"I don't support the war, but I do support the troops&q

daratheresa · Post by **daratheresa** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:55 pm

on seconds thought, no. i have to stop coming back and reading this damned thread. it's like picking a scab... sometimes you just can't help it.

knowmad · Post by **knowmad** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:09 pm

Hi I'd like to address again the importance of our mission. To complete our voyage to deliver aid, comfort and support to our fellow humans, while not aiding and or allowing the Sea of War to prevail.

We lack way points on our course. And we also still have malingerers among us.

But first of our course;
as the first way point I would like to point to a very basic marker buoy just off our bow.
It is inscribed; "To Deliver aid to a soldier human, we could view the soldier as being sexless, and of no particular race with no particular religious view. just a human adult with a job, at that level they are exactly like us."

and to address the crew to the distracting nature of the counter-mutineers, their cries of obstination are as loud and destructive as this sea of war apon which we sail. But we do not fight the sea, we cross it. we never allow it to have the upper hand. and so too we should not be alarmed or frighend by the bable of waves that crash on our bow.

We must have more practical examples of mutual-aid and comfort, and less rhetorical saber rattling and bickering.
Now heave-ho and trice up, for our mission is urgent and good.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:13 pm

Just out of curiosity, does anyone else in here think that Iraq attacked us on 9/11?

Can we at least find common ground on the fact that the sentiment of Iraq attacking us on that day, while quite common, is complete rubbish?

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:26 pm

Of course they didn't.

Civilians deaths are indeed tragic, but isn't it also tragic that these men and women are turned into killers by the government they trust? Of course there are degrees, but it seem so harsh to have zero compassion for them.

Would you go to jail as a tax protester? Or is that too much of a sacrifice? Where do you draw your line? What action would you deem appropriate for us as individuals? Just curious, and no, I'm not asking so I can attack, I truly am curious. I find myself redefining my views constantly. No, I won't condemn our troops, but neither do I hate all of Islam either. I've lived in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Their stances and individual views are just as hazy-gray and complicated as ours. Even the best people do horrendous things, even bad people have redeeming qualities.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:36 pm

Thank you for a non-ridiculous reply. They are rare 'round these parts.

I do take issue with the whole "government turned them into killers" thing though. No one can make you kill ('Saw' movies notwithstanding); it's always your conscious choice.
And pretty much anyone who joined the military after Vietnam had to know that our government was willing to sacrifice American soldiers (and PLENTY of other human beings) for less-than-noble causes.

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:48 pm

Well, I just have to accept you don't truly know many active duty folks nor veterans on a personal level. The killing is abstract and intellectualized. Modern warfare is long distance and faceless for the most part. Very few kids joining the military, except some for the Marines and Army infantry actually expect to pull a trigger. Sailors are shocked when they end up in the sandbox. Yes, I know of idealistic youngsters who fully expect to be trained, do a day job for a few years, then get out and go to college. They honestly think thats how it goes. For some, it does. Others, not so much.

Still curious about what, if any, action you would deem appropriate. Take your time, I'm about to wander off.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:24 pm

AntiM wrote:The killing is abstract and intellectualized. Modern warfare is long distance and faceless for the most part.

I know, and I think that's maybe the most frightening part. You don't even have to think about what's really happening. You just push a few buttons like you're playing a video game, and *BAM* . . Death & destruction.

I'm happy that it keeps our soldiers safer, but I think we've actually made it a bit TOO easy.

AntiM wrote:Still curious about what, if any, action you would deem appropriate. Take your time, I'm about to wander off.

Each case is unique, there are very few absolutes. I do believe in a country's right to protect itself from unwarranted invasions, but even that is obviously not always a black & white issue. I do not believe in richer & more powerful nations taking advantage of weaker ones. YES, I know that's basically the summary of human history, but I don't think that justifies it.
I also think that getting involved in another nation's affairs is a very delicate and risky matter (as history or a good episode of Star Trek will illustrate). And getting involved without even having a plan....is just plain asinine.

But that's where we are.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:46 pm

daratheresa wrote:
what was the point of posting in the first place? knowing it's a hot button issue? the reaction of people? are you looking for people to agree with you? trying to make everyone agree with you? wanting to be convinced of something different? shaky in your own belief?

For the reaction. Nobody could really believe that crap he's posting. Including the poster.

JK

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:35 pm

"It seems like all the world is fighting.
They're even talking of a war...."

Driving
Ray Davies
Kinks

How safe were these places before we got there?

I wonder how safe they will be after we leave?

Ever look at one of those lists of all the wars going on at any given time?
Most never make the news.

So many places...

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:49 am

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:51 am

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:01 am

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:14 am

folks in Rochester, could use those, I bet.........

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:34 am

im wearing one RIGHT NOW!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:39 am

be sure to loosen the cinch strap every 4 hours, to ensure circulation, and, to avoid tissue damage

Aiee! It burns! · Post by **Aiee! It burns!** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:32 am

u need a tissue already ?

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:25 am

neon tetra wrote:And if I'm so stubborn, how about answering my original question, which no one has done thus far.

How can you support the troops, but not support their mission?

I have two friends that come to mind. Both are members of the US military, both are medics, and they have been to Iraq. One experienced almost no combat, the other was forced to pick up arms to defend himself and his comrades on more than one occasion. They were both profoundly affected by their experiences, and neither of them had anything like what they were expecting.

I knew both of them before they enlisted, and neither joined to kill people. Both of them went in specifically as medics, and one has gone on to continue his medical training outside the service. I supported them in their choice to join the military, and I don't hold them accountable for decisions made by other people that led to the cluster-phuck that is Iraq. I understand the difference between enlisted personnel, officers, and politicians.

Those two friends of mine are just a couple of the literally hundreds of people I have known that have served in the military, including my parents.

I can say I support the troops, in that a large percentage of the enlisted personnel in the military are much like those two friends of mine. And, since I am a human being capable of higher thought and empathy, I can use those two friends as a metaphor in my mind for the average soldier.

Question answered. Now please shut the hell up and take a basic philosophy course and perhaps a military history class.

knowmad · Post by **knowmad** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:45 am

The CO wrote:
neon tetra wrote:And if I'm so stubborn, how about answering my original question, which no one has done thus far.

How can you support the troops, but not support their mission?
...
I can say I support the troops, in that a large percentage of the enlisted personnel in the military are much like those two friends of mine. And, since I am a human being capable of higher thought and empathy, I can use those two friends as a metaphor in my mind for the average soldier.

Question answered. Now please shut the hell up and take a basic philosophy course and perhaps a military history class.

Hi CO! We've tried an appeal to a sense of reason here and got nowhere. I've begun a subthread whithin that addresses such.

I also believe that another way most of the support what we show for our troops is on the empathetic level. I woke up to the fact while serving in the navy, the overall hostility, and mechanization was a very hard place to culture human connections. It was very Isolating. I watched a few of the fellas begin very damaging and sometimes fatal self destructive behavior and choices. Each time we returned to port a broken marriage on the pier, suicides because of the don't ask don't tell policy. Broken people. But even there I was in contact with people that loved. And then one day my enlistment was done. I went to work for the State Department thinking maybe If I understood why all the urgency and pressure the human suffering factor could be looked at maybe I'd make sense out of it. Witnessing a country torn into infighting factions with villages slaughtering neighboring villages, and suffering beyond words, made me realize the urgency, the need for a strong military presence. and while searching for evidence that would bring to justice the genocidal leaders of this travesty I watched a soldier do his job. My heart goes out to those that suffer because of war, because of our intolerance, because of black and white.

I support my fellow brothers in arms by giving them a kind smile, a sympathetic shoulder and political backing on issues that put them in harms way.

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:33 pm

The CO wrote:the other was forced to pick up arms to defend himself and his comrades on more than one occasion.

It's not "defense" when they're the INVADING FORCE.

Much like If I break into your house, fully armed, and you rightfully fight back... If I shoot you, IT WAS NOT IN "DEFENSE". If I kill you in your own house, I'm a MURDERER, not a 'hero' defending myself.

It's very simple, yet your blind nationalism won't allow you to see this.

As an aside, I would personally like to thank all of the people that contacted my privately and SUPPORTED me & my stance in this clusterfuck of a thread. It's sad that you chose not to post in here, for fear of being blacklisted by the eplaya mob, but I fully understand why you made that choice.

Parasitoid · Post by **Parasitoid** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:55 pm

It's the same as saying

"I don't take any responsibility for the military's actions but I am totally on their side!"

Aiee! It burns! · Post by **Aiee! It burns!** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:19 pm

If the troops start shooting at you, I'll bet theres a point where you stopping sporting them .

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:47 pm

As an aside, I would personally like to thank all of the people that contacted my privately and SUPPORTED me & my stance in this clusterfuck of a thread. It's sad that you chose not to post in here, for fear of being blacklisted by the eplaya mob, but I fully understand why you made that choice.

NAMES!

WE WANT NAMES!

so we can e-lynch them.

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:50 pm

neon tetra wrote: It's not "defense" when they're the INVADING FORCE.

Semantic argument, Post hoc, ergo propter hoc -1 point.

neon tetra wrote: It's very simple, yet your blind nationalism won't allow you to see this.

It is not simple by any means. The amount of posting in this thread proves otherwise. Blind nationalism would be more applicable to people that are argue supporting the troops means you must support the war, such as the average neo-conservative viewpoint.

Perhaps an analogy:
A friend of yours is in a band.
That band plays music that you hate.
Do you stop being friends with the person you know in the band?
Or, do you continue to be friends with (support) that person, but not buy albums or tickets to their bands show?

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:18 pm

Playing bad music is one thing, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings is another.
Your analogy is as bad as your flawed 'logic'.

If I storm into a bank with guns in each hand, and the guards start shooting at me.. and I kill them.. was I just "defending" myself? Would that make me a "hero"? Would you put a stupid magnetic ribbon on your car to "support" my killing?

daratheresa · Post by **daratheresa** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:00 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:
As an aside, I would personally like to thank all of the people that contacted my privately and SUPPORTED me & my stance in this clusterfuck of a thread. It's sad that you chose not to post in here, for fear of being blacklisted by the eplaya mob, but I fully understand why you made that choice.

NAMES!

WE WANT NAMES!

so we can e-lynch them.

i contacted him privately. we have a pretty decent debate going on, actually. and while i see where he's coming from, no, i don't support him. but i'm always up for a good, sportsmanlike, college course style debate, and i do have a lot to say on this issue.

if you feel that's worth e-lynching, go for it. just promise you'll take pictures?

Mojojita · Post by **Mojojita** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:28 pm

NT, I'm confused - do you think we should not have military forces? If you think we should, (even for "self-defense"), should they question each order for awhile before acting on it - or not act on any order that would have a voilent outcome?

I guess I am trying to go one click past your scenario of the bombed neighborhood - once the semantics of "murder or war" are decided by committee, then what happens?

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:45 pm

i have yet another question - how do you feel about US troop presence in other areas, e.g. korea?

neon tetra · Post by **neon tetra** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:45 pm

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

neon tetra wrote:
AntiM wrote:Still curious about what, if any, action you would deem appropriate. Take your time, I'm about to wander off.
Each case is unique, there are very few absolutes. I do believe in a country's right to protect itself from unwarranted invasions, but even that is obviously not always a black & white issue. I do not believe in richer & more powerful nations taking advantage of weaker ones. YES, I know that's basically the summary of human history, but I don't think that justifies it.
I also think that getting involved in another nation's affairs is a very delicate and risky matter (as history or a good episode of Star Trek will illustrate). And getting involved without even having a plan....is just plain asinine.

But that's where we are.

Mojojita · Post by **Mojojita** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:53 pm

For the record, yes, I am firmly in the group that can say proudly that I do not support the war but I do, with both word and deed, support the troops.

I have spent countless hours and days standing in protest of armed conflict. I also volunteer with two organizations that support our armed forces. Those activities are not mutually exclusive.

The men and women of our armed forces have sworn to uphold and defend the constitution of their country. They put themselves in harm's way and they fight and die DESPITE the terrible possibility that their leaders may be wrong. They do it because when they are told they are needed by their country, they step up.

Where do you draw the line? A friend of mine, a young lady at the time, had just received her black belt when she was attacked by a would-be rapist with a knife (he had a long criminal record of such crimes). She killed him with one blow and will pay for the rest of her life for having done so. Are you a murderer only if the people you kill are innocent? Or is anyone who kills guilty of murder?

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:58 pm

neon tetra wrote: I do not believe in richer & more powerful nations taking advantage of weaker ones.

are you suggesting that it's wrong for rich and powerful nations to take advantage of weaker ones???

lol ...

duh...

how, exactly, do you propose to prevent the rich and powerful from attacking the weak? do you really think disbanding the US military will accomplish anything?

"I don't support the war, but I do support the troops&q

how did you know?