Hey Robotland,
I don't mean to be stubborn (funny that I still manage to be, though) but
why would you need to tighten lines so much? even with a loose line,
a flexed pole could only flex as much as the line would let it go. Unless it flexes from a quarter of its size (as if it was a footer)
I will definitely test this in Golden Gate park before I take it to El Desierto, but does anybody have another opinion on this solution before I spent a quarter of my budget in rope??
Damn, I like this solution and if you are gonna kill it before it sees the light, I want it to defend itself a bit before the last gasp.
gatonegro
Fuller Dome - upper limit on size for v2?
I think you should do it whether it works or NOT, just so I can come observe the results!
Think of a pendulum. The rope that the swinging weight hangs from keeps it from getting further away from where it is suspended, but allows it to swing freely from side to side. Adding another rope from beneath (hard to do with a pendulum, of course!) would constrain the weight's movement to a degree, but still allow swing from side to side in the fashion of a bowstring being drawn. The tighter the rope, the less swing. And conduit pole will only flex so much before it bends, and then STAYS bent, has been my experience.
I have considered a modified version of this idea for the sole purpose of holding tarps on; Instead of vertex-to-center-of-strut, vertex/vertex/vertex in a triangle, to an imaginary spot in the center of that triangle. Repeat overall, twice. Mount one resulting net of triangles on the INSIDE and one OUTSIDE, with your covering of choice sandwiched between. Also serves as extra grabbable area for safety.
I really don't want to be a Geodesic Buzzkill about your idea, but I have reservations about it and enjoy listening to multiple brains hacking at design problems. Ideas are like rabbits- If you start with a big one you'll end up with a lot of little ones that are even cuter....
Dome On, My Friend. I'll be anxious to view the results in 52 days!
Think of a pendulum. The rope that the swinging weight hangs from keeps it from getting further away from where it is suspended, but allows it to swing freely from side to side. Adding another rope from beneath (hard to do with a pendulum, of course!) would constrain the weight's movement to a degree, but still allow swing from side to side in the fashion of a bowstring being drawn. The tighter the rope, the less swing. And conduit pole will only flex so much before it bends, and then STAYS bent, has been my experience.
I have considered a modified version of this idea for the sole purpose of holding tarps on; Instead of vertex-to-center-of-strut, vertex/vertex/vertex in a triangle, to an imaginary spot in the center of that triangle. Repeat overall, twice. Mount one resulting net of triangles on the INSIDE and one OUTSIDE, with your covering of choice sandwiched between. Also serves as extra grabbable area for safety.
I really don't want to be a Geodesic Buzzkill about your idea, but I have reservations about it and enjoy listening to multiple brains hacking at design problems. Ideas are like rabbits- If you start with a big one you'll end up with a lot of little ones that are even cuter....
Dome On, My Friend. I'll be anxious to view the results in 52 days!
Howdy From Kalamazoo
http://www.springett.net/tsgallery/bm/bm99dome.jpg
f2 dome from 1999. We had three hammocks, 2 two person deals and a hanging chair. No problems at all. Just don't put parachute on it without vents.
The f4 from last year is a pretty strong. Though because of the higher frequency we had to remove poles to make a doorway http://www.springett.net/pic/smoochdome2.jpg
NF
f2 dome from 1999. We had three hammocks, 2 two person deals and a hanging chair. No problems at all. Just don't put parachute on it without vents.
The f4 from last year is a pretty strong. Though because of the higher frequency we had to remove poles to make a doorway http://www.springett.net/pic/smoochdome2.jpg
NF
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gatonegro3
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:21 pm
Thanks Burp! Thanks Robotland.
That's what I needed. a previous iteration of this solution plus some encouragement.
We are Sporosite camp, that is the bodypainting camp, the one that sprays people head to toes in little pools. We don't have location yet, but i'll certainly paint you guys if you come to see our dome stand (or fall)
This year we'll have the painting booth! a new contraption of my design, in which you stand in and you come out totally painted, jetson dressing-machine style.
Now let's talk bolts. Why carriage bolts? what do you guys use?
gatonegro del desierto
That's what I needed. a previous iteration of this solution plus some encouragement.
We are Sporosite camp, that is the bodypainting camp, the one that sprays people head to toes in little pools. We don't have location yet, but i'll certainly paint you guys if you come to see our dome stand (or fall)
This year we'll have the painting booth! a new contraption of my design, in which you stand in and you come out totally painted, jetson dressing-machine style.
Now let's talk bolts. Why carriage bolts? what do you guys use?
gatonegro del desierto
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gatonegro3
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:21 pm
gatonegro3
Lay the two triangles out flat, fully opposed to each other (i.e. the hinge is fully open). In this configuration, ropes running from the opposing vertices to the center strut would indeed provide some structural support in all directions that the center of the opposing strut could move (mostly away or toward the vertices, much less as the direction of movement changes from that plane to the one perpendicular to it; there is a trig fomula I can dig out to calculate this, but the concept should be clear).
Now articulate the hinge so that the two opposing vertices are touching (i.e. the hinge is closed). In this configuration the ropes running from the vertices to the center strut provide support only in directions away from the two touching vertices, and none in any direction toward the vertices.
Indeed, any tension on the ropes now threatens the strut by pulling on it at its weakest point. Pull tightly enough on the ropes and the strut will collapse even though no other stress is applied.
In a 2v dome the angles between opposing triangles are not severe, but are acute enough for this to be a concern. Rather than strengthening the dome they actually weaken it by pre-stressing the struts in exactly the direction (inward) they would most likely fail were a strong gust of wind to be applied from the outside, something too heavy to be hung from the strut from the inside, or some yahoo to climb on the dome and put his/her weight on the strut.
Best of luck whatever you choose to do. I look forward to seeing the final project on the playa!
Picture a triangular hinge, two triangles joined along one side and allowed to articulate along that joint.How about a 2v dome out of 1" conduit with 10' struts, if you reinforce it by running a line from each vertex to each strut midpoint?
Lay the two triangles out flat, fully opposed to each other (i.e. the hinge is fully open). In this configuration, ropes running from the opposing vertices to the center strut would indeed provide some structural support in all directions that the center of the opposing strut could move (mostly away or toward the vertices, much less as the direction of movement changes from that plane to the one perpendicular to it; there is a trig fomula I can dig out to calculate this, but the concept should be clear).
Now articulate the hinge so that the two opposing vertices are touching (i.e. the hinge is closed). In this configuration the ropes running from the vertices to the center strut provide support only in directions away from the two touching vertices, and none in any direction toward the vertices.
Indeed, any tension on the ropes now threatens the strut by pulling on it at its weakest point. Pull tightly enough on the ropes and the strut will collapse even though no other stress is applied.
In a 2v dome the angles between opposing triangles are not severe, but are acute enough for this to be a concern. Rather than strengthening the dome they actually weaken it by pre-stressing the struts in exactly the direction (inward) they would most likely fail were a strong gust of wind to be applied from the outside, something too heavy to be hung from the strut from the inside, or some yahoo to climb on the dome and put his/her weight on the strut.
Best of luck whatever you choose to do. I look forward to seeing the final project on the playa!
"Yes, but is it art?" "No, Art is over there, on the couch."
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gatonegro3
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:21 pm
Holy Mackerel!
now I get it, dMan. It would pull inwards. My mind figured the triangles flat. darnit! And I like to think of myself as a 3d thinking unit.
I wonder if there's any possible modification to "my" idea that would address the angle problem. ...
Suppose the ropes are just tight enough so they are a straight line *and they are not elastic* so that they only keep them from bending towards any of the vertices or outwards. They wouldn't facilitate inward bending that way, and they would still keep poles from bending in any other direction, right? If this is correct, then the ropes make the poles much less likely to bend, since it limits 3 out of 4 possible directions.
Idea 2; much more wacky. too much work.
You weld four mini poles (2') that stick out in all four directions from the middle of all struts. Like an X out of the middle of each pole. Now there's a VERY tense wire from the vertex to the end of the X and then to the other vertex. that's four wires per pole, but this would keep the poles from bending, according to my fuzzy thinking.
BTW, Ideas are bunnies is the best analogy I heard this morning, Robotman!!
now I get it, dMan. It would pull inwards. My mind figured the triangles flat. darnit! And I like to think of myself as a 3d thinking unit.
I wonder if there's any possible modification to "my" idea that would address the angle problem. ...
Suppose the ropes are just tight enough so they are a straight line *and they are not elastic* so that they only keep them from bending towards any of the vertices or outwards. They wouldn't facilitate inward bending that way, and they would still keep poles from bending in any other direction, right? If this is correct, then the ropes make the poles much less likely to bend, since it limits 3 out of 4 possible directions.
Idea 2; much more wacky. too much work.
You weld four mini poles (2') that stick out in all four directions from the middle of all struts. Like an X out of the middle of each pole. Now there's a VERY tense wire from the vertex to the end of the X and then to the other vertex. that's four wires per pole, but this would keep the poles from bending, according to my fuzzy thinking.
BTW, Ideas are bunnies is the best analogy I heard this morning, Robotman!!
Brass tacks about steel bolts
Hey Gato! I might have to go green this year....I'd AT LEAST like to see the paint booth in action.
For fastening everything together on the Snowman I went with 3/8" bolts or eyes all around. Grade 2 (midgrade) bought in bulk from the TSC farm supply store. 1 3/4" or 2" are good, although a shorter bolt would work. I like 'em a little overlong, so you don't have to wrestle five or six struts down quite so tightly. I traded the "second tier" bolts in each dome for eyelets to hold hammocks and webbing, and always bring a few extras that are extra-long, in case there's a stubborn section that won't pull together. Tighten everthing down, clamp with a vicegrip, pull the longeye out and replace with a bolt. I use big washers on both sides of the struts, and recommend getting washers with holes as close to the bolt size as possible to reduce pullouts. Don't use the carraige bolts with the little square section under the head, as they won't sit flat. Good 'ol hex-head medium-thread boys'll never let you down. Bring spares of all hardware!
ESSENTIAL DOME TOOLKIT
Vicegrips
Deepwell socket (and maybe a spare!)
Ratchet (and ditto-maybe you'll have help putting it up!)
At least ONE crescent wrench
Extra hardware
Beverage
Spring clips to hold tarps while securing, and to make temp. shelter while domebuilding
Zip strips
Cord
One suggestion about strut holes and hardware- I use 3/8" bolts, and when drilling the holes in the struts I start with a 1/8" pilot hole and then bore out to 1/2" with a stepped bit. Having the 1/8" of play makes threading bolts through several struts A LOT easier.
I'm finally preparing to take the Snowman down at the old house- Can't wait to get him back together in Hushville! C'mon by late on Monday and I should have it mostly back together- As far as I know, it's the only "triple scoop" dome structure out there- (*prideful swelling*)- Look for the thing that looks like a snowman, will the blue beacon on top!
For fastening everything together on the Snowman I went with 3/8" bolts or eyes all around. Grade 2 (midgrade) bought in bulk from the TSC farm supply store. 1 3/4" or 2" are good, although a shorter bolt would work. I like 'em a little overlong, so you don't have to wrestle five or six struts down quite so tightly. I traded the "second tier" bolts in each dome for eyelets to hold hammocks and webbing, and always bring a few extras that are extra-long, in case there's a stubborn section that won't pull together. Tighten everthing down, clamp with a vicegrip, pull the longeye out and replace with a bolt. I use big washers on both sides of the struts, and recommend getting washers with holes as close to the bolt size as possible to reduce pullouts. Don't use the carraige bolts with the little square section under the head, as they won't sit flat. Good 'ol hex-head medium-thread boys'll never let you down. Bring spares of all hardware!
ESSENTIAL DOME TOOLKIT
Vicegrips
Deepwell socket (and maybe a spare!)
Ratchet (and ditto-maybe you'll have help putting it up!)
At least ONE crescent wrench
Extra hardware
Beverage
Spring clips to hold tarps while securing, and to make temp. shelter while domebuilding
Zip strips
Cord
One suggestion about strut holes and hardware- I use 3/8" bolts, and when drilling the holes in the struts I start with a 1/8" pilot hole and then bore out to 1/2" with a stepped bit. Having the 1/8" of play makes threading bolts through several struts A LOT easier.
I'm finally preparing to take the Snowman down at the old house- Can't wait to get him back together in Hushville! C'mon by late on Monday and I should have it mostly back together- As far as I know, it's the only "triple scoop" dome structure out there- (*prideful swelling*)- Look for the thing that looks like a snowman, will the blue beacon on top!
Howdy From Kalamazoo
Bolts n stuff
gatonegro3, 3/4" poles. We use hex bolts rather than carriage bolts. With a hex bolt you can use a cordless drill to tighten. With three drills setup with a hex bit, you can put a dome together real fast. Semi tight at first, once everything is connected you can tighted all the way. Also at the top verticies we use bolts with eye loops to hang stuff from. You have to tape the tops up to make sure they don't rip the fabric on top.
NoFlash
NoFlash
I tried to design my structure so that assembly on-Playa could be accomplished without using any power tools- Obviously there are human-powered methods of tightening bolts, but I also pre-drilled the nailholes for the decking boards (1/8" bit, 2 1/2" smoothshank nails). I prefer to use drywall screws, but nailing worked fine and teardown was actually a little bit faster. (We pounded the exposed nails over for transport off-Playa, so as not to burn nailly wood in the community crib!) It might pay to consider what exactly you need a power tool for, just like considering the necessity of a generator.
Howdy From Kalamazoo
Smaller length, more V
I built a 24' 3v 5/8 dome using 3/4 conduit (thanks desertdomes!).
It's been fine in all sorts of weather, hammocks, even removing a few struts for a larger opening. However, none of my lengths were over 6', 3 lengths total, each color coded. I would go up a V to reduce your strut length, then you can increase your diameter a lot. My covering is a 28' army surplus parachute, zip tied all over. The chute gives shade, but also acts as a convection oven at times. I would go with something opaque as a cover, and made-to-fit is key, but $$.
Oh, and the climbing thing? No worries, just make sure you step only on the connections, not on the centers. You won't get any bend.
Oh Oh, and bring a cordless powerdrill as well. You won't regret it.
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It's been fine in all sorts of weather, hammocks, even removing a few struts for a larger opening. However, none of my lengths were over 6', 3 lengths total, each color coded. I would go up a V to reduce your strut length, then you can increase your diameter a lot. My covering is a 28' army surplus parachute, zip tied all over. The chute gives shade, but also acts as a convection oven at times. I would go with something opaque as a cover, and made-to-fit is key, but $$.
Oh, and the climbing thing? No worries, just make sure you step only on the connections, not on the centers. You won't get any bend.
Oh Oh, and bring a cordless powerdrill as well. You won't regret it.
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Smaller length, more V
I built a 24' 3v 5/8 dome using 3/4 conduit (thanks desertdomes!).
It's been fine in all sorts of weather, hammocks, even removing a few struts for a larger opening. However, none of my lengths were over 6', 3 lengths total, each color coded. I would go up a V to reduce your strut length, then you can increase your diameter a lot. My covering is a 28' army surplus parachute, zip tied all over. The chute gives shade, but also acts as a convection oven at times. I would go with something opaque as a cover, and made-to-fit is key, but $$.
Oh, and the climbing thing? No worries, just make sure you step only on the connections, not on the centers. You won't get any bend.
Oh Oh, and bring a cordless powerdrill as well. You won't regret it.
7
It's been fine in all sorts of weather, hammocks, even removing a few struts for a larger opening. However, none of my lengths were over 6', 3 lengths total, each color coded. I would go up a V to reduce your strut length, then you can increase your diameter a lot. My covering is a 28' army surplus parachute, zip tied all over. The chute gives shade, but also acts as a convection oven at times. I would go with something opaque as a cover, and made-to-fit is key, but $$.
Oh, and the climbing thing? No worries, just make sure you step only on the connections, not on the centers. You won't get any bend.
Oh Oh, and bring a cordless powerdrill as well. You won't regret it.
7
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Our covering on the smoochdome is made up of two materials. The top is a balloon top that we got almost for free. Go to a local Balloon repair shop, if a balloon is not fit to fly anymore they cut them up to prevent use. Typically these shops have tons of this material left over. The balloon top fits perfectly over a 30' x 15' dome.
The lower section we use Botex, which is similar to a tennis court net.
Looks like this from the outside http://www.springett.net/pic/smoochdome2.jpg
and this from the inside
http://www.springett.net/pic/smoochdome4.jpg
NF
The lower section we use Botex, which is similar to a tennis court net.
Looks like this from the outside http://www.springett.net/pic/smoochdome2.jpg
and this from the inside
http://www.springett.net/pic/smoochdome4.jpg
NF
BUILT IT!
We had a minor dome building party this weekend and put up our dome.
As well as working on our camper/bus 6 of us took 2 rather busy evenings to hammer, bend, and drill all 240 ends of our 3v dome frame.
We started with the laying out of the pieces at around 6 pm with half of the metal left to drill and put the last bolt in the top vertex at around 3 am. When I picked up the shortest of the 3 section lengths i noticed that the opposite ends had not been pounded flat on the same plane! ARG! We had one end on an anvil and the other clamped on another table, but the TWO TABLES WERE NOT ON THE SAME PLANE! So I'm getting a little panicky and a little pissy. I took back the 3/8 bolts and bought all 5/16 to fit into the crooked holes. I get back from the store and someone's drilling the holes by eye with no drilling jig to keep all holes drilled to precision. I'm thinking the whole pile of metal is scrap!
Well it wasn't. It took 3 of us to directly assemble with a fourth person to help hold ladder and push structure around and hand tools. We were thinking we'd climb the frame to put on the third/fourth layers but had a lot of ADVENTURE fitting the ends and managing the bolts from standing below. I still want to assemble a dome from teh center/top down/outwards. It would require a good ten or fifteen people to lift the dome up each level to put the next lower level on, but I feel it would be safer and quicker.
Now for making a cover....
As well as working on our camper/bus 6 of us took 2 rather busy evenings to hammer, bend, and drill all 240 ends of our 3v dome frame.
We started with the laying out of the pieces at around 6 pm with half of the metal left to drill and put the last bolt in the top vertex at around 3 am. When I picked up the shortest of the 3 section lengths i noticed that the opposite ends had not been pounded flat on the same plane! ARG! We had one end on an anvil and the other clamped on another table, but the TWO TABLES WERE NOT ON THE SAME PLANE! So I'm getting a little panicky and a little pissy. I took back the 3/8 bolts and bought all 5/16 to fit into the crooked holes. I get back from the store and someone's drilling the holes by eye with no drilling jig to keep all holes drilled to precision. I'm thinking the whole pile of metal is scrap!
Well it wasn't. It took 3 of us to directly assemble with a fourth person to help hold ladder and push structure around and hand tools. We were thinking we'd climb the frame to put on the third/fourth layers but had a lot of ADVENTURE fitting the ends and managing the bolts from standing below. I still want to assemble a dome from teh center/top down/outwards. It would require a good ten or fifteen people to lift the dome up each level to put the next lower level on, but I feel it would be safer and quicker.
Now for making a cover....
Top down approach
It surprising how well it all comes together, I always fear the last pole will not fit in place, but it always does.
We've had most luck with the top down approach and one bad experiece going the opposite way.
Building a dome on the playa is a great way to meet your neighbors.
NF
We've had most luck with the top down approach and one bad experiece going the opposite way.
Building a dome on the playa is a great way to meet your neighbors.
NF
The best part of domebuilding is the accompanying noises, especially the ones you make when you're yanking that last strut in! I built the three-dome Snowman all by myself, including climbing the outside of the two lower domes to install the (pre-assembled) third dome on top....Next time, I'll ask for help. Good example of AWTH. (Accident Waiting To Happen.)
Howdy From Kalamazoo