Burningman gun policy, unlawful & dangerous!

gunsmith · Post by **gunsmith** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:44 pm

[quote="caveatlector"]
As I've mentioned in another place on this board, I have experience dealing with unwelcome firearms at events, and I can assure you that unless the people you're dealing with are completely unbalanced, simply asking gun owners to leave their guns at the door or in police custody does actually work.
that concerned about crazed gun-nuts. Maybe your problem actually is that there isn't enough gun control.
I might see if I can volunteer for gate next year...[/quote]

Well! congrats! you're getting better at staying on topic. Now ( for the 5th or 6th time ) It would be illegal to "leave you're guns at the door" & unless a real crime is committed, it would also be illegal to leave it with the police.
Bringing a gun to burningman isn't enough of a crime for the police to confiscate- and the police could not and wouldn't want the job of babysitting firearms. Do you get it yet? Do you understand? official policy is illegal and dangerous.

I have provided videos of police officers accidentally firing their handguns, Despite your assurances, I think cops are better trained then you and other gate folks. You do know what dangerous means?

What it means is BM policy will get people killed. Dangerous policy gets people killed. Again please understand me. Danger + firearm = dead.

Again, to make myself perfectly clear, it would be in violation of numerous federal and state codes for attendees to leave/hand over/surrender their firearms ... the only possible exception would ( maybe ) be a federal firearms licensee - you don't have an FFL do you?
is anyone at the gate an FFL?

Are you, as a possible gate volunteer, willing to spend a long federal stretch in Leavenworth fed penitentiary?

That means "do you want to go to prison"? Prison is where you'll be heading with the policy you'll be enforcing.

The policy you and BM propose is unlawful/illegal/against the law.
That means you could go to jail.

Don't blame me for these unfair illogical laws, I'm against them.
Control freaks, people with control issues, came up with this racist unconstitutional laws. ... not me

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:54 pm

when can we start the "thread drift" for reals?..............

gunsmith · Post by **gunsmith** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:07 pm

[quote="teardropper"]I really don't understand why you keep saying people, 'specially those damn hippies, are in danger, and I assume you mean in danger of being shot, for enforcing the rules at BM? It seems that there is some mention of it, at least, in training. But don't concentrate on that. Tell me why there is any danger in finding and asking for a gun be checked at the gate?

The implication is that gun owners are a dangerous sort, who will shoot you if they don't like the rules.[/quote]

Sorry, I really like hippies-if you're a hippie I recommend a great out of print book "guitar army" I think John Sinclair wrote it. ... some damm hippie stole it from me or I would send it to ya. ;-)

anyway, as I said in an earlier post ( I think # 47 ) loaded guns are dangerous, even cops have accidents....oh here it is - check out these vids and tell me that it couldn't happen ( a gun being shot accidentally) at a crowded gate at 3am with a bunch of party people running around?

Really, it is a bad idea for gate volunteers to have an attendee "hand over" their firearm for safe keeping.

This is what happens when you un holster your sidearm

another case of a well trained person un holstering her side arm

if these kind of accidents happen to these trained people, imagine what could happen at 3am while surrounded by a bunch of drunks, trippers, stoners and untrained people insisting that the loaded gun be "handed over"

Really- the only safe alternative is telling them to turn around ( please tun around ) not "hand it over"
_________________

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:10 pm

We need a custom "Flogging a Dead Unicorn" emoticon.

gunsmith · Post by **gunsmith** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:20 pm

teardropper, the safest place for a loaded gun is a good holster.
The most common time for a gun accident is un holstering. Anyone who has been at the gate during a busy time and anyone who has real training would tell you the same thing.
It isn't just dangerous, it is EXTREMELY dangerous.

The gate has many distractions, there are people all over, a deadly accident happens in the fraction of a second, there are no discharge barrels at the gate and anyone who thinks they can safely accept a gun at the gate obviously isn't qualified to do so.

Policy is being written by someone that has zero understanding of the law and zero understanding of common safety practices in place at ranges/police stations/armed transport centers.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:20 pm

I bet Elorrum could do it.......she's a genius.

I had a unicorn on my MV, well, an almost birthed unicorn, that is.......

gunsmith · Post by **gunsmith** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:25 pm

[quote="stretch80"]Gunsmith, I am sorry you hate me!!! I have never met you and I feel sorry for you...

Wow[/quote]

I don't hate you, really, I just dislike your avatar.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:02 pm

Mosin wrote:We need a custom "Flogging a Dead Unicorn" emoticon.

I'm going to vote for Sparkle Pony.

caveatlector · Post by **caveatlector** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:05 pm

Well! congrats! you're getting better at staying on topic. Now ( for the 5th or 6th time ) It would be illegal to "leave you're guns at the door" & unless a real crime is committed, it would also be illegal to leave it with the police.

Wow. You really do keep flogging this dead sparkle-unicorn, don't you? I'm happy to give it a few more stripes for good measure since I hate these kinds of nags.

I was speaking more metaphorically when I said "Leave your Guns at the door." Right beside where you left your worries, prejudices and other useless baggage as you enter the event.

Let's suggest that the BMorg establishes a new policy: Don't come with your guns at all. If your guns are found they're not confiscated-- you're just asked to leave and come back after you've secured the weapons off site. If you can't/won't do that, you can't attend the event.

Last time I checked, your laws permit that kind of action in private events such as Burning Man.

As to whether I'd be willing to go to jail for someone else's rules: Absolutely not. If I were a person doing car inspections and I found a cache of firearms I'd call the closest LEOs in to deal with the situation as they see fit. Maybe with tasers. Or hugs. I couldn't care less.

How about that? Does that make you happy?

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:11 pm

I guess that just about settles it; this topic is over. Nothin' but the, what?... the sparkle ponies left?

Let's all say, "finally".

bluesbob · Post by **bluesbob** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:28 am

jkisha wrote:It's beyond my why anyone would want to bring a gun to Burning Man.

JK

It's the only thought that keeps crossing my mind when I read in this forum.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:11 am

jkisha wrote:On it's face, I can agree with that statement. I guess the part I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around is finding myself in such a situation that I would need a gun for protection.

I carry a firearm on a regular basis. Based on my experience of needing my firearm in specific situations, I can assure that the time you realize you are in a situation where you find yourself needing a firearm is not the time to be thinking, "Oh damn, wish I had a firearm with me".

The situations arise quite literally out of nowhere and tend to be completely random in the nature of their occurrence. As in, there is no sign or warning indicator that you will be in potential need of a firearm for defense if you proceed any further.

I usually don't go to places where I would be in fear for my life; and I am pretty aware when out. Not that I avoid going places I have to go, it's just places I have to go are pretty unlikely to put me at risk.

Are you sure? Have you ever stopped to research the data on when and where most violent crime happens? Its not the stereotypical places you see depicted on tv.

There are certain activities like going to an ATM at night, that I will avoid if possible, and I take other sensible precautions. I doubt that I would do anything differently if I carried a gun. I just don't see the need for it.

And you know what? I absolutely and unequivocally support your right to choose not to own or carry a firearm for the purpose of self defense.

Where the problem arises in many conversations like this is you taking your preconceived ideas concerning the issue and believing that your opinion is the only correct response to the issue. In this case:
"Well I do not think I will ever need a gun so therefore no one anywhere should have one either."
You have drawn your line in the sand and refuse to hear or acknowledge a different opinion on the subject.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:38 am

gunsmith wrote:teardropper, the safest place for a loaded gun is a good holster.
The most common time for a gun accident is un holstering. Anyone who has been at the gate during a busy time and anyone who has real training would tell you the same thing.
It isn't just dangerous, it is EXTREMELY dangerous.

The gate has many distractions, there are people all over, a deadly accident happens in the fraction of a second, there are no discharge barrels at the gate and anyone who thinks they can safely accept a gun at the gate obviously isn't qualified to do so.

Policy is being written by someone that has zero understanding of the law and zero understanding of common safety practices in place at ranges/police stations/armed transport centers.

Ya know what dude...

WE FUCKING GET IT. YOU DISAGREE WITH BMORG'S GUN POLICY. YOU ARE THE MIGHTY CHAMPION OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT. WE DO NOT NEED TO HEAR, AGAIN, ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT YOU FIND IT TO UNHOLSTER YOUR WEAPON IN A SAFE MANNER. WE ARE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE. WE UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU SAID THE FIRST FUCKING TIME YOU SAID IT. POSTING THE SAME GOD DAMN SHIT OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE THREAD IS NOT NECESSARY.

If you had bothered to pay attention, the proper path to a solution and to properly air your grievances concerning BMorg policy was posted very early in this thread by AntiM:

So Gunsmith, you say confiscation is illegal, and probably correctly. You volunteering to rectify the situation? Newsflash: eplaya is the wrong venue. If you want the BMORG's attention, you have to contact headquarters directly. If you want a lively discussion leading almost nowhere, you're in the right place.

Burning Man can deny entry to those carrying firearms, just as some churches and schools choose to do. How this is done is always a matter of legal technicalities and obviously, some debate.

You, and that's YOU GUNSMITH, have been a stellar participant in creating a conversation thread that has gone exactly nowhere, that has not shifted anyone's opinion on the subject and has not marshaled any support for your cause.

In fact, your insistence on simply beating the horse to death by simply repeating yourself in every reply has alienated you from potential support by many of the people that might actually agree with you.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:27 am

caveatlector wrote:This is such a bizarre conversation to me.

I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment, etc and even I find it bizarre.

First off, why the hell would someone bring a gun to Burning Man? I'm pretty sure the event that Burning Man was that allowed for displays of firepower went away nearly 2 decades ago.

For some, its not about bringing a gun to Burning Man, its about having a means of self defense and protection for the drive to Burning Man.

For example, my round trip is just shy of 4000 miles in a big slow converted school bus. Onboard that vehicle is several thousand dollars worth of camera equipment, generators, sound gear, a considerable amount of cash and much more important to me, my wife and one of our closest friends.

My drive takes me across the southwestern United States, which is turning into a war zone along the Mexican border. Property crimes (theft) are a major concern, especially given the economic downturn we are currently experiencing, along every point of the route we take. Rest stops, the side lots at truck stops (where RV's can overnight), the outer rings of big box store parking lots and similar locations are all considered hot spots for criminal activity including armed robbery.

I have never experienced a situation at Burning Man that made me want a firearm, but I have been thankful to have one on the drive in or the drive home before. Due to the rules of the event, rules I respect because, hey, at the end of the day it is their party and they get to make the rules, I arrange for safe and secure storage of my firearm(s) for the duration of the event.

Secondly, your hosts have asked that you leave your guns at home. Same as bringing your pets. Or air-burst explosives. Don't be a dick and bring those things.

Exactly. Their party, their rules. If a person feels they have a legitimate beef with one of the rules, they should get into contact with the Org directly to discuss said issues in a mature, constructive manner.

so don't feel like you're letting your guard down by leaving your killing tools at home.

See... that's an issue for me. A firearm is no more a killing tool than a sledgehammer or a car is. Our glorious healthcare system in the US kills a much larger number of people annually due to medical negligence than criminal activity with firearms do, yet we do not hear people calling doctors and hospitals death merchants. Well, I call them that, but hey, that's just me.

Why would you do such a dick move as to bring a gun to the Burn?

Well, I can say with some accuracy that there are a very large number of firearms present on the Playa at every Burning Man event. Sure there have reportedly been some very isolated incidents over the years concerning firearms, but the reality on the playa goes hand in hand with the reality of the default world, you have much more to fear and worry about in terms of personal safety from a drunk driver behind the wheel of a mutant vehicle, one of those annoying scooter things or even on a bicycle than you ever have to fear from a responsible, legal gun owner that has secured their weapon somewhere deep inside their vehicle prior to entering the event.

Does that make it right? No, because it is still breaking the clearly established rules that were agreed to when the ticket was purchased by the individual.

Is this some sort of Yankee cultural thing that I'm just never going to get because I live in a saner, safer country?

Like I said, I'm very pro 2nd Amendment and have been a licensed firearms dealer for over 20 years now. I make my living related to the proper and safe use of and the carrying of firearms.

Even with all that, I don't fucking get how rabid some gun owners get down here. I went off a little bit on Jkisha up there, and overstated his actual point of view (I know he is not an actual hardline anti-gun person), but its fun to play keyboard warrior somedays.

The outright and fanatical paranoia demonstrated by some within the US gun culture is truly ludicrous in its intensity. The run up to the 2008 election was jaw dropping at the fervor that was created over guns due to Obama getting nominated. My biggest regret from all of that was not stockpiling a few select items to rake in the massive profits off the paranoid stupid people that were fighting each other to pay 5 times the retail price for things like AR-15's and AK's.

Now that pricing has stabilized, you see a lot of these idiots trying to sell off part f their stockpile they amassed (probably to pay off the massive credit card debt they racked up in their panic) for what they paid for it. You seem them at the gun shows trying to sell a rifle for $1500 that every dealer in the hall has brand new on the table for $800 again.

But I digress...

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:16 am

CapSmashy wrote: A firearm is no more a killing tool than a sledgehammer or a car is.

You know, I have appreciated your posts here. And understand why you, and other clear thinking individuals feel the need to be armed. But to use this tired analogy is not so good for your argument.

If a gun is not for shooting, killing, if you will, and sledgehammer can kill, too, then why don't you carry a sledgehammer? Or run into them with your killing car? Because they're not as good at killing. You carry a gun because, when you feel the need, it is far more efficient at killing.

I need to *plonk* this fucking thread...

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:38 am

teardropper wrote:You know, I have appreciated your posts here. And understand why you, and other clear thinking individuals feel the need to be armed. But to use this tired analogy is not so good for your argument.

Despite its design features, a firearm is not any more dangerous sitting on a table than any other tool or item you choose to place next to it.

What makes a firearm, a car, a sledgehammer, a carbon arc torch, etc dangerous is the person that picks it up and the manner in which they use it.

If a gun is not for shooting, killing, if you will, and sledgehammer can kill, too, then why don't you carry a sledgehammer? Or run into them with your killing car? Because they're not as good at killing. You carry a gun because, when you feel the need, it is far more efficient at killing.

Absolutely. A firearm is one of the best designed tools for the role of providing immediate self defense. Using a sledgehammer in such a role is no different than using a firearm as a hammer.

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:43 am

ygmir wrote:when can we start the "thread drift" for reals?..............

What have you got in mind, yggie?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:07 am

teardropper wrote:
ygmir wrote:when can we start the "thread drift" for reals?..............
What have you got in mind, yggie?

I like cheese

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:43 am

CapSmashy wrote:What makes a firearm, a car, a sledgehammer, a carbon arc torch, etc dangerous is the person that picks it up and the manner in which they use it.

I swear I'll think about cheese...

The purpose of a sledge hammer is for Cool Hand Luke to break rocks. The purpose of a car is for Cool Hand Luke to escape. The purpose of a carbon arc torch is to cut off Cool Hand Luke's manacles. The purpose of a gun is to kill Cool Hand Luke.

Mmmm, grilled cheese sandwiches... with bacon.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:43 am

Mmmmmmmmmm... cheese.....

I have a secret addiction to a fine havarti with dill added.

Token · Post by **Token** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:53 am

I like cheese.

This is a gun thread.

I really like cheese.

I must like guns too.

I don't know if I can handle a gun and cheese at the same time ...

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:58 am

CapSmashy wrote:Mmmmmmmmmm... cheese.....

I have a secret addiction to a fine havarti with dill added.

I knew it... a cheese head.

It's been fun CapSmashy. Really.

Now, about that cheese...

caveatlector · Post by **caveatlector** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:02 am

CapSmashy wrote:The purpose of a sledge hammer is for Cool Hand Luke to break rocks. The purpose of a car is for Cool Hand Luke to escape. The purpose of a carbon arc torch is to cut off Cool Hand Luke's manacles. The purpose of a gun is to kill Cool Hand Luke.

I think, what we have here, is a failure to communicate... Our love of cheese.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:19 am

for breakfast, I browned red cabbage, mushrooms, onion and, mixed them with eggs.
then, crisp fried some sharp cheddar............

all,

"Cause I like cheese"............

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:21 am

A fine hand made well aged super super sharp cheddar... melted on homemade gravenstein apple pie... and french vanilla ice cream...

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:24 am

may I eat some of your pie?

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:36 am

YGMIR!!!!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:38 am

wuh?

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:06 am

What can I say... he does Cullinaryingus with such flair... How can one resist??

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:15 am

I love you, Smashy.

Cheese - I prefer a nice, hard cheese, like pecorino romano.
I do recommend Jarlsberg as a great snacking cheese.
Not so much the soft, stinky cheeses. ugh