Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:19 am

Gotta... go... burn... some... propellant... today....

Been too long. I can feel it.

Oh, looked at the PPK - Intriuged. It feels supertight - I asked if it had been shot much, the owner told me it was rebuilt at the factory (anyone heard of this?) ... gonna go play on the range later with it, see how she shoots.

Wish me luck.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:24 am

I've not heard of factory Walther rebuilds......but, certainly, it does not mean it's not possble.

as long and the slide rails and such are still square, it should be fine.
Truly, a beautiful gun. And, the nice thing is, if you pay a reasonable price......you can often re-sell (if, somehow, you don't like it) for your money back, or more.........
and, if you can get it without paperwork.............(not that I'd ever suggest that).......

Mine is a little awkward for me, only in that, I have fairly large hands, but, in the overall, it's a sweet shooter. Very, very few jams, and, usually, with cheap ammo.......

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:39 am

Neither had I, specifically (but I didn't really follow Walthers until now), but it sure looks and feels new. We'll see how she shoots later.

I don't know what reasonable is... I know I've gotten some firearms for a fraction of their value, and goten bit on others...

And without paperwork? Perish the thought!! It is the gubbermint's responsibility to know where ALL the guns are, so they can be removed from dangerous hands if it ever becomes politically necessary. Just like it was in the People's Republic of Canadia. Or Lesser Britain.

Funny, that. My stepdaughter's ex came over for Christmas one year, and we went shooting. He fell in love with handgun target shooting, then fell into a very morose state, when he realized that there was no way he could continue this very fun and relaxing activity on his return home. Hell, even ot own a shotgun there required permits and licenses and police checks and... yeah, ugly situation.

Worse, they are brainwashed to believe they are safer this way - never mind the only time I felt in serious fear for my life was from a knife-weilding psycho in a convenience store in Fulham (a suburb of London). Strangely, first thing I did was reach into my purse - only to remember what WASN'T there. Fucking London.

Of course, I would have been villified and pilloried and most certainly imprisoned for defending myself - a criminal act there. Yeah, thank god for firearm registration and gun control, eh?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:47 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Neither had I, specifically (but I didn't really follow Walthers until now), but it sure looks and feels new. We'll see how she shoots later.

I don't know what reasonable is... I know I've gotten some firearms for a fraction of their value, and goten bit on others...

And without paperwork? Perish the thought!! It is the gubbermint's responsibility to know where ALL the guns are, so they can be removed from dangerous hands if it ever becomes politically necessary. Just like it was in the People's Republic of Canadia. Or Lesser Britain.

Funny, that. My stepdaughter's ex came over for Christmas one year, and we went shooting. He fell in love with handgun target shooting, then fell into a very morose state, when he realized that there was no way he could continue this very fun and relaxing activity on his return home. Hell, even ot own a shotgun there required permits and licenses and police checks and... yeah, ugly situation.

Worse, they are brainwashed to believe they are safer this way - never mind the only time I felt in serious fear for my life was from a knife-weilding psycho in a convenience store in Fulham (a suburb of London). Strangely, first thing I did was reach into my purse - only to remember what WASN'T there. Fucking London.

Of course, I would have been villified and pilloried and most certainly imprisoned for defending myself - a criminal act there. Yeah, thank god for firearm registration and gun control, eh?

\
********swoon*********

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:57 am

gyre wrote:
For pure survival, 22s can't be reloaded, but buying a supply that would last longer than the primers is cheap enough.

Actually, they can be reloaded. It is just not usually practical to do so.

If I remember right you use mercury fulminate (liquid state) put a drop in the bottom of the cartridge, swirl it around so it gets under the rim and let it dry. I do not think anyone makes dies or loading tables but you can use black powder and a soft lead roundball pressed in with your thumb. It will work in a bolt action and would be a decent small game round. Reliability would be an issue, especially after 3 or more reloads since you cannot uncrimp where the firing pin has hit the rim. Although in a single shot you can pay attention to the orientatin of the cartridge when you put it in the chamber.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:59 am

Box Burner wrote:
gyre wrote:
For pure survival, 22s can't be reloaded, but buying a supply that would last longer than the primers is cheap enough.

Actually, they can be reloaded. It is just not usually practical to do so.

If I remember right you use mercury fulminate (liquid state) put a drop in the bottom of the cartridge, swirl it around so it gets under the rim and let it dry. I do not think anyone makes dies or loading tables but you can use black powder and a soft lead roundball pressed in with your thumb. It will work in a bolt action and would be a decent small game round. Reliability would be an issue, especially after 3 or more reloads since you cannot uncrimp where the firing pin has hit the rim. Although in a single shot you can pay attention to the orientatin of the cartridge when you put it in the chamber.

well, also, in a "pure survival" mode.......who's gonna have access to reloading supplies and equipment?

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:23 am

As I said; it is not usually practical to reload 22's.

for long term survival, the knowledge of how to do a thing, even though it is not usually practical to do it, provides one the ability to do that thing if the oppertunity and need should arise.

You never know what you may find whilst rummaging about an abandoned building in a bombed out city.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:31 pm

Box Burner wrote:As I said; it is not usually practical to reload 22's.

for long term survival, the knowledge of how to do a thing, even though it is not usually practical to do it, provides one the ability to do that thing if the oppertunity and need should arise.

You never know what you may find whilst rummaging about an abandoned building in a bombed out city.

totally agree.

knowledge is key.

I was just pointing out, that you can carry a lot of .22 ammo anyway..........and, .22lr, if anything is going to be found, is most likely.
and, they do last a long, long time, if stored even close to correctly.
I'd submit they last longer, all things being equal, than a center fire round.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:37 pm

In local news here, someone got shot related to wearing baggy pants and being rude.

In the mass murder trial, including a number of children, a gang member is testifying as an expert witness about the high moral standards of gangs.

And under the "Don't go anywhere you need a gun" category, someone was shot and killed outside of a church, in spite of immediate aid from the church.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... er=popular

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/lo ... s-shooting

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaki ... public_rss

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/subindex/news

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... er=popular

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:43 pm

I never seem to end up with normal stuff. I found something "abynormal" that I would very much like to have;

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:57 pm

is it legal in the U.S.?

I thought .50 cal. was the biggest.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:17 pm

I'm sure that it is legal in Missouri,,,,,,,,, the U.S.S.Missouri, that is. 16 inchers.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:19 pm

Price the ammo for that nitro express.

Double rifles are the type of thing the 700 was made for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_rifle

The 600 nitro handgun

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:27 pm

You never know when you might have a use for a larger caliber;

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:33 pm

Some people take weapons very seriously;

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:09 pm

HEY GYRE!!
I bailed out the 380 yesterday. Not gonna shoot it until November when I take time off. We're gonna take some police silhouettes and practice on them, using the three stages for the CCW qualifing. 3 yards, 5 yards and 7 yards.
My biggest dislike about it is pulling the slide to chamber a round. Its like tug of war, hard on my left thumb and index finger. My wife can't do it. Maybe it needs oiling. When I got it, it was dry.
I chambered a Federal Arms 95gr FMJ and it would jam going into the chamber. It did'nt appear to be at the correct angle.
I'm gonna dis-assemble it, oil it, clean it prior to taking it out.
Looking foward to putting at least 150 rounds through it in a few weeks.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:15 pm

Congratulations, Catman!
Great news.

It definitely shouldn't be that hard to pull.
But it's aluminum and steel.
Lubrication is vital on the slide.

Some good tech info here.
http://www.ktog.org/index.html

Don't be afraid to send it in to keltec for a full polish if you are unsure about doing it yourself.
Only certain spots benefit and you don't want to remove hardened metal unless it helps.
Be sure to remove any flash, especially on the slide edges.
Don't disassemble the final small lockworks of the trigger unless necessary and you are confident about doing it.
It is quite tricky to assemble on this one.

It won't hurt to cycle the gun to break in the loading areas, before you shoot it.
Some areas to polish on the feed ramp are pretty obvious, if you want to do that now too.
We polished my gun first.
I would break it in before sending it in, if possible.
Definitely lubricate it though.
Even over-lubrication has been suggested for break in.

I strongly recommend getting the grip extension and the 9 round magazine.
Really a pain to practice without extra magazines anyhow.
http://www.keltecweapons.com/product/p3 ... extension/

I got the right side belt clip too.
It comes in black or stainless.
Available left or right.

Not a bad idea to have some of the plastic frame pins, just in case, though we've never had a problem re-using them.
Some are hard to remove, some not.

Glad to hear you got it.
Let us know how it goes when you try it out.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:08 pm

I'll be sure and post how things go. I'm sure I'll like it.
I'm thinking because it's brand new, dry etc. is why it's hard to pull. My wife is gonna have to figure it out because I would think she would have to do it herself at the range when we take the course.
In the manuel (on page 13 in mine) it shows someone using a good bullet to remove the assembley pin and I've seen similar pictures on different web sites too. Would'nt a screwdriver be better? I was gonna do the basic disassemble shown in the manuel. The slide, barrel, recoil spring, ejector. Then oil the parts where friction would appear to take place.
Correction on the ammo that I chambered, it was American Eagle 95gr FMJ, made by Federal.
You've mentioned a grip extention before. I have small hands but I think I need one. My right middle finger covers most of the grip under the trigger gaurd and my ring finger is barley on it.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:45 pm

if you run a few rounds through it, even if jamming, you might be able to find the high/trouble/rough spots from marks left from the ammo.
copper or lead, depending on the bullet.

I remember doing that on a 1911A1 I had......it worked.

shot copper FMJ bullets, then, looked for copper on the feed ramp, throat, chamber. Used a dremmel tool to polish those spots.

and, aftert a few times, it quit jamming, as well.

Also, check the casing for marks.

just a thought.

good luck

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:34 pm

Thanks yg.
They be copper bullets. I'll look for marks after shooting it.
I'm gonna have to get a dremmel. I remember the TV ads in the 90s.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:28 pm

dremmels are great little tools........not so much for heavy duty stuff.....but, for gunsmithing stuff, great.

also, for feeding problems, it can be the clip, magazine, either alignment, or, the angle of release for the round from the clip magazine to the feed ramp/chamber.

*edit because I got schooled on magazine vs clip as pertains to firearms*

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:27 pm

ygmir wrote:
*edit because I got schooled on magazine vs clip as pertains to firearms*

Reminds me of basic training in the army...if you called your rifle a 'gun' the drill sergeant made you hold your rifle up over your head in one hand, grab your crotch with the other and run around the barracks yelling "This is my rifle and this is my gun. This is for fighting and this is for fun."

I'm not sure if they do that anymore now that they let women in the military. I'm not sure the DIs are even allowed to curse any more. Ah...times do change.

JK

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:21 pm

jkisa wrote:Reminds me of basic training in the army...if you called your rifle a 'gun' the drill sergeant made you hold your rifle up over your head in one hand, grab your crotch with the other and run around the barracks yelling "This is my rifle and this is my gun. This is for fighting and this is for fun."

*as I clean dutch apple pie crumbs off the screen and milk dripping out my nose*

ygmir wrote:also, for feeding problems, it can be the clip, magazine, either alignment, or, the angle of release for the round from the clip magazine to the feed ramp/chamber.

Thats what I suspect. The cartridge is appears straight as opposed to an angle.
I'm wondering if the magazine is the right one. It's stamped "made in Italy" where as the gun was made in the USA.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:26 pm

Keltec always uses Mecgar for quality.

The magazine is crucial for most guns.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:01 pm

Thats the brand, Mecgar. I'm not overly concerned about it, it was something I noticed. Throughout the day today I've been pulling the slide and it feels like it's easier. Not as rough on my thumb, but still needs a tight grip.
I tried to join the KTOG forum a few weeks ago and never recieved an email conformation.
I did it again today with a different user name and password and everything went A-OK.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:03 pm

Mec-gar magazines are typically flawless, though the occasional issue may crop up.
The feed lip area is crucial to feeding, which is why they chose Mec-gar, which tells you much about Keltec.
The ramps are very short on these smaller guns, which is usually the issue.
Polish and waxing helps.

You will find that sharpness has much to do with feeding quality too.
You seldom have any feeding issues with defense ammo loading, only practice ammo.
But this is why my friend uses powerball ammo.
I think it isn't a bad idea as a top round in the magazine, for hand feeding.

If I haven't said, the 380 allows hand insertion of rounds into the chamber, unlike the P-11.
And a slot allows a visual check of a hot chamber.

http://mec-gar.com/
http://mec-gar.com/technical.html
http://www.mec-gar.it/

If you want to know how good Mec-gar is, drill a hole in one of those paper thin magazines.

Dare you.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:14 pm

Thecatman wrote: In the manual (on page 13 in mine) it shows someone using a good bullet to remove the assembly pin and I've seen similar pictures on different web sites too. Wouldn't a screwdriver be better?

Any tool can be used, but it is good design to allow field stripping without any tools.

Be sure to learn how to quickly fix any jams or feeding issues, for defense purposes.

Keltec specifies 200 rounds minimum for break in.

The KTOG webhouse has a great deal of information, even without getting into the forum.

Many other forums and sites cover general break in and polish, and general technical issues.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:50 pm

gyre wrote:And a slot allows a visual check of a hot chamber.

That was something I noticed, on the ejector side. I kinda like that better than what my Ruger MKIII has, a "Loaded Chamber Indicator" that sticks out on the left side of the barrel. Don't get me wrong, I love that Ruger, but, the KelTec design seems more practical.
When I graduate to defense round I'll try Cor Bon DPX first, see how it feeds, do some home made ballistic tests with wet newspaper etc. and go from there. I'll even try a ballistic test with the target rounds I have.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:28 am

Tried and True....

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:35 am

This little puppy is pretty cool too, though I'm not a big fan of the government of the producer.