How Many of Us Got Fined by BLM for No Reason This Year?

ASH417 · Post by **ASH417** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:14 pm

Hey All - My name's Emmanuel - I'm a Burner currently residing in Portland, OR. This is my first post on ePlaya .
I'll cut to the chase of this post: I'd like to start a class action lawsuit against BLM for ticketing event goers for no reason.
My story: I got ticketed when exiting the event on Monday - I was driving up 7:00 with the intent of turning left at the last street then joining the exodus on 6:00 - I was pulled over by a BLM officer who informed me that I can't drive down that street without authorization. No signs were posted, no exit instructions were given, and there was no way for me to know that what I was doing was "unauthorized."
I refused to sign the ticket.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that this exact thing happened to other Burners during the exodus, and that BLM spent the entire event racking up tens [or hundreds?] of thousands in fines for nonexistent infractions that were invented by BLM officers on the spot [or planned by BLM before the event].
In short, I'm paying that $125 fine over my dead body, and I'd love to sue BLM for illegally fining event goers for infractions that were impossible for us to know about. If this sort of thing happened to you or any of your friends, or if anyone has experience with Burning Man related lawsuits, please contact me at [email protected].
Much Love!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:38 pm

Can't figure where you were when you use the word up.. Unless you went out bound on 7:00.. In that case you may have missed the last street.. The next road way was a service street.. I was heading to that street but stoped and asked.. Was told to turn left where I was. It was the outer ring road.. The dust was realy blowing...

There should be more to your story.. Why were you ticketed if you were confussed.

Artemis · Post by **Artemis** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:38 pm

how fast were you driving?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:55 pm

on perimeter, on Sunday anyway.......we were stopping and turning folks heading out 7:00 to the service gate and showing them where to go.
If you got out past the "M" street, it was assumed you were making a play for the service entrance, or LEO gate. But, I had no information at to illegality or ticketing.
you speed may well have mattered, too. They were getting down on speeders......remember 5 mph.
It's posted, and in the "rule" book, so, no excuses.

ASH417 · Post by **ASH417** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:56 pm

I believe I had just passed K. Even if I had passed the last road, which I hadn't, no signs were posted and no exit instructions were given to event goers. I wasn't ticketed for speeding. I'm trying to make out the pig's chicken scratch - I believe the offense reads, "violation of closure order / public use violation - vehicle." I'm a little more interested in responses from people who would like to help than responses from people who would like to play devil's advocate. I know that I have a case, and that we have a good shot at a class action suit if this happened to others. This isn't me trying to get out of a ticket - if I'd been fined for an actual violation, I'd bite the bullet and pay it - my issue is that I didn't violate any regulations of which I could reasonably have been aware.

Artemis · Post by **Artemis** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:01 pm

I'm a little more interested in responses from people who would like to help than responses from people who would like to play devil's advocate

I was interested in the information. Thanks for letting us know that it wasn't an issue of speeding.

I suspect that if you go to court it'll get dropped or reduced.

Have you reached out to Lawyers for Burners? Have you completed the LEO feedback form?
http://sites.google.com/site/lawyersfor ... dback-form

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:09 pm

I think, at least some of the "devils advocate" stuff, comes from wanting to make sure we (I) would be supporting someone with a valid grievance......

many times, someone will make a statement, (take yours for example) with limited details.
And then, we find out, they were doing 70 mph.....or were outside the trash fence, or something like that.

for me, I was not arguing or trying to poke holes in your issue, just making sure I understand it all before deciding to play along.

there are many nuances to the laws.......and, a missing sign may not make it ok, or excuse anything.
Also, I'm pretty sure, it's clearly spelled out, where to enter and exit the event, in the literature.
Signs may not be necessary, legally.
I just don't know.

ASH417 · Post by **ASH417** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:10 pm

@ Artemis - thanks for that! I'm filling out the form today, and I'll check out Lawyers for Burners.

@ Ygmir - valid points. I usually choose my battles carefully, and I've decided to fight this one tooth and nail, even though it was only $125. This time around, it's the principle.

Artemis · Post by **Artemis** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:13 pm

Please do let us know how it goes.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:18 pm

I salute a person who stands on principle............thank you for doing so.
If, indeed you can prove it erroneous and beat it, good on ya.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:18 pm

The title of the thread looks as if it could be a real rant by a disgrutled participant. You seemed so much saner on the second post.

fwiw

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:09 pm

If you can't handle the devils advocate here, how will you handle a prosecuting attorney?

Homiesinheaven · Post by **Homiesinheaven** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:33 pm

Emmanuel, do you really want to go through the headache of a lawsuit over $125? why dont you just dispute it in court instead of rallying people to sue? is your mental health really worth fighting this tooth and nail? do you really "love to sue"?

ASH417 · Post by **ASH417** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:37 pm

I'm in no way sue happy - I wrote that I "would" love to sue, not that I "do" love to sue - there's a huge difference. However, if I don't find others with similar experiences from this year's Burn, I'll contest my own ticket and wash my hands clean of the ordeal.
Ultimately, this isn't about me - it's about putting the message out to law enforcement that they can't run around fining Burners for absolutely no reason. We've given law enforcement far too much power at Burning Man - we have the numbers - it's time to fight back.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:12 am

I heard a story (second hand) of someone getting a ticket for "disturbing the peace" for heckling one of Pershing County's finest with a megaphone. It might be bullshit, though.

There was a guy at about 4:45 and A playing "Virgin, no virgin" where he tried to guess of participants passing by were virgins or not to Burning Man. He told some member of my camp that he had to shut it down when he got a ticket from a deputy for calling the deputy a virgin.

Sounds like bullshit to me but the latest couple of crops of Pershing deputies has me believing it might possibly be so.

It sounds hilarious, though. Getting a ticket at Burning Man for disturbing the peace with a megaphone.

moonrise · Post by **moonrise** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:16 am

*Give 'em an inch they'll take a mile

*Winning in court is AWESOME! Such a rush!

*Reno Gazzette Journal has front page article...bmorg is AFRAID of complaining about excessive law enforcement so WE the Reno Gazzette Journal and other journalists are going to do it for them!

*Sadly if the bottom feeding, desperate for money authorities cannot get to write tickets and make arrests for goodness knows what, it could, MAYBE jepordize the festival and it's permits (and heck if a few people pay the idiot tax it keeps them monsters happy and away from the hard core partiers..until they develope vision goggles that can look through RV walls!..hahaha)

*Happily the towns and cities around the region would SCREAM bloody Murder! Loss of tourist dollars! (and some of the wealthy casino owning kids, politicians and business owners who GO TO THE BURN in good ol' boy Nevada have PULL big time behind the scenes)

*BLM... even they can be backed off, but never 100%

*The government is like a giant marshmallow...keep gently pressing and pressing and eventually your finger will break on through

*They are getting sneaky, made the mistake of asking one on an ATV a question when I first arrived in street clothes...he thought I was a delivery guy and said "We don't follow their fucking laws and No I don't know where ____ ____ is" me: Ok, thanks for the help...I'm sure I'll find it eventually" (abort abort dickhead alert!) and away from that zone I went...sober but aware they ARE hateful...and the 3? that MAY be there for fun...tell your buddies to cut it out! and Stop it! lmfao...you can't, they'll rat you out to their captain...it's in their nature to be punishers and squealers...how else can they get promoted in such an ugly job?

*I say sue but no one will join a class action....nevertheless, it's such a rush to bend a marshmallow, even if alone.

*I think it would be fun if EVERYONE gave EVERYTHING to eachother in ziplocks...it would drive the cops nuts keeping track of all the chapsticks condoms, lighters, snacks, gum, candy, food, et cetera and such...hilarious!

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:34 am

moonrise, one of the problems in a confrontation with law enforcement is that a LEO is trained to be in control of the situation. Then there are personality issues involved, too. Sometimes it pays to listen to WHAT is being said and not how it is being said if the tone gets you emotionally riled up.

Maybe before the officer has a chance to say much, you say something like ... "can you help me? Is this the way to Gate Road? I got disoriented in the dust back there, the street signs are gone, and I am not sure where I am." might help you out in a pinch. Taking that approach has got my ass out of a sling before even when I knew I was wrong. It gives the officer a way through the situation while remaining in control (officer has an opportunity to direct the citizen as to the proper way to go). Helping a citizen who is asking for help is clearly within their job description and if it does go to court and if you testify that you were lost and asked the officer for assistance before you were ticketed, it might stand a better chance of getting dropped, depending on the judge.

The key is not getting into a control battle with the officer as in my experience, they can make your day a lot worse than you can make theirs. Present the officer with a clear way out of the situation, if you can, where they can do their job, remain in control of the situation, and not have to write a citation. Get pissy with the officer and you are probably not going to get much slack.

ASH417 · Post by **ASH417** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:40 am

@ geekster: Well put. A friend once told me that law enforcement officers are trained in two modes: Help and harm. The goal is to effectively activate the former if you're afraid that the exchange might go in the other direction.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:46 pm

give 'em a break, they are only there to help

Fire_Moose · Post by **Fire_Moose** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:17 pm

Don't they like arrest people who refuse to sign the ticket?

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:57 pm

I'll bet dollars to pesos that you were past the edge of the city headed for the gate on the service road, that there were signs you ignored, and that you noticed the large queue of cars to your left and thought you were skirting that quagmire. I'll give similar odds that your being cited rather than kindly redirected to the exodus line had a lot to do with your attitude when the officer stopped you. Here's a tip: if you call a LEO "pig," you are going to get a ticket. He will find something to cite you for, if necessary. Try calling him "Sir" a lot. He likes that.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:16 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:I'll bet dollars to pesos that you were past the edge of the city headed for the gate on the service road, that there were signs you ignored,..

sounds more a typical hangover with a wake-and-bake chaser. tweaked on meth, people notice everything, including the paranoia of stuff thats not there

1durphul · Post by **1durphul** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:00 pm

geekster wrote:
The key is not getting into a control battle with the officer as in my experience, they can make your day a lot worse than you can make theirs. Present the officer with a clear way out of the situation, if you can, where they can do their job, remain in control of the situation, and not have to write a citation. Get pissy with the officer and you are probably not going to get much slack.

This is all great info for a normal situation, however on Sunday mid-day they were clearly targeting departing vehicles for special enforcement. I was camped at 7:00 and D, and in the 5-6 blocks I had to go to get to the exodus road I saw no less than 5 vehicles pulled over, and even had a car two vehicles behind me pulled over as well. And this wasn't on the outter ring road, I was on H road.

1durphul · Post by **1durphul** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:03 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:I'll bet dollars to pesos that you were past the edge of the city headed for the gate on the service road, that there were signs you ignored, and that you noticed the large queue of cars to your left and thought you were skirting that quagmire. I'll give similar odds that your being cited rather than kindly redirected to the exodus line had a lot to do with your attitude when the officer stopped you. Here's a tip: if you call a LEO "pig," you are going to get a ticket. He will find something to cite you for, if necessary. Try calling him "Sir" a lot. He likes that.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I can tell you that between 6:30 and 7:00 I saw multiple vehicles pulled over between F and Kyoto on Sunday mid-day. This story rings true to what I saw.

I'm sure BLM is well aware that LEO feedback forms are hard to fill out once you've packed up and are on your way out and unlikely to drop by center camp.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:10 pm

Have you seen your lawyer yet? This is the wrong place to get legal advice.

A class action lawsuit is one that is filed on behalf of a group of people, not just one person. And you may have made a mistake by not signing your ticket, since you now don't have any material proof.

Good luck.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:12 pm

1durphul wrote:
geekster wrote:
The key is not getting into a control battle with the officer as in my experience, they can make your day a lot worse than you can make theirs. Present the officer with a clear way out of the situation, if you can, where they can do their job, remain in control of the situation, and not have to write a citation. Get pissy with the officer and you are probably not going to get much slack.
This is all great info for a normal situation, however on Sunday mid-day they were clearly targeting departing vehicles for special enforcement. I was camped at 7:00 and D, and in the 5-6 blocks I had to go to get to the exodus road I saw no less than 5 vehicles pulled over, and even had a car two vehicles behind me pulled over as well. And this wasn't on the outter ring road, I was on H road.

It seem to me with all this: It didn't happen to me but I saw/heard>> Only like five six people come on this board to say they were stopped.. The way these thread are written 1000s of tickets were cramed up poor burners asses.. Still only a few have anything to write about.. These pissy threads are a yearly things.. What?? gives ya something to choke your chicken over..

1durphul · Post by **1durphul** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:21 pm

unjonharley wrote: It seem to me with all this: It didn't happen to me but I saw/heard>> Only like five six people come on this board to say they were stopped.. The way these thread are written 1000s of tickets were cramed up poor burners asses.. Still only a few have anything to write about.. These pissy threads are a yearly things.. What?? gives ya something to choke your chicken over..

Hearing is one thing. Seeing is another. I SAW this happening, and this was my seventh year. This was markedly different LEO behavior than my first 5 years. (I saw this same thing to a lesser extent along the outer ring road last year, but it seemed to be in greater volume this year.)

Let's also take into account that eplaya's population is pretty small, and that 5 or 6 people complaining about this really could be a representative sample of the overall community. Let's say that there, in total, 200 active users of Eplaya (active being people who read it once a week minimum.) 5 or 6 people create new accounts to post about their LEO produced frustration, and then immediately about half of the active users roll their eyes and start playing devils advocate. 5 or 6 people stop posting and don't bother coming back.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:40 pm

1durphul wrote:
unjonharley wrote: It seem to me with all this: It didn't happen to me but I saw/heard>> Only like five six people come on this board to say they were stopped.. The way these thread are written 1000s of tickets were cramed up poor burners asses.. Still only a few have anything to write about.. These pissy threads are a yearly things.. What?? gives ya something to choke your chicken over..

Hearing is one thing. Seeing is another. I SAW this happening, and this was my seventh year. This was markedly different LEO behavior than my first 5 years. (I saw this same thing to a lesser extent along the outer ring road last year, but it seemed to be in greater volume this year.)

Let's also take into account that eplaya's population is pretty small, and that 5 or 6 people complaining about this really could be a representative sample of the overall community. Let's say that there, in total, 200 active users of Eplaya (active being people who read it once a week minimum.) 5 or 6 people create new accounts to post about their LEO produced frustration, and then immediately about half of the active users roll their eyes and start playing devils advocate. 5 or 6 people stop posting and don't bother coming back.

What did you "see" happen?? Did you stop and fined out what was going on?? Were these people in there legal right?? Did fine out if they were stopped for no reason at all??

One hell of a lot more people read the eplaya than post.. If all that many were ticketed for no reason They would be finding a place (eplaya) to bitch about it.. The OP in this thread refusses to tell the whole store of why he got the ticket in the first place.. Then tells he would not sign for the ticket.. The would land him in jail.. His as many tale told are ???????

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:40 pm

I'm just waiting for the stats to be posted. The nature of probability being what it is, there's just no way of sorting it out because we don't know how representative the sample of incidents seen by one individual is.

1durphul · Post by **1durphul** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:50 pm

unjonharley wrote:Then tells he would not sign for the ticket.. The would land him in jail.. His as many tale told are ???????

I too found that part a little hard to swallow until I considered the context and circumstances... this was on the playa and the officer was undoubtedly on a revenue run, not there to actually arrest people (and take away from revenue creation time.) Since an arrest means hauling the person somewhere for housing, paperwork, etc...

Besides, I'm nearly certain that the signature on tickets is just a promise to appear. Not signing it doesn't mean you don't have to appear or pay the ticket.