Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

[Thecatman]

like the ruger sp101

I really like the Ruger GP100, but, I side with gyre, that a lighter gun is easier for concealment. Especially since I wear shorts most of the time in the summer. If I carried a revolver, I'd look into a Charter Arms "Off Duty" .38special or S&W "Bodygaurd".

[ygmir]

like the ruger sp101

I really like the Ruger GP100, but, I side with gyre, that a lighter gun is easier for concealment. Especially since I wear shorts most of the time in the summer. If I carried a revolver, I'd look into a Charter Arms "Off Duty" .38special or S&W "Bodygaurd".

I have, and like, a Charter Arms "Bulldog".
very good cartridge, IMHO.

[Elderberry]

Dog bites and children

* 50% of dog attacks involved children under 12 years old
* 82% of dog bites treated in the emergency room involved children under 15 years old
* 70% of dog-bite fatalities occurred among children under 10 years old
* Bite rates are dramatically higher among children who are 5 to 9 years old
* Unsupervised newborns were 370 times more likely than an adult to be killed by a dog
* 65% of bites among children occur to the head and neck
* Boys under the age of 15 years old are bitten more often than girls of the same age

I can appreciate these stats. When I was in kindergarten I was attacked by my neighbors german shepard and bit on the left side of my face resulting in a number of puncture wounds. One missed my left eye by millimeters, leaving the most visible scar. With no ems in my town then, I vividly remember my Dad driving me to the hospital, cursing at lights. Once there I was immed. taken to surgery and then spent a few days in the hosp. recovering.

It took me many years to outgrow most, but not all of my fear of dogs. While I am not as scared of shepards anymore, I think pitt breeds have no worth in society and as 4 legged weapons should be regulated, and banned accordingly, as such.

For the most part, I feel the same way that you do about Pit Bulls. HOWEVER, I have neighbors that have one and it is the friendliest dog you could imagine. Unfortunately, it's not the dog or the breed, it's the owner and how they raise them. I saw a PBS special on gangs and how they train and use Pit Bulls as guard dogs and first alert against law enforcement and raids. Plus there are a lot of people in Los Angeles that breed and raise them for fighting.

It's unfortunate that the entire breed has to be maligned because of irresponsible owners.

JK

[ygmir]

Dog bites and children

* 50% of dog attacks involved children under 12 years old
* 82% of dog bites treated in the emergency room involved children under 15 years old
* 70% of dog-bite fatalities occurred among children under 10 years old
* Bite rates are dramatically higher among children who are 5 to 9 years old
* Unsupervised newborns were 370 times more likely than an adult to be killed by a dog
* 65% of bites among children occur to the head and neck
* Boys under the age of 15 years old are bitten more often than girls of the same age

I can appreciate these stats. When I was in kindergarten I was attacked by my neighbors german shepard and bit on the left side of my face resulting in a number of puncture wounds. One missed my left eye by millimeters, leaving the most visible scar. With no ems in my town then, I vividly remember my Dad driving me to the hospital, cursing at lights. Once there I was immed. taken to surgery and then spent a few days in the hosp. recovering.

It took me many years to outgrow most, but not all of my fear of dogs. While I am not as scared of shepards anymore, I think pitt breeds have no worth in society and as 4 legged weapons should be regulated, and banned accordingly, as such.

For the most part, I feel the same way that you do about Pit Bulls. HOWEVER, I have neighbors that have one and it is the friendliest dog you could imagine. Unfortunately, it's not the dog or the breed, it's the owner and how they raise them. I saw a PBS special on gangs and how they train and use Pit Bulls as guard dogs and first alert against law enforcement and raids. Plus there are a lot of people in Los Angeles that breed and raise them for fighting.

It's unfortunate that the entire breed has to be maligned because of irresponsible owners.

JK

yeah, look what happened to the (fill in your political party of choice)........

[Sail Man]

Dog bites and children

* 50% of dog attacks involved children under 12 years old
* 82% of dog bites treated in the emergency room involved children under 15 years old
* 70% of dog-bite fatalities occurred among children under 10 years old
* Bite rates are dramatically higher among children who are 5 to 9 years old
* Unsupervised newborns were 370 times more likely than an adult to be killed by a dog
* 65% of bites among children occur to the head and neck
* Boys under the age of 15 years old are bitten more often than girls of the same age

I can appreciate these stats. When I was in kindergarten I was attacked by my neighbors german shepard and bit on the left side of my face resulting in a number of puncture wounds. One missed my left eye by millimeters, leaving the most visible scar. With no ems in my town then, I vividly remember my Dad driving me to the hospital, cursing at lights. Once there I was immed. taken to surgery and then spent a few days in the hosp. recovering.

It took me many years to outgrow most, but not all of my fear of dogs. While I am not as scared of shepards anymore, I think pitt breeds have no worth in society and as 4 legged weapons should be regulated, and banned accordingly, as such.

For the most part, I feel the same way that you do about Pit Bulls. HOWEVER, I have neighbors that have one and it is the friendliest dog you could imagine. Unfortunately, it's not the dog or the breed, it's the owner and how they raise them. I saw a PBS special on gangs and how they train and use Pit Bulls as guard dogs and first alert against law enforcement and raids. Plus there are a lot of people in Los Angeles that breed and raise them for fighting.

It's unfortunate that the entire breed has to be maligned because of irresponsible owners.

JK

The drug gangs here in the D do the same thing. The breed, and/or it's derivatives have been responsible for most if not all of the fatal maulings in this area for the last few years. They are also trained here for dog fighting and while I can't disagree with your assertion that they can be very gentle animals, I am afraid that if this "weaponizing" of the breed continues, it's gene's will stain the pool causing an increase in aggressiveness all thoughout the blood line.

And as Ygmir pointed out, one need only look at DC to see how terrible this would become

[Thecatman]

I have, and like, a Charter Arms "Bulldog".
very good cartridge, IMHO.

Wikipedia shows a Bulldog in its definition of a 44 special. The gun shown looks like an earlier version: the grips look like wood, the ejector rod is exposed etc.
If I got a revolver for carrying, I'd prefer a DAO.

[ygmir]

I have, and like, a Charter Arms "Bulldog".
very good cartridge, IMHO.

Wikipedia shows a Bulldog in its definition of a 44 special. The gun shown looks like an earlier version: the grips look like wood, the ejector rod is exposed etc.
If I got a revolver for carrying, I'd prefer a DAO.

you can "bob" the hammer, if that's a concern.
yes, it is .44 sp.
for self defense, I like girth.......but, that's just me.
I also like the Walther PPK/s in .380, if you need it to be flat.

To me, it's more about, what you can hit something with, than, a few ounces or small size and shape differences........

you can have the coolest, newest, high tech, easy to draw and conceal thing there is, but, if you can't hit anything with it....well.......

in the old west, it was not usually the fastest to draw that won, it was the most accurate..........

So much of this debate is a matter of preference, anyway.
Everyone thinks what they have, or want, is "the best"........

all, this, of course, is subjective, and, I can only say, applies to me.
YMMV

[Thecatman]

To me, it's more about, what you can hit something with, than, a few ounces or small size and shape differences........

you can have the coolest, newest, high tech, easy to draw and conceal thing there is, but, if you can't hit anything with it....well.......

in the old west, it was not usually the fastest to draw that won, it was the most accurate..........

I agree! Like you've posted in the past, a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 44.
I was'nt degrading the 44spl. I know nothing about them except what I read on wikipedia.
I have my opinons and ideas as to what I prefer, or would like, but, I'm always open to suggestions. I don't want to appear that I think my way is right or best, which is why I may ask a question. I may be 51, and somewhat set in my ways, but, I always appreciate other opinons and ideas.

[ygmir]

I took no negativity from your statement.......I was just sharing my humble opinions........
we agree on the big stuff, and, that's what counts......to me, anyway.

[Thecatman]

The big stuff matters alot.
Especialy the 2nd ammendment.
I'm tickled pink that my wife has finally concluded that she too should consider getting a CCW. A double murder in Sparks over the weekend; we, along with several neighbors are having issues with another neighbor etc.
I've always been pro gun, even after an accident, umm carelessness , put a 22lr through my right leg 30 some odd years ago, but i've never felt so pro gun than I have in the last few years.
Hope that makes sense.

[gyre]

The PF9 is excellent, but you might want to try out the P11 too.
It isn't that much wider or heavier.
The lockworks is more sophisticated with the half cock on the PF9, which does make it a bit trickier out of a holster, but maybe easier to fire.

But the PF9 has limited capacity and the P!!'s native capacity is 12 rounds, though it comes with a california magazine.
Part of the genius of the design is making it compatible with the SW59 magazines.
Of Mecgar's options, only the 17 round compact is not a direct fit.

So the P11 can use 10, 12 round, 15 round and 20 round magazines.
And I think there are some S & W variations as well.
I have been carrying my P11 with the Mecgar 15 round magazine, modified to 16, with the Keltec sleeve over it, which makes a fantastic full size grip.
The grip fits on the 20 round magazine also.

They are not easy guns to fire, with so much power and so little weight, and being DAO, so practice does count.
I don't remember ever firing with the long magazines, but I think they will help.
As with the P380, the finger extension is recommended with the flush magazine.

If I were you, I'd get another 380 first, but it has no equivalency with a 9mm.
It is simply such a convenient package.

[gyre]

You may want to get her one of the pepperblaster models too.

I think cabela's may be out of the discontinued models now though.
Seems like a valuable option.

The jpx looks good if she has enough room to carry it.

[Thecatman]

When you carry the p3at, do you have it in a holster to conceal it or just in your pocket?
I've been looking at the Blackhawk nylon holster, or something along those lines. It supposd to have alot of stiky pads that grip the inside of your pocket so it won't come out when you pull the gun.

[Thecatman]

I'm also taking a close look at the Ruger SR9c 9mm.

As far as revolvers go, I'm looking at Charter Arms "Off Duty and Undercover" models and the S&W "Bodygaurd". I'm concidering one or the other as well, over a pistol. Weighing the pros and cons. They're all fairly light, 17oz or less, they all accept +p rounds. The S&W comes with Crimson Trace lazer grips.

I sold the S&W my wife had in PA.

[gyre]

I pocket carry because I don't want to buy a holster that won't fit the armalaser.
I have a keltec belt clip to mount on the right side.

I plan on a sheepskin ankle holster and some others, for the armalaser.

My friend uses a fobus snap style primarily, but he has a pocket type, as you mentioned, as well as some other carry versions.

[Lassen Forge]

To me, it's more about, what you can hit something with, than, a few ounces or small size and shape differences........

you can have the coolest, newest, high tech, easy to draw and conceal thing there is, but, if you can't hit anything with it....well.......

in the old west, it was not usually the fastest to draw that won, it was the most accurate..........

I agree! Like you've posted in the past, a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 44.

Spot on. If you can't hit what you're aiming at, you have better odds with a rock. Or negligably, a shotgun.

When I shoot for target, I actually prefer my Smith 38/357s... super predictable trugger pull/release, which for me is a biggie when hitting what I'm aiming at.

That's what shocks me - people don't understand point of aim, and then get pissed at a good firearm because they can't hit the side of a golfball with it. Or shoot something once and declare themselves "proficient"... :shock:

As for defense... Well, I'm skewed toward the same platform only because I know how it will react, and yeah, if the first shot doesn't count, you may not get a second chance. The problem is the carryability of them are kinda... well... they don't fit well in a garter holster or evening purse without being really obvious. Same problem wtih my officer's .45... Just a bit big and heavy.

On other fronts, just got a lead on an older ("W. German") PPK/S... while I'm not a real fan of the 380 (tho it's better than a 32, or god forbid, a 25) the small factor (and decent construction) is a huge plus. Need to go out and shoot the thing, see if I like it or not... but others who have one tell me they love it. Whatcha think - worthy or worthless?

[ygmir]

To me, it's more about, what you can hit something with, than, a few ounces or small size and shape differences........

you can have the coolest, newest, high tech, easy to draw and conceal thing there is, but, if you can't hit anything with it....well.......

in the old west, it was not usually the fastest to draw that won, it was the most accurate..........

I agree! Like you've posted in the past, a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 44.

Spot on. If you can't hit what you're aiming at, you have better odds with a rock. Or negligably, a shotgun.

When I shoot for target, I actually prefer my Smith 38/357s... super predictable trugger pull/release, which for me is a biggie when hitting what I'm aiming at.

That's what shocks me - people don't understand point of aim, and then get pissed at a good firearm because they can't hit the side of a golfball with it. Or shoot something once and declare themselves "proficient"...

As for defense... Well, I'm skewed toward the same platform only because I know how it will react, and yeah, if the first shot doesn't count, you may not get a second chance. The problem is the carryability of them are kinda... well... they don't fit well in a garter holster or evening purse without being really obvious. Same problem wtih my officer's .45... Just a bit big and heavy.

On other fronts, just got a lead on an older ("W. German") PPK/S... while I'm not a real fan of the 380 (tho it's better than a 32, or god forbid, a 25) the small factor (and decent construction) is a huge plus. Need to go out and shoot the thing, see if I like it or not... but others who have one tell me they love it. Whatcha think - worthy or worthless?

I have and carry a Walther PPK/S .380............wonderful, IMHO.

and, I think I'd carry a .22lr before a .25 or .32.
.22 L.R. is a fairly potent round, with good penetration.
especially in H.V.

[ygmir]

High Capacity handguns:

from what I can find, the average number of rounds expended, by both parties, in most gunfights is 10.
So, roughly, 5 each.
I can go with that, in that, by that time, someone is either dead, hurt, gave up, or ran away.

So, I question the need to carry 15 rounds.
I can see 7 or 8, in that, you want to make sure to have enough, but, when you start sacrificing concealability for mag volume that probably will not be needed..........Unless, of course, you're thinking of more than one gunfight between re-loadings...........


I know those here, more learned than myself, can explain this, and, I'd appreciate more knowledge.

[gyre]

High Capacity handguns:

from what I can find, the average number of rounds expended, by both parties, in most gunfights is 10.
So, roughly, 5 each.
I can go with that, in that, by that time, someone is either dead, hurt, gave up, or ran away.

So, I question the need to carry 15 rounds.
I can see 7 or 8, in that, you want to make sure to have enough, but, when you start sacrificing concealability for mag volume that probably will not be needed..........Unless, of course, you're thinking of more than one gunfight between re-loadings...........


I know those here, more learned than myself, can explain this, and, I'd appreciate more knowledge.

May be true.
But what if you're not in an average gunfight, remembering that statistics don't apply to individuals?
And I'd rather have a larger mag, than carry a backup.
Sometimes the person who runs out last, wins.

I've seen 22 rounds exchanged in close quarters in a short time, and I'm still not certain anyone was hit.
Police average 30% accuracy under stress.
If someone is firing back, very easy to miss.

I believe I only have to not be hit to win.
Unlike police or military, my obligation is only to survive.
Any duty as a first responder, is purely a personal choice.

Another factor is intimidation.
In most confrontations, zero shots are actually fired.
I consider the primary risk with the 380 to be the less intimidating appearance.

It isn't uncommon to be confronted by multiple opponents with multiple guns.
When it's obvious you won't run out soon, attitudes may alter.

If you are in a mob, would you be more inclined to stay facing a double barrel shotgun or a pump?

At least with the P11, I have the option of the very short flush magazine with 12 rounds.
I use the 20 round as a backup mag only.
And the gun is easier to control with the sleeve and the long magazine.
It all depends on what is called for.
Nice to have a choice.

[gyre]

Also, I think average capacity for 9mms these days is 17 rounds, 13 for 40 calibre.
The only one of my magazines labeled as high capacity is the 20 round.

As a 9mm is not an instantaneous stopping round, more than one successful hit may be needed for a determined opponent.
A 45 is likely to only need one successful round.

Many of us are trained to keep going after being shot, but a stupid opponent can have the same behavior.

[Thecatman]

and, I think I'd carry a .22lr before a .25 or .32.
.22 L.R. is a fairly potent round, with good penetration.
especially in H.V.

I read on a site, www.xdtalk.com, that a 22lr has better One Shot Stopping (OSS) power than a 25ACP. Not by much but was better.

[Thecatman]

My mistake. To clarify the web site it is www.internetarmory.com

[ygmir]

well, all I can tell ya, is, I've been there, more than once, when a full size black tail deer was killed with a .22lr.
And, not "finished off" but taken first shot.
True, head or high neck shots, but, still.

I'd trust it over the .25 for sure, and probably over the .32.........I think it has better penetration characteristics than either one of them.

But, this is only my opinion, and experience. Not necessarily fact.

[Lassen Forge]

To add to Yg, better range, more torque, and a lot flatter trajectory than either of the other 2 calibers. And yes, in the stupid days of my youth, I knew a guy (friend of a boyfriend) who poached deer to put meat on the table with a 22 lr. (they WERE below the poverty line - fuck, they were below ANY line - ilegal as shit or not - always Oneshot kills, and he used 95% + of the carcass. )

22 is a decent caliber, don't underestimate it. 3/1000ths of an inch caliber, a bit more propellant and projectile, and you have what an M-16 shoots.

[ygmir]

I tell ya,
if I had to choose one firearm, to survive on, it'd be a .22lr.
with good placement, it'll kill most things up to 250 lbs.
you can carry a years worth of shells in your pocket.
less susceptible to moisture, owing to no external primer.
and, if you were to ever need to "scrounge" for cartridges, I'd bet, you're more likely to find them, than anything else.
you can also get a "shotshell" for them, even though it's pretty useless on anything other than a bluejay at 20'.


.22 mag. is right there, except, being less widespread, therefore, less likely to be found.

[gyre]

On other fronts, just got a lead on an older ("W. German") PPK/S... while I'm not a real fan of the 380 (tho it's better than a 32, or god forbid, a 25) the small factor (and decent construction) is a huge plus. Need to go out and shoot the thing, see if I like it or not... but others who have one tell me they love it. Whatcha think - worthy or worthless?[/b][/color]

I've never heard anything bad about the older Walthers.

My only hesitation would be the weight relative to current higher calibre guns.

I was considering a 9 x 18 Makarov before I bought the Keltec P11.
It was a very good deal, even with FFL transfer.
Power is between the 38 special and the 9 x 19 9mm.
Defense ammo is available for it.
Though an extensively used weapon, the better condition ones were very good, about $130.
Probably old police sidearms, or secret police.
Workmanship far better than most weapons, possibly a titanium alloy frame, but heavier than the P11.

The better range of choice in 9mm rounds, cheaper target rounds (at the time, may no longer be true with imports), and the wide choice of magazines for the Keltec, as well as the better stopping power, were all part of the decision.

I can't say the Walther would be a bad choice.

[gyre]

When it comes to the 22 rounds, are you guys talking about rifle use or handguns?
These light rounds behave very differently for some complex reasons in a short barrel.

I've carried a 22 handgun for self defense and I sure wouldn't dismiss it, but with the light 380s available now, I wouldn't buy another one.
I could hit a target 8 times, in the time it takes me to fire the 9mm three times.
I liked that part, and it was a great target pistol.


A big concern about the 22 versus centerfire cartridges is longterm stability of the primer.
I often had failure to fire of the first round, enough to be a concern.
Perhaps a quirk?

Also there are many defense round choices in the 25 and 32 now, and nothing to compare to that in 22.

Additionally, heavy rounds in a short barrel seem to handle deflection retaining far more power than lighter rounds.

For pure survival, 22s can't be reloaded, but buying a supply that would last longer than the primers is cheap enough.

[gyre]

On the why we carry side, the much nicer and seemingly safer neighborhood I'm moving into, just had a home invasion, with the resident startled and then shot.
Looks safe though.

The place where I got gas tonight was buzzing with police.
A cop had just been carjacked there.

[gyre]

http://www.centuryarms.biz/products.asp?cat=21
http://www.centuryarms.biz/categories.asp?cat=53

If you want to see what is coming in for dealers now, here's a preview.
A lot of Walthers recently, even 9mm, but all I've seen lately is 32.

[FIGJAM]

My favorite piece is my japanees "wewolowa".