"I don't support the war, but I do support the troops&q

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:14 pm

I wouldn't burn a flag myself.

But I wouldn't put one out either.

maryanimal · Post by **maryanimal** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:54 pm

After reading all the current posts in here I must speak up. I have a son in the Navy who is a SeaBee. He's has served this country for 6 years and is still enlisted. He's been to Iraq and to Kuwait. I thank God everyday for my son who serves this country proudly. He will always be my hero.

I have another son who will be joining the marines soon. And when his call to duty calls, he will answer it proudly. I want to thank Everyone in here who have served, who is serving and those who have loved ones serving. I would love to hug each and everyone one you and thank you personally for what you've done to keep this country free.

neon tetra: Have you ever served in the military. Do you have sons or daughters that have served in the military? Or family members that have served in the military? Or friends in the military? If so, when was the last time you called them mass murderers???
I do believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how stupid and uninformed they sound. But you take the cake.

So, in honor of all the military personnel past, present and future, my sons,
all off the men and women who gave their lives, I say this to you neon tetra, a hale and hearty...fuck you, fuck you, fuck you verymuch.

And I'll agree with everyone in saying, if you don't like it here in the U.S. then leave. And don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Post by **Eric** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:42 pm

jkisha wrote:Did we fight for a person's right to yell FIRE in a crowded theater?
He sounds like he might be a member of Westboro Baptist church.

The "yelling fire" is a red herring- peoples lives could be endangered, it does not fall under the First Amendment.

A lot of Westboro's activities, so far, do. The current Supreme Court case will decide if they've stepped over the line by picketing private military funerals- free speech only applies to the government stopping you from speaking out against that government.

Neon Tetra has pissed me off as well as many other here, I am not and will not defend the crap he's saying.

He does have a right to say it, however.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:10 pm

*blunders in*

Reading this thread is interesting, and so affirming of plonking n. tetra back in the nine eleven thread.

I am someone who can be very foolish about service men/women. I grew up in Berkeley and was taken to vietnam war protests before I could walk, and well, in many ways, I'm still in that bubble and I forget how complicated things actually are. And perhaps more than any other person on this board, I have more riding on keeping our boys and girls in the land of ieds for as long as possible. (And yes, I thought of that while still in Austria, I know something about bread and buttering sides.)
I want them home. I want these stupid wars to end. I don't think that they are really defending us against anything, except saying that we were wrong to start these wars and that they are unwinnable.
Every war has its atrocity stories. Necklaces make of ears. Summary executions. Bayoneted babies. Rapes. Torture.
How do ordinary people commit these horrific acts? Sure, some of them are just crazy sadist types liberated by combat conditions into being able to do what they have always dreamt of. But most are perfectly sane (and here I am using more colloquial definitions of "sane" and "crazy" than I usually do) who would never have hurt anyone if they hadn't been thrust into the horrors of war.
And having committed them will scar them for life. Too many will not come back whole. Shell shock, battle fatigue, PTSD, and we don't even know what the results of the brain injuries that are now survivable will be. And over the next few years, we will get to watch the government who sent them there deny them medical services for injuries sustained in that service. Indeed, we've already seen too much of that.
I don't like the formula "I don't support the war, but I support the troops" because the political reality of that seems to be distorted into "I support the war, because ending it would be to the detriment of the troops." Somehow, because some soldiers from Vietnam were or were not spit upon when they got home, we cannot condemn the wars since. It's crazy.
I'm just about stupid enough to forget what these kids (okay, some of them are older) go through at our behest. My father was in ROTC, his brother was a paratrooper over Germany (the land of his birth yet! who knows how that played in the mind of a 17 year old) their father was an officer in WWI, but I tend to think about the two of them who were professors being professors and that the one who wasn't was a skipper for WHOI. I'm out of touch with people I knew in high school who might have gone on to service. So, I am ignorant. And I forget my lessons and have to be retaught periodically.
The burn has certainly taught me lessons that I never learned previous. I rub shoulders with people of all sorts of different backgrounds and experiences. And I learn to respect people whose lives I could not have imagined before. And I'm glad that I never spit on a service man or woman. And I hope to always remember it is not the troops who are at fault, when it's the men who order them into battle from 1000s of miles away, and wouldn't we have had a little more respect for GWB and Dick Cheney, if any of their offspring had been in service?

But basically, I cannot do justice to this theme. I'm an outsider, stepping on toes, showing how little I do understand. So, I turn it over to someone who's far more eloquent and truthful than I can be.

Rudyard Kipling wrote:Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:49 am

jkisha wrote:unpatriotic

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." ~ George Bernard Shaw

knowmad wrote:Neon, I'm With Fuck You Crowd. That's your fair warning, Don't come to the MnG, better yet Go Burn somewhere else.

Right, because Burning Man is only for people who support the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis & Afghans .

maryanimal wrote:And I'll agree with everyone in saying, if you don't like it here in the U.S. then leave. And don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Right, because the United States is only for people who support the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis & Afghans.

geospyder · Post by **geospyder** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:57 am

There is always something positive to say. Sometimes it takes a while to find it but I did. I like neon tetra's sig.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:16 am

geospyder wrote:There is always something positive to say. Sometimes it takes a while to find it but I did. I like neon tetra's sig.

IIRC, "Evildustbooger" used that sig previously.

lambert13 · Post by **lambert13** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:35 am

1. Not everyone in the military gets to kill people. My brother has been in for over 10 years and has never fired a shot.

2. Patriotism is a lot more than superiority for me. I am incredibly proud of my country (USA). But I also love traveling to other countries and often discover things about those countries that I admire and sometimes am jealous of. Being proud of my country means striving to improve it wherever possible. The USA is far from perfect, but I still love it warts and all.

3. Do you enjoy doing this just to get people angry? Life is too shot amigo.

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:28 pm

JStep wrote:I have to weigh in with Eric on this one. "Did we fight to support his right to yell fire in a crowded theater?" Well, actually YES. If by yelling fire in a crowded theater you mean expressing childish and ill-conceived political opinions, yes that's actually one thing you fought for. This sounds a lot like the divide you hear in military circles between the "flag desecration should be illegal" and "If we ban flag desecration we cheapen the very ideas the flag stands for."... I am firmly in the latter camp. When we start shutting people up because we don't agree with them, we start becoming exactly like those regimes we've fought against and currently fight against, rendering that fight pretty meaningless.

I believe it is ILLEGAL to yell fire in a crowded theater.

I don't have any problem with burning the flag.

I do have a problem with disrespecting those that are putting their lives on the line in defense of the country. Might it verge on treasonous activity? Hmmm....

JK

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:30 pm

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:32 pm

jkisha wrote:
JStep wrote:I have to weigh in with Eric on this one. "Did we fight to support his right to yell fire in a crowded theater?" Well, actually YES. If by yelling fire in a crowded theater you mean expressing childish and ill-conceived political opinions, yes that's actually one thing you fought for. This sounds a lot like the divide you hear in military circles between the "flag desecration should be illegal" and "If we ban flag desecration we cheapen the very ideas the flag stands for."... I am firmly in the latter camp. When we start shutting people up because we don't agree with them, we start becoming exactly like those regimes we've fought against and currently fight against, rendering that fight pretty meaningless.

I believe it is ILLEGAL to yell fire in a crowded theater.

I qualified that in the context of the thread which was "If by yelling fire in a crowded theater you mean expressing childish and ill-conceived political opinions"

I don't have any problem with burning the flag.

I do have a problem with disrespecting those that are putting their lives on the line in defense of the country. Might it verge on treasonous activity? Hmmm....

JK

No, it's just weak, immature, etc etc, but it's not treasonous. When it becomes treasonous to be ill-informed, stupid or disrespectful then we have a bigger problem than people trolling on the internet.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:08 pm

JStep wrote:
jkisha wrote:
I don't have any problem with burning the flag.

I do have a problem with disrespecting those that are putting their lives on the line in defense of the country. Might it verge on treasonous activity? Hmmm....

JK
No, it's just weak, immature, etc etc, but it's not treasonous. When it becomes treasonous to be ill-informed, stupid or disrespectful then we have a bigger problem than people trolling on the internet.

Ayup. If nothing else, n. tetra has managed to alienate a whole bunch of thoughtful people. (And probably some goobers--this is eplaya.) And for so much cheaper than a treason trial would be.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:46 pm

AntiM wrote:Hey Neon... valid opinion. Mine is "fuck off".

oneeyeddick wrote: fuck your attempt at breathing the same air as the rest of us with dignity

Eric wrote:FUCK OFF

jkisha wrote:Hope to never have the displeasure of meeting you.

knowmad wrote:Neon, I'm With Fuck You Crowd. That's your fair warning, Don't come to the MnG, better yet Go Burn somewhere else.

'

maryanimal wrote:neon tetra, a hale and hearty...fuck you, fuck you, fuck you verymuch.

Amazing. Truly, truly amazing that this is how you treat someone who is AGAINST murder.

I think some of you folks really need to examine your belief systems.

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:34 pm

neon tetra wrote:

Amazing. Truly, truly amazing that this is how you treat someone who is AGAINST murder.

I think some of you folks really need to examine your belief systems.

I think you need to examine your trite, black and white, simplistic worldview. I used to make arguments like yours, I even compared soldiers to government sanctioned hit men... WHEN I WAS 12!

You're even trying every bogus little straw man logical tactic like "I'm against murder and you're arguing against something I said therefore you must be PRO-MURDER!" ... give it a rest dude. I don't think anyone here is buying your crap except maybe you.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:36 pm

neon tetra wrote:
AntiM wrote:Hey Neon... valid opinion. Mine is "fuck off".

oneeyeddick wrote: fuck your attempt at breathing the same air as the rest of us with dignity

Eric wrote:FUCK OFF

jkisha wrote:Hope to never have the displeasure of meeting you.

knowmad wrote:Neon, I'm With Fuck You Crowd. That's your fair warning, Don't come to the MnG, better yet Go Burn somewhere else.
'

maryanimal wrote:neon tetra, a hale and hearty...fuck you, fuck you, fuck you verymuch.

Amazing. Truly, truly amazing that this is how you treat someone who is AGAINST murder.

I think some of you folks really need to examine your belief systems.

my, how quaintly narcissistic of you

oh, one who bears sacrosanct beliefs, and opines, as such.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:49 pm

They aren't murderers?

I wonder how many of you have children.
And I wonder what would happen if you came home one day and your entire neighborhood had been bombed.
And you see your children in bloody pieces all over the front lawn.

Would the people in the planes who dropped those bombs be "murderers"?
Or would you just repeat the same excuses that you make for the U.S. troops?

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:20 pm

Is it just me... or do you get the feeling Neon was just a troll waiting to happen........

Or maybe he/she didn't continue beyond 4thgrade in their ejamication...........

Dude.... get a grip.................

[youtube][/youtube]

Post by **Sham** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:36 pm

I think the name for this is "sleeper troll". They start off with friendly post and within a short time turn into the devil!

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:42 pm

How about answering my question instead of just joining the mob and hailing unwarranted insults.

neon tetra wrote: I wonder how many of you have children.
And I wonder what would happen if you came home one day and your entire neighborhood had been bombed.
And you see your children in bloody pieces all over the front lawn.

Would the people in the planes who dropped those bombs be "murderers"?
Or would you just repeat the same excuses that you make for the U.S. troops?

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:01 pm

neon tetra wrote:How about answering my question instead of just joining the mob and hailing unwarranted insults.

Well, 1st you need to get yourself a little human history lesson (starting from about 8,000 yrs ago)........ Trustme, it's ugly..... then you need some lessons in geo-politics..... Trustme, it's also ugly...... Then you need to understand how the military works.... They, by their nature, are designed to go in and blow up shit, and break things.....

No, none of us like it....... but then what are you gonna do, if planes fly into buildings, unprovoked, and your city (children) are blown up, like you describe.....

Crawl in a hole??? WTF is your idea?

[youtube][/youtube]

Post by **Sham** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:10 pm

In the immortal words of Rodney King:

[youtube][/youtube]

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:15 pm

thisisthatwhichis wrote:but then what are you gonna do, if planes fly into buildings, unprovoked, and your city (children) are blown up, like you describe.....

I sure as hell wouldn't go and kill hundreds of thousands of human beings in countries that had nothing to do with said attack. Sadly, however, most of the folks in this thread support that response.

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:22 pm

neon tetra wrote:
thisisthatwhichis wrote:but then what are you gonna do, if planes fly into buildings, unprovoked, and your city (children) are blown up, like you describe.....
I sure as hell wouldn't go and kill hundreds of thousands of human beings in countries that had nothing to do with said attack. Sadly, however, most of the folks in this thread support that response.

False claim.

So many points lost, beyond the point of no return.

Plonk.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:24 pm

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." -- Albert Einstein

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:27 pm

Yea, itsatroll........

Nevermind the first paragraph of my comment that the OP didn't quote..... I guess that would have to require gaining knowledge.....

Sorry, my bad..... I'm done.....................

Post by **Sham** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:34 pm

This one is no troll. It's a beaver. It's like a troll, only furrier!

Beaver!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:36 pm

*slinks in, in my usual, "soft as a feather" style, stealthy, smooth, almost like a ballerina*

*cues background music: dance of the sugar plumb fairies*

Time, to do what I do best:

*does fancy looking magic moves*

DRIFT ON
[youtube][/youtube]

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:24 pm

lambert13 wrote:1. Not everyone in the military gets to kill people. My brother has been in for over 10 years and has never fired a shot.

My wifes father was in the Navy during WWII. His duty? Painting the Oakland Bay Bridge, which got him experience to become a painter for the Chicago School District from the mid 60s until his retirement in 1985.

maryanimal · Post by **maryanimal** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:36 pm

neon tetra wrote:How about answering my question instead of just joining the mob and hailing unwarranted insults.

neon tetra wrote: I wonder how many of you have children.
And I wonder what would happen if you came home one day and your entire neighborhood had been bombed.
And you see your children in bloody pieces all over the front lawn.

Would the people in the planes who dropped those bombs be "murderers"?
Or would you just repeat the same excuses that you make for the U.S. troops?

How about answering my questions?? You seem to avoid answering others' questions. So answer mine! If you have the balls/tits.

"neon tetra: Have you ever served in the military. Do you have sons or daughters that have served in the military? Or family members that have served in the military? Or friends in the military? If so, when was the last time you called them mass murderers??? "

I suspect you won't answer because your puking up all this information about what goes on overseas and swallowing all the propaganda the media shoves down your throat. You have no idea what's going on over there. I know there are military personnal who are doing atrocious (sp.?) things to people over there and they are being punished for it. But there are more who do good. Try looking at all the data before jumping on the narrowminded bandwagon.

maryanimal · Post by **maryanimal** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:38 pm

maryanimal wrote:
neon tetra wrote:How about answering my question instead of just joining the mob and hailing unwarranted insults.

neon tetra wrote: I wonder how many of you have children.
And I wonder what would happen if you came home one day and your entire neighborhood had been bombed.
And you see your children in bloody pieces all over the front lawn.

Would the people in the planes who dropped those bombs be "murderers"?
Or would you just repeat the same excuses that you make for the U.S. troops?
How about answering my questions?? You seem to avoid answering others' questions. So answer mine! If you have the balls/tits.

"neon tetra: Have you ever served in the military. Do you have sons or daughters that have served in the military? Or family members that have served in the military? Or friends in the military? If so, when was the last time you called them mass murderers??? "

I suspect you won't answer because your puking up all this information about what goes on overseas and swallowing all the propaganda the media shoves down your throat. You have no idea what's going on over there. I know there are military personnal who are doing atrocious (sp.?) things to people over there and they are being punished for it. But there are more who do good. Try looking at all the data before jumping on the narrowminded bandwagon.