So this is how liberty dies...

All things outside of Burning Man.
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Post by Lassen Forge » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:26 pm

1durphul wrote:You know, CSS was pretty right on about the huge financial crisis. If you look at the Long Cold Winter thread's start date it was about 6 months before ...
I think since then though he's found himself in an echo chamber and has stopped looking for news external to the echo chamber which could disprove some fo the assertions echoing in the chamber.
Point is, I think CSS would benefit from taking a step back and reassessing the the things he is looking at and draw in additional sources that he knows don't have an agenda on the topic.
Sorry for quoting all that, but I agree. CSS seemed to have a really good feel for the pulse. Like all of us (OK, most of us), you get too wrapped tight into something and you start doing a mobius loop.

He did some amazing research, and I look forward to more of it.

IMO (O only) the biggest problem are the parties and the ideology that cancered within them all. Like anything else, once you gain power, you will NOT give it up, and instead struggle to gain more. With our failing 2 party system it's visibly evident. You have 2 parties that are no closer to their true core beliefs than air is to the moon, yet in the name of that human need to have power over other humans, it's been skewed so bad that if you were to drop adherants of their respective parties from, say, 150 years ago, into congress right now, they would not know which side of the aisle to stand upon.

Face it. Those with power depend on the sheep to keep feeding them at the trough of power, control, authority, and self-aggrandizement no matter which party they are in. It's evident that the lip service we are paid is just to keep us sheep fat, dumb, and happy - fluff - while the reality is they don't want to lose the might they hold us by the short hairs with.

When I look at the freshmen congress (and rarely, the senators) who are fuull of these grandiose alturistic words... sleeping on cots in their office, for instance... EVERY ONE OF THEM has said the same thing, made the same promises to their people, but give them time. They will either grasp the power to use for their own benevolence, forget you little guys, or they will be out of office. The politician who was a true servant to the people is an extinct creature.

I've been in deep with more than a couple parties, on more than one continent. The patterns are identical. And sadly, just as it has done in EVERY empire, it leads to its own downfall, leaving the people to stand, stare in blatant disbelief, and either re-adapt to the currrent situation or get mowed down.

Look at history. Remember, those in power do NOT want you to remember history. But you should... if for no other reason than to be prepared.

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you mean jerry brown is Dead?

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:39 pm

The politician who was a true servant to the people is an extinct creature.

i am also a student of history and at one time neck deep in partisan politics, and i hope that this statement is not true for all of our sakes.

i want to believe, heroes don't make history, History makes Heroes.

we cannot predict with any certainty what will happen when ordinary men and women rise to meet whatever occasion awaits us.

not all leaders intend or even do harm, and human worth and decency occasionally do triumph, even in the face of tremendous adversity.

the human will is the strongest and at the same time the most flexible thing on the planet, it endures, if nothing else.
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Post by wraith » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:47 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:you're right...I Like Ike, and Abraham Lincoln, and Dick Lugar.

all republicans.


i stand corrected.

It's the Lunatic fringe that has Taken over the republican Party by having oral sex with the Tea-Baggers, and then bringing that shit home with them to infect the rest of the horde.

it is what it is.
That's the thing that kills me. Hell, I used to be a registered Republican, but the crazy bastards who've infested the party leadership drove me (and a pretty good percentage of my late-20's demographic) out with sheer hatemongering and their approach to social and fiscal policy. The leadership of both parties, but the GOP especially, seem to be operating on a strategy of forcing the divide in US politics to be as wide as humanly possible in order to ensure that those within the party that don't fully agree with the radicals on either extreme support their actions anyway as the middle ground is a no-man's land.

We've got a great example going here in Iowa just now. Last year, the State Supreme Court struck down a law banning the marriage of homosexual couples as unconstitutional due to discrimination. A further attempt on the ballot to convene a constitutional convention to modify the state constitution failed by a 2/3 vote as well. Rather than going about the political process to amend the state constitution (which they now know will not get the votes to happen), the far-right wing instead opted to spend millions of dollars in advertising get the three supreme court judges up for retention votes this cycle dismissed from office.

The State Supreme Court ruled properly on the legality of the issue and not on morality or partisan politics... and they are punished for it via dismissal, not for performance, but for refusing to base their decision on religious doctrine while those opposing the decision scream about 'Activist Judges'.

Even more fun, last week 57 out of 60 the state's Republican senators signed on as co-sponsors to a bill intended to put another attempt to redefine marriage as only between one man and one woman on the public ballot for next election cycle. While you can almost admire their dogged attempts to force their view on the rest of the state, this sort of law has already been declared unconstitutional by the state, and forcing it through again is simply showing that they have no regard for the rule of law if it is in conflict with their 'godly' morals.


Of it all, all I see is a large group of politicians obsessed with forcing their views on a public that, as the votes of shown, do not agree, rather than focusing on taking care of their people during an economic crisis. And that makes me both angry and sad.

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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:53 pm

Were we talking about Republicans that lie (intentionally)?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... b-killing/

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Post by jerroc » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:31 pm

No matter what president gets into office people are going to think they are fucking up the american dream. Fuck the president, fuck the democrats, fuck the republicans, people keep saying. When are we going to take resposibilty for our own actions. We want the highest paying jobs and the cheapest goods. We vote these same assholes into office and then complain. We keep buying over sea products and complain that that we need jobs back in america. The housing market crashed because we are greedy americans and have opened our national border to wide. Schools cut back on education and we complain. Last I checked they are our kids. But people are content to complain about lack of education and do nothing rather than taking responsibilty for their childrens education. Fuck you america grow up and take responsibilty. Take action. Or shut up and be happy with the scraps Washington leaves us. Stop pointing fingers at them its your country.

Now go and make daddy proud.

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Post by Lassen Forge » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:47 pm

jerroc wrote:... When are we going to take resposibilty for our own actions?
We keep buying over sea products and complain that that we need jobs back in america...
Schools cut back on education and we complain. Last I checked they are our kids...
Fuck you america grow up and take responsibilty. Take action. Or shut up and be happy with the scraps Washington leaves us. Stop pointing fingers at them... its your country.
+1 and thank you.

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Post by d6 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:35 pm

but taking personal responsibility is so hard, and
it leaves me with less time to smash i-phone rave button.

so may i instead suggest moving our 2 party system participants to Kyrgyzstan to become clan leaders and fight it out over water rights?
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

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Post by Trishntek » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:47 pm

BBS and Simon,, You both expressed everything with which I wholeheartedly agree and cannot take exception with anything you said. Well done!

It is easy to deny the fact of what I've heard termed, "Exceptualism". The right person fulfilling destiny can change the world. We've witnessed that the past two years, I believe. Left or Right, Liberal or Conservative, Progressive or Traditional there are individuals who can inspire and actually LEAD instead of HERD the masses.
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Post by ygmir » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:45 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
jerroc wrote:... When are we going to take resposibilty for our own actions?
We keep buying over sea products and complain that that we need jobs back in america...
Schools cut back on education and we complain. Last I checked they are our kids...
Fuck you america grow up and take responsibilty. Take action. Or shut up and be happy with the scraps Washington leaves us. Stop pointing fingers at them... its your country.
+1 and thank you.
I concur with BBS
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Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:55 pm

NOT DEAD YET!

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Post by ygmir » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:13 pm

[youtube][/youtube]
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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:47 pm

Well, I see that Pollyanna is quite pissed off. Some of you think that I should "step back". None of you known what my background is. None of you know what my limits are. This is true in reverse also. There are those who I respect their opinion and those who I don't. Dr Placebo and Geekster have kept all discourse at a polite, professional level. The most derogatory thing I said to Dr Placebo was that he "had lost objectivity". There are many others who's opinion I respect.
No one knows all possible information. So, we debate, present ideas,, and try to arrive as close to the truth as possible. Derision and defamation won't bring anyone closer to the truth. Bring your opinions, facts and beliefs out into the harsh light of day for everyone to examine.
We don't try to arrive at nice truths. There are plenty of ugly things posted in the IJJZ thread. Does "ugly" make them less true? ,,,less important?

"kill them? really? That's cocoa puff talk!"
OK, congress is responsible for killing millions of "sand niggers and towel heads". Do we discount their deaths because they aren't like us? Do we somehow discount their humanity? Do we claim that they were a threat to us? Do we claim WMD and that the deaths were necessary? We go on killing them for no rhyme or reason. We kill them for pipelines and drugs. Does that make it OK?
Did we ever justify Viet-Nam? Why did we kill all those "slopes"? What did they do to us?
As long as we push all the "ugly" facts into some nice "sanitized" compartment in our brains, we can continue to kill millions who are no threat to us.
The endless killing absolutely disgusts me.

As far as being in an "echo chamber", I don't believe so [natch] I read the cheerleaders,,, briefly. Most of my reading is concentrated on those who have proven themselves to be correct over time. Why should I read Krugman? I saw the crash coming in '05 and I came back to work to get a grub-stake. I started the thread in '07,,, 2 years later.
Most people who I talk to haven't a clue to the basic and structural problems. I try to form complete pictures out of groups of ideas. Everybody has a different capacity for projecting ideas or situations into the future.
If you spent 50 hours a week, for 5 years reading the archives of very well-informed,,, very smart people, you would have a more complete picture.
I read all sides. The Daily Reckoning says to buy a bunch of houses. Sheer stupidity when you consider that the jobs will never come back. The East-West wage disparity is only going to LESSEN. It will never revert to the 60s. Without wages, housing will never return to it's previous relative value. I don't post the obviously stupid stuff.

A true student of history would see an almost-boring repetition of history. A true debater would bring supporting facts rather than mindless derision. A true debater wouldn't have garnered the nickname, "simple simon"

I've never belittled anyone's input who was being sincere,,, right or wrong.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:53 pm

far from simple, i am.


you should at least know that by now.


your rabble does not rouse me, especially since you have given one of your socks away unintentionally.


c'est la guerre, n'est-ce pas?
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:56 pm

One of your better posts CSS

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:39 pm

I'm truly flabbergasted. I've never had a sock anywhere. C'est vrai !
"simple" was not from me. I rarely get any more derogatory that "Pollyanna"

I assume that most of you say "Fiddler on the Roof". There is a scene where Topol and others ask the Rabbi if they should worry about the far-off pogroms. The Rabbi opines,,,no. He then goes on to say a blessing for the Czar. May god bless the Czar and keep him very far from here. It didn't happen that way for them.

The U.S. is a failed empire. It will do what all failed empires try to do. The last 10 years have seen a desperate trampling of rights and liberties.

This from the Daily Reckining;
"As Murray Rothbard, the man credited with having coined the term anarcho-capitalism, expressed in Society and the State:

"I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual. Anarchists oppose the State because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights."

We can expect nothing more from an agent of force than that which is its primary, defining characteristic; namely, more force. A mule is no more capable of giving birth to a unicorn than the state is capable of “grantingâ€
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by TomServo » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:45 pm

[quote="can't sit still"]I'm truly flabbergasted. I've never had a sock anywhere. C'est vrai !
"simple" was not from me. I rarely get any more derogatory that "Pollyanna"

I assume that most of you say "Fiddler on the Roof". There is a scene where Topol and others ask the Rabbi if they should worry about the far-off pogroms. The Rabbi opines,,,no. He then goes on to say a blessing for the Czar. May god bless the Czar and keep him very far from here. It didn't happen that way for them.

The U.S. is a failed empire. It will do what all failed empires try to do. The last 10 years have seen a desperate trampling of rights and liberties.

This from the Daily Reckining;
"As Murray Rothbard, the man credited with having coined the term anarcho-capitalism, expressed in Society and the State:

"I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual. Anarchists oppose the State because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights."

We can expect nothing more from an agent of force than that which is its primary, defining characteristic; namely, more force. A mule is no more capable of giving birth to a unicorn than the state is capable of “grantingâ€
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by TomServo » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:00 pm

never mind! forgot I gave up politics.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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guilt by association.

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:13 pm

[quote="can't sit still"]I'm truly flabbergasted. I've never had a sock anywhere. C'est vrai !
"simple" was not from me. I rarely get any more derogatory that "Pollyanna"

I assume that most of you say "Fiddler on the Roof". There is a scene where Topol and others ask the Rabbi if they should worry about the far-off pogroms. The Rabbi opines,,,no. He then goes on to say a blessing for the Czar. May god bless the Czar and keep him very far from here. It didn't happen that way for them.

The U.S. is a failed empire. It will do what all failed empires try to do. The last 10 years have seen a desperate trampling of rights and liberties.

This from the Daily Reckining;
"As Murray Rothbard, the man credited with having coined the term anarcho-capitalism, expressed in Society and the State:

"I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual. Anarchists oppose the State because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights."

We can expect nothing more from an agent of force than that which is its primary, defining characteristic; namely, more force. A mule is no more capable of giving birth to a unicorn than the state is capable of “grantingâ€
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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:29 pm

One can give up politics but, It's pretty damn hard to give up economics. ALL police states are economically repressive. Millions starve to death in North Korea.
The old paradigms are GONE. That's why I put so much employment info on the survival thread.
GOV has proved itself completely incapable of dealing with the structural changes in the country and economy. Under what scenario could you imagine millions of jobs coming back from China and India? Considering that GOV is short about $ 202 trillion, what do you think is the future of the safety net?

GOV said that the FED would buy $ 600 billion in bonds up to June. They never said that they would stop in June. They buy 75% of every issuance and then buy most of the rest in the secondary market. They can't possibly stop printing;
http://usawatchdog.com/economic-stimulu ... asing-qe3/
What does history say about the outcome?

What does history say about perpetual war?;
http://www.thedailybell.com/1683/Anthon ... yment.html
http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2011 ... war-state/

We print for continuous war. We've buried ourselves and won't stop. If we stop printing, we collapse in a day. If we keep printing, we collapse in a year? Nobody knows. There is no possibility of escape. A default is inevitable. I expect the safety net to get shredded. GOV appears to be readying a goon-squad for that eventuality.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:34 pm

"Bring your opinions, facts and beliefs out into the harsh light of day for everyone to examine. "
As usual, opinion and nothing more. A "simple" response.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:45 pm

I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by d6 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:07 pm

generalizations:

the ussr folds, Kazakhstan is upriver so now holds the water and wealth, leaving the other reformed 'Stans dry and to fight it out - most humane living condition progress that had been made under the ussr system quickly reverts to clan warfare, and you now have some of the poorest countries battling over fresh water and territorial control. again.
history repeating....

syria (almost out of oil!) and the euphrates drying up last year leads to the dispossessed in tent cities........so i guess practicing in the black rock isn't all bad,
while the political mess here seems to be an effective disorient tactic for further global economic blunders, driving the (semi)educated to a frustrating oblivion of non-choices - clean water or educate the kids? non-toxic-ally damaged fruits and vegetables or septic treatment plants? fire dept or cops?____________or____________?

what was that analogy, "9 meals away from anarchy"? i don't recall if fresh water was in there somewhere....

either way, knowing is fun.
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

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Post by Lassen Forge » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:19 am

Water is always part of the equation. Without it, 3 days plus or minus, you die.

While Black Rock is a good place to practice, it's not really real, as where do you get your water from? There ain't gonna be no Costco with cases of 1/2 liter bottles or Solari's with 2 1/2 gallon cubes WTSHTF. Whatcha gonna do for water? Most of the springs there are non-potable (anyone here get the runs from Frog Pond Water??), and have you tried punching the playa to extract water out of it?

Even then, do you have a filter to clear the water so you can drink it?

Lots to consider. The playa is fun, but it's not making do with what don't. Personally - it's not high on my choice of bug-out locations.

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Post by can't sit still » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:37 am

I was going to post about water but, I prefer a different thread. GOV is getting increasingly snotty about you recording it's actions. Filming TSA is a good way to catch hell. Ever since the Rodney King mess, cops don't want their picture taken.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1By9Fzp5m
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Post by Simon of the Playa » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:57 am

your sources are biased. You are biased CSS.

echo-chamber is the correct term.

alarmist, tea-bagging pseudo-conservatism masquerading as "News".


i stand by my bias..Your info is shit.
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Post by ygmir » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:03 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Water is always part of the equation. Without it, 3 days plus or minus, you die.

While Black Rock is a good place to practice, it's not really real, as where do you get your water from? There ain't gonna be no Costco with cases of 1/2 liter bottles or Solari's with 2 1/2 gallon cubes WTSHTF. Whatcha gonna do for water? Most of the springs there are non-potable (anyone here get the runs from Frog Pond Water??), and have you tried punching the playa to extract water out of it?

Even then, do you have a filter to clear the water so you can drink it?

Lots to consider. The playa is fun, but it's not making do with what don't. Personally - it's not high on my choice of bug-out locations.
such good points, BBS:
of all "bug out" locals......the playa would be about the last to choose.

Water is the KEY.
the west slope (in north america) of any mountain range, lower elevations, is the best, for that.
Here where I live, you're hard pressed to go a mile in any direction, and not find water.
A good filter makes it drinkable, and, lacking that, iodine, chlorine, or fire can still mostly fix it.

you gotta think in terms of "layers of the onion".......what you need to survive, and for how long.

*rant off*
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Post by d6 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:04 am

i'd never aim for the black rock to survive, just a mildly cheeky reference to being in the desert. - it just ridiculous that the political power struggles all seemingly come down to ruination rather than being a machine that should implement actual benefit for all instead of a very select few, regardless of country or historical context.
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

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Post by ygmir » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:14 am

d6 wrote:i'd never aim for the black rock to survive, just a mildly cheeky reference to being in the desert. - it just ridiculous that the political power struggles all seemingly come down to ruination rather than being a machine that should implement actual benefit for all instead of a very select few, regardless of country or historical context.
take humans out of it, and, it's work just like you want.....people, given the chance, are inherently greedy......it all falls in line, from there.
IMHO.
Altruism, usually only comes after their belly is full and they're warm and comfortable.
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Post by FIGJAM » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:34 am

Not sure I agree on the greed thing.

Maybe it's just me, but when I play the "What would I do if I won the lottery." game, My first thoughts go to how can I help others and have it really make a difference.

I've been trying most of my life to help those that seem to be in need.

Investing time and cash, but the change that need's to take place in the person i'm trying to help for it to be affective never seem's to take place.

Asking that they do something for me in exchange for help even if it's always just something I want them to do for themself's makes no difference.

I cant stop myself from trying though. :?
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Post by jerroc » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:41 am

CSS check out who owns the FED.

(Hint... its not the government).

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