aya nooow, ow is eet yu am dinkin abuud me badly?Major Krash wrote:., I hope no one gives him any cash. This has "Nigerian Prince" written all over it!
wadch wad yuu zay dair.
gross ebay post
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curiousgnate
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:46 am
- Location: Denver
Eric I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion. I agree with you and know that the people who might buy this experience will need someone like you in order to experience the event in a better way and get the most out of it that they can. My problem does not lie with the people that would conceivable buy this package, but with Kevin whom I think is doing this for the, in my opinion, "wrong" reasons. Clarity i think your ten principle dissection of the whole deal is right on. Unjonharley I am the OP not Kevin. but I also think you are right on. Clarity and JStep I also think you are right on I think this might just be a Troll. Which years was Kevin at BM? Where did he camp? I think he might be someone who wanted to stir shit up here which he did but It's been quite a popcorn moment for me sooo.... as far as helping him learn how to help rich people burn well no fucking way that is not something I would be willing to do. I would gladly hang out with some rich people at burningman and in fact have already many times. I just get a sense of something weird going on from this dude and wonder what his real motivation is and if he is really going to offer this service, or just wanted to start a debate. In any event I hope if people do buy this package that it ends up costing more then Kevin could even conceive of and that he stops trying to use this event as a way to make money. oh yeah edited to add this... ISO you are amazing!
Creating Peace Through Anarchy Every Day!!! Stagger for life!
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Leo
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 9:25 pm
- Burning Since: 2009
- Camp Name: Go the F**k to Sleep
- Location: Seattle
One point that seems to be missed is that this is an auction item and $95k is the asking price. The final bid price might be lower or it might be higher, as the marketplace will ultimately decide what the "package tour" is worth.
I hear a lot of "burnier then thou" comments on this thread, similar to the tent vs. RV debates. Who are we to judge another person's experience of Burning Man? If someone wants to fly in, have their camp set up, eat good food, and drink good booze while they experience Burning Man (in air-conditioned comfort), then leave BRC quickly without folding up their camp, good for them.
I appreciate Sacramentogames participating on this thread, explaining his concept, and keeping his side of the discussion civil.
I hear a lot of "burnier then thou" comments on this thread, similar to the tent vs. RV debates. Who are we to judge another person's experience of Burning Man? If someone wants to fly in, have their camp set up, eat good food, and drink good booze while they experience Burning Man (in air-conditioned comfort), then leave BRC quickly without folding up their camp, good for them.
I appreciate Sacramentogames participating on this thread, explaining his concept, and keeping his side of the discussion civil.
Best Regards,
Leo
Leo
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Dustdevil
- Posts: 843
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:10 pm
- Burning Since: 1996
- Camp Name: Brain Freeze / Got Stickers
- Location: West Oakland
- Contact:
Most likely he would purchase a vendor pass like the rest of the businesses that bring in trailers and gear for participants. That would allow him in early and in/out passes to service his equipment.Major Krash wrote:Eric wrote:Kevin has responded to my offer, and I am very serious about it.
Are they planning a registered theme camp, with early entry passes to set-up early for their Clients? If so, then they probably will not be completely truthful on the application for placement (if they expect to get placed - unless there is another placement option for profit-making ventures not available to the lowly masses).
???
As far as Mutant Vehicles go, unless they the operator of the MV has a valid and current disabled placard, the vehicle will be required to go through the same process that everyone else does, including the LEO Mutant Vehicle(s).
Those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right.
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oneeyeddick
- Posts: 5589
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:08 pm
- Burning Since: 1996
- Location: Probably in your pants
And about that art car.Major Krash wrote:Eric wrote:Kevin has responded to my offer, and I am very serious about it.
..this is good - however, I still see some potential issues for Kevin and Crew even if they accept your services.
Are they planning a registered theme camp, with early entry passes to set-up early for their Clients? If so, then they probably will not be completely truthful on the application for placement (if they expect to get placed - unless there is another placement option for profit-making ventures not available to the lowly masses).
If they are not a theme camp, then they will be rushing in with everyone else in the Monday traffic jam...scrambling for a decent spot (all RV's in a caravan, weaving through the streets of BRC in the pre-dawn hours...hopefully not another dust storm). Then, a mad rush to set-up the shade, get the water bottles on-ice, get the mutated vehicle ready (and licensed for day, and night) all in time for the arrival at the airport (by plane or chopper...)
???
If the people that you "borrow" it to cause any damage to themselves or to others, YOU are responsible for that damage.
Chances are you will be denied a permit at all if the hotties get wind of what your plans are to do with said MV(used for your profiteering venture)
With that being said, I am really starting to lean towards Unjon's belief that you are a scam artist at best, and a cockroach that needs squished regardless.
There already is a "tour" bus that takes the elderly and those not able to be self-reliant on a little art tour, this is completely beyond that in scope and acceptability.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Sham
- Moderator
- Posts: 8951
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 am
- Location: The hidden mythical place.....
I have a feeling that the person responding is NOT the same person offering the package on eBay. It is entertaining, but I don't think he's real.
If someone is smart enough to amass $95,000 in the bank, they are probably smart enough not to hand that money over to someone offer to loan you an RV for a week's vacation in the Black Rock Desert.
Just think of the high end world wide vacation you can get for the same money.
I will predict that this item goes unsold on eBay. If by some insane chance this does sell, I am getting into that business.
If someone is smart enough to amass $95,000 in the bank, they are probably smart enough not to hand that money over to someone offer to loan you an RV for a week's vacation in the Black Rock Desert.
Just think of the high end world wide vacation you can get for the same money.
I will predict that this item goes unsold on eBay. If by some insane chance this does sell, I am getting into that business.
While I've rarely posted on these forums before, I think this thread is a very important one to consider philosophically. I know I'll be bringing it up to all my burner friends to see how they feel and why they feel that way. Sure, it may be fake or not a new concept, but BM is ever-evolving and it doesn't exist in a vacuum without context, which is why I think reading and participating here is worthwhile.
While the debate in this thread seems to center around the claims Sgames is making, things he's offering, questioning if he's a troll, and debating the details therein, (and I agree those are vital parts of this discussion), I think there are some subtle points being largely overlooked about WHY many of us find this practice/proposition upsetting. Only a few previous posters have touched on these emotional themes, with no substantive replies.
Sgames' practice seems to prick many of us emotionally, and I think we should examine and analyze WHY. In adding to what was said about Sgames' practice being parasitic, and that it violates most of the 10 principles, I believe the types of people Sgames is drawing into BM are harmful to our culture, and harmful to AUTHENTICITY itself in the BM context.
In short, the people most likely to be attracted to this offer won't be genuinely participating or contributing to the event; they will be passively CONSUMING the art and entertainment they expect the rest of us to provide. This role they will play in addition to the context in which they arrive to the event will foster a feeling of entitlement, which can lead to judgement of others at the event, expectations to 'be entertained,' and that BM is just a big crazy party. This prevents them from experiencing and understanding many of the core principles most burners agree are central to what BM is. Like we say, no spectators. And buying 1000's of 'gifts' for your clients to hand out is probably not a good idea-- no one likes pointless trinkets, and this doesn't encourage your clients to truly give from the heart or CREATE anything themselves with unique value. Same with the mutant vehicle - it's being created solely to fit in and provide a means of transportation for the clients - NOT as a work of art they came up with organically and selflessly want to give to the population of BM.
In line with the idea of authenticity, I believe the preparation, anticipation, budgeting, travel, setup, cleanup, etc aspects of BM are PART OF THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE and make me appreciate the crazy fun times even more because I really worked for them. In other words, was it really BM if you didn't get your hands dusty?? This is party why the tent people roll their eyes at the peeps in RVs. Sure, an RV is enjoyable, but it's the small-scale version of Sgames' setup: "Don't live like the dirty masses! Have your non-dusty cake and eat it too!" It reeks of entitlement, consumption of others, spending money AS experience, and reinforcing class disparity. One thing I really love about BM is that socio-economic classes are muted, blurred, or lost to the wind -- we all seem to be roughing it approximately equally and there's no harsh judgement structure or social norms you'd find in the Default World. But introducing more of these Sgames scenarios will create a VERY different tone to the event....
While the debate in this thread seems to center around the claims Sgames is making, things he's offering, questioning if he's a troll, and debating the details therein, (and I agree those are vital parts of this discussion), I think there are some subtle points being largely overlooked about WHY many of us find this practice/proposition upsetting. Only a few previous posters have touched on these emotional themes, with no substantive replies.
Sgames' practice seems to prick many of us emotionally, and I think we should examine and analyze WHY. In adding to what was said about Sgames' practice being parasitic, and that it violates most of the 10 principles, I believe the types of people Sgames is drawing into BM are harmful to our culture, and harmful to AUTHENTICITY itself in the BM context.
In short, the people most likely to be attracted to this offer won't be genuinely participating or contributing to the event; they will be passively CONSUMING the art and entertainment they expect the rest of us to provide. This role they will play in addition to the context in which they arrive to the event will foster a feeling of entitlement, which can lead to judgement of others at the event, expectations to 'be entertained,' and that BM is just a big crazy party. This prevents them from experiencing and understanding many of the core principles most burners agree are central to what BM is. Like we say, no spectators. And buying 1000's of 'gifts' for your clients to hand out is probably not a good idea-- no one likes pointless trinkets, and this doesn't encourage your clients to truly give from the heart or CREATE anything themselves with unique value. Same with the mutant vehicle - it's being created solely to fit in and provide a means of transportation for the clients - NOT as a work of art they came up with organically and selflessly want to give to the population of BM.
In line with the idea of authenticity, I believe the preparation, anticipation, budgeting, travel, setup, cleanup, etc aspects of BM are PART OF THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE and make me appreciate the crazy fun times even more because I really worked for them. In other words, was it really BM if you didn't get your hands dusty?? This is party why the tent people roll their eyes at the peeps in RVs. Sure, an RV is enjoyable, but it's the small-scale version of Sgames' setup: "Don't live like the dirty masses! Have your non-dusty cake and eat it too!" It reeks of entitlement, consumption of others, spending money AS experience, and reinforcing class disparity. One thing I really love about BM is that socio-economic classes are muted, blurred, or lost to the wind -- we all seem to be roughing it approximately equally and there's no harsh judgement structure or social norms you'd find in the Default World. But introducing more of these Sgames scenarios will create a VERY different tone to the event....
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thirt33n
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:13 pm
- Burning Since: 2002
- Camp Name: Playa Name "Crux"
- Location: north
..sure would like a nice rare fillet mignon.
Kevin,
You are helping yourself greatly by consulting this community and working with Eric.
Education is our only hope if there is hope at all.
The whole world is marching into mediocrity so why would we think Black Rock City would be exempt.
Just do your best to do it right. At least then YOU will understand how naive and inconsiderate to the principles you have already been.
Good Luck
Kevin,
You are helping yourself greatly by consulting this community and working with Eric.
Education is our only hope if there is hope at all.
The whole world is marching into mediocrity so why would we think Black Rock City would be exempt.
Just do your best to do it right. At least then YOU will understand how naive and inconsiderate to the principles you have already been.
Good Luck
blow.
You know, the other day one of my employees said to me, "How many Burners does it take to change a light bulb?" Not knowing this one, I said, "How many?"
Her reply was so apropos to this discussion, she said, "Three. One to change the light bulb, two to talk about how much better the last one was."
Change is a constant in life, you can have life stop changing for you when you are dead. I suppose your other option is that you can go all Ted Kaczynski and move in to a shack in the woods so you can more easily go crazy telling yourself that there is a way to freeze things the way you feel is Right.
Honestly, people, what do you want to do here? Ban people from spending more than you to go to Burning Man? What of radical inclusion? What but your own attitude about what you think people who do it this way -might- be like keeps you from welcoming these folks in to the community and helping them become good citizens? That'd be the same act, I might add, that other Burners - whether you acknowledge it or not, did to include you in their community when you were new and knew no better.
Consider giving up that you know the Right Way To Experience Burning Man and let people have the experience that they are going to have. If these people are not going to be a part of the community for reals, it's unlikely they will get hooked by the vibe and come back anyway. If they -are- hooked by the vibe and come back, it's likely that they'll return looking for a way to connect.
These people grew up to be who they were meant to be, as did you. Give them the space to be themselves and do their thing without filling the air with intentions that you made up for them to arrive with. People are generally better than you are giving them credit for if you are willing to do the right thing, take the first step, and get engaged with them. Is what we are really bitching about here that "our community is great and those outsiders are ruining it for everyone"? If so, we're not doing our job of bringing people in to the culture right and we've only got ourselves to blame.
-Carousel
Her reply was so apropos to this discussion, she said, "Three. One to change the light bulb, two to talk about how much better the last one was."
Change is a constant in life, you can have life stop changing for you when you are dead. I suppose your other option is that you can go all Ted Kaczynski and move in to a shack in the woods so you can more easily go crazy telling yourself that there is a way to freeze things the way you feel is Right.
Honestly, people, what do you want to do here? Ban people from spending more than you to go to Burning Man? What of radical inclusion? What but your own attitude about what you think people who do it this way -might- be like keeps you from welcoming these folks in to the community and helping them become good citizens? That'd be the same act, I might add, that other Burners - whether you acknowledge it or not, did to include you in their community when you were new and knew no better.
Consider giving up that you know the Right Way To Experience Burning Man and let people have the experience that they are going to have. If these people are not going to be a part of the community for reals, it's unlikely they will get hooked by the vibe and come back anyway. If they -are- hooked by the vibe and come back, it's likely that they'll return looking for a way to connect.
These people grew up to be who they were meant to be, as did you. Give them the space to be themselves and do their thing without filling the air with intentions that you made up for them to arrive with. People are generally better than you are giving them credit for if you are willing to do the right thing, take the first step, and get engaged with them. Is what we are really bitching about here that "our community is great and those outsiders are ruining it for everyone"? If so, we're not doing our job of bringing people in to the culture right and we've only got ourselves to blame.
-Carousel
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Stickygreen
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:17 pm
- Location: Vancouver
Man this type of shit has been going on for years, 2 years ago i camped with RS, then last year I had an random old RV and trailer on my theme camps land..? Confused I looked around for who owned these machines and why they were taking up the space that had been allotted to my group?
After a few day I discovered they belonged to "Flash" someold hippy guy that is Larrys buddy, and apparently is one of the old timers. Anyway I came to discover he had rented out these RVs to some rich kids who flew in from NY, as I figured they left a bunch trash, and came around looking for food. The usual sparkle pony routine. But this is the type of thing is pretty common, BM has become for many, a cash cow... Milk it for all it's worth. Lots of people make cash off of this event every year, even Larrys buddies. Actually every one of "larry's buddy's" makes cash off of this event.
Deal with it or don't.
After a few day I discovered they belonged to "Flash" someold hippy guy that is Larrys buddy, and apparently is one of the old timers. Anyway I came to discover he had rented out these RVs to some rich kids who flew in from NY, as I figured they left a bunch trash, and came around looking for food. The usual sparkle pony routine. But this is the type of thing is pretty common, BM has become for many, a cash cow... Milk it for all it's worth. Lots of people make cash off of this event every year, even Larrys buddies. Actually every one of "larry's buddy's" makes cash off of this event.
Deal with it or don't.
)'(
As distateful as I find this, I do find some comfort in that there may be a dialog with Eric and the potential for education. It does appear he's entering in to this without the knowledge that would make this successful. Ultimately, I think once Sacgames realized all that's involved he'll cancel the auction, failing that I'm not sure who would purchase this absent a verifiable track record (at least at the asking price), I knew I wouldn't even if I had that kind of scratch to blow.
I don't know if the claims of event planner are true but I do find it a tad odd that he has a fairly busy eBay history (dating back to 2002) starting out with inflatables and more recently switching over to safety equipment. I'm not saying the eBay activity and claims of event planning are mutually exclusive, just odd. That said, kudos for the 100% feedback rating and willingness to participate here. FWIW, not really relevant other than to appease my curiousity but he's pictured modeling the Full Body Safety Harness according to his feedback replies.
Nice post Salix, you ought to post more often.
I don't know if the claims of event planner are true but I do find it a tad odd that he has a fairly busy eBay history (dating back to 2002) starting out with inflatables and more recently switching over to safety equipment. I'm not saying the eBay activity and claims of event planning are mutually exclusive, just odd. That said, kudos for the 100% feedback rating and willingness to participate here. FWIW, not really relevant other than to appease my curiousity but he's pictured modeling the Full Body Safety Harness according to his feedback replies.
Nice post Salix, you ought to post more often.
"Enjoy every sandwich" - W. Zevon
When this kinda shit moves into BRC I will move out. I konw I won't be the only one. I don't go for the party or festival I go for the comunity and art as do many people. We wait for a year to escape to BRC and this guy wants to sell front row seats to our freak show. Were mad because its disrespectful. The event might become more main stream but why encourage it why sell it out. Justify it all you want "we will teach them" what a fucking joke. "we should accept them. Um no I don't I just won't by a ticket and enjoy our Oregon event. "Who are we to say how they want to spend their burn" its not what has people upset its the misguided concept of seeking customers to go to BM were upset with. "Its going to happen anway" so we might as well make money right. NO and NO and um NO!! weak ass attitude that's just giving up and giving in.
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
- Burning Since: 2001
- Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
- Location: Salem Or.
I have already compack that into one word.. TROLL!!!!!!Shambala wrote:I have a feeling that the person responding is NOT the same person offering the package on eBay. It is entertaining, but I don't think he's real.
If someone is smart enough to amass $95,000 in the bank, they are probably smart enough not to hand that money over to someone offer to loan you an RV for a week's vacation in the Black Rock Desert.
Just think of the high end world wide vacation you can get for the same money.
I will predict that this item goes unsold on eBay. If by some insane chance this does sell, I am getting into that business.
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Dustdevil
- Posts: 843
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:10 pm
- Burning Since: 1996
- Camp Name: Brain Freeze / Got Stickers
- Location: West Oakland
- Contact:
This vacation is not for "someone smart enough to amass $95K". It is for 10 people smart enough to amass $9.5K. Or it could be for one person with $95K and nine really good friends......Shambala wrote:If someone is smart enough to amass $95,000 in the bank, they are probably smart enough not to hand that money over to someone offer to loan you an RV for a week's vacation in the Black Rock Desert.
Just think of the high end world wide vacation you can get for the same money.
.
Last year we had three trailers "dropped off" in our camp in the middle of the night pre event. They were from one of the Indian businesses doing the same thing, on a much smaller scale. The companies had no idea of the layout of the City. It was interesting when the person who paid for the trailers showed up looking for them because he had no idea where they got towed away to. And neither did I.
Those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right.
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ygmir
- Posts: 30403
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
- Burning Since: 2007
- Camp Name: qqqq
- Location: nevada county
Dustdevil wrote:This vacation is not for "someone smart enough to amass $95K". It is for 10 people smart enough to amass $9.5K. Or it could be for one person with $95K and nine really good friends......Shambala wrote:If someone is smart enough to amass $95,000 in the bank, they are probably smart enough not to hand that money over to someone offer to loan you an RV for a week's vacation in the Black Rock Desert.
Just think of the high end world wide vacation you can get for the same money.
.
Last year we had three trailers "dropped off" in our camp in the middle of the night pre event. They were from one of the Indian businesses doing the same thing, on a much smaller scale. The companies had no idea of the layout of the City. It was interesting when the person who paid for the trailers showed up looking for them because he had no idea where they got towed away to. And neither did I.
hahaha, +1
YGMIR
Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
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Elderberry
- Moderator
- Posts: 14976
- Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
- Burning Since: 2007
- Camp Name: Camp Kelly
- Location: Palm Springs
- Contact:
LOL You have got to be kidding me! It's only a gift economy after you get there. For what my partner and I spend to go to BM, most could take a luxury vacation to just about anywhere, and I doubt we're the only ones.dadara wrote:What happened to the Gift-economy part????
The "Gift-economy" is EXPENSIVE. Oh, and we do all the work ourselves. I can see easily where it might be nice to pay someone to do all the prep work.
JK
Elderberry
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me
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Lassen Forge
- Posts: 5320
- Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:35 pm
- Location: Where it's always... Wednesday. Don't lose your head over it.
Re: burningman
Reading the past 3 pages this AM, something was tickling the back of my mind. I had to go back and check, but in playing catch-up, I thought I saw something, and I did find it, with buku references to the same type of enterprise.....
I am not condemning enterpreneurism at all - every one has a right to be an entepreneur. But the llc guards IT'S rights very jealously (try to sell a photo you took at llc and you get them on your but legally tout suite)... I can't begin to imagine how they would react to someone touting a for-profit enterprise using their property (name, images, permits from BLM, etc.) but unless you have an MOU drafted between your company and theirs, you MAY want to get your corporate lawyer to contact them to work something out. And do it sooner rather than later.
I'm not giving you legal advice, but I have seen lesser profit motives burned rather quite expensively for this - some even innocently - and this is so well published there's no way someone could claim "innocence".
I used to jokingly call it "steppping on Larry Harvey's feet with hob nailed boots, and expecting him not to react"...
The way you wrote this spells it out pretty succinctly - this is a profit-oriented business selling the burning man experience using their name, images, etc.sacramentogames wrote:... When I do my proposals I figure X many dollars for profit in the work I do and I also figure a percentage for unforeseen costs. I am thinking that all that is left from unforeseen costs should go to a fund to provide for future theme camps.
Any thoughts?
I am not condemning enterpreneurism at all - every one has a right to be an entepreneur. But the llc guards IT'S rights very jealously (try to sell a photo you took at llc and you get them on your but legally tout suite)... I can't begin to imagine how they would react to someone touting a for-profit enterprise using their property (name, images, permits from BLM, etc.) but unless you have an MOU drafted between your company and theirs, you MAY want to get your corporate lawyer to contact them to work something out. And do it sooner rather than later.
I'm not giving you legal advice, but I have seen lesser profit motives burned rather quite expensively for this - some even innocently - and this is so well published there's no way someone could claim "innocence".
I used to jokingly call it "steppping on Larry Harvey's feet with hob nailed boots, and expecting him not to react"...
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Ugly Dougly
- Posts: 17612
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
- Burning Since: 1996
- Location: เชียงใหม่
Burning Man is sort of an experiment in re-inventing society. There are no failed experiments, as long as data is collected.
In this case, we are learning ow society changes as its size is scaled up. Big cities tend to be less personal than small towns, and the ills of big cities, including exploitation of all types, is something if not inevitable but something to be prepared for.
So for me it's not overwhelmingly surprising that someone seeks to make a profit (or at least get a free ticket) from being a tour-guide operator to BRC.
In this case, we are learning ow society changes as its size is scaled up. Big cities tend to be less personal than small towns, and the ills of big cities, including exploitation of all types, is something if not inevitable but something to be prepared for.
So for me it's not overwhelmingly surprising that someone seeks to make a profit (or at least get a free ticket) from being a tour-guide operator to BRC.
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thirt33n
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:13 pm
- Burning Since: 2002
- Camp Name: Playa Name "Crux"
- Location: north
Carousel-carousel wrote: Honestly, people, what do you want to do here? Ban people from spending more than you to go to Burning Man? What of radical inclusion? What but your own attitude about what you think people who do it this way -might- be like keeps you from welcoming these folks in to the community and helping them become good citizens? That'd be the same act, I might add, that other Burners - whether you acknowledge it or not, did to include you in their community when you were new and knew no better.
Consider giving up that you know the Right Way To Experience Burning Man and let people have the experience that they are going to have. If these people are not going to be a part of the community for reals, it's unlikely they will get hooked by the vibe and come back anyway. If they -are- hooked by the vibe and come back, it's likely that they'll return looking for a way to connect.
These people grew up to be who they were meant to be, as did you. Give them the space to be themselves and do their thing without filling the air with intentions that you made up for them to arrive with. People are generally better than you are giving them credit for if you are willing to do the right thing, take the first step, and get engaged with them. Is what we are really bitching about here that "our community is great and those outsiders are ruining it for everyone"? If so, we're not doing our job of bringing people in to the culture right and we've only got ourselves to blame.
-Carousel
Apparently you have missed points in this conversation that make it quite obvious that this "organizer" was preparing to introduce several new comers to this "world" that is Burning Man without even knowing what "MOOP" meant. I would have to assume that if he did not "remember" what MOOP meant that sharing the basic principles of BM with these new citizens of Black Rock City was also not very high on his list...meaning, IMO that he just may be "the blind leading the blind". It is these sorts of situations that have been happening every year that have diluted the essence that i so strongly felt in 2002(my first trip).
The essence will always remain, somewhere.
I wonder how many mardi gras beads are to be included in this huge gift booty that he mentions?
The most valid argument in this thread, to me, lies here and can be qualified as the "right" way to do it. Being PREPARED and being RESPONSIBLE for making sure those who you become the conduit for are also PREPARED. Prepared for all aspects from water and food and MOOP to Legal and "darkwads" and snapping photos of chicks tits without asking...simple etiquette and nuances that go with the root beliefs of years ago.
I have nothing against any of these people. I have nothing against the concept of this 'luxury package'.
I have more against your principle scoffing attitude than any of the former.
..or maybe you weren't "scoffing" ..just "forgetting" that the principles are kind of important to this city.
I know this stuff has been going down for years. (i'm not bitching)I can't stop it...I am just glad Eric is "helping" because it may make ALL the difference in the world.
blow.
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
- Burning Since: 2001
- Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
- Location: Salem Or.
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Eric
- Moderator
- Posts: 9360
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
- Burning Since: 2003
- Camp Name: BRC Weekly
- Contact:
Um.jerroc wrote:When this kinda shit moves into BRC I will move out.
Careful what you wish for- it is there already, and has been for years. By your above quote you probably should have moved out around 2005 or '06.
Not being an ass, but it seems all these event crushing for-profit bastards have so utterly destroyed the very essence of what you come for that you didn't even know they've been there for years.
Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, there was a camp with this same set-up, filled with "Hollywood types", just a half a block from me last year. They didn't affect my experience at all, and if I hadn't been told what kind of camp it was I wouldn't have known. You've probably biked right by some as well, and had no idea.
The only difference with Sacgames is that he advertised his very publicly and was "found out" by the community.
I don't know anymore than anyone else if this is legit or if Sacgames is the eBay poster, but until I have reason to believe otherwise I'm treating it as legit. We shall see.
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist
Eric ShutterSlut
Former Ass't Editor & columnist, BRC Weekly
Eric ShutterSlut
Former Ass't Editor & columnist, BRC Weekly
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Ugly Dougly
- Posts: 17612
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
- Burning Since: 1996
- Location: เชียงใหม่
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Zed the Mailman
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:46 am
- Location: Reno, NV
I've got some thoughts on this. First maybe a little bio to establish maybe a shred of credibility.
First burn 2000. Been to every one since except for 2008. My girlfriend's dad died inconveniently a couple weeks before the burn so I supported her instead and traveled back east for the funeral. I gave my tickets to a friend who had never been. It took a couple of years to understand and really embrace what I perceive as the spirit of the event, but for the last 7 years or so I've put real effort into bringing something to the event. I've volunteered work on Mark Grieve's temple and the last David Best one, I've developed a couple characters I have fun with. Grease Fairy goes around oiling people's bike chains on Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun when they start really grinding. Monorail Survey Crew just surveys through people's camps and around town having fun and interacting with others. The Predictive Postal Service has a couple hundred letters pre-made and addressed to Mr. Silver Pants and Ms Striped socks and such. I give out 400 un-stamped postcards and 100 stamped ones.
While I'm well aware that many people put more effort, time and money into the participation aspect of the event, 95% do not. I'm not saying any of this to judge the participation of others, only to establish who I am given my lack of participation here on ePlaya. I'm not Burnier-than-thou, I fucking hate that attitude, I'm only trying to claim a shred of credibility here.
Anyways, here goes.
I think there's room for something like this if done well and in the spirit of Burning Man. I'm not convinced that Kevin is there yet but I do believe he's trying and is receptive. I do think he's working from a very disadvantaged position of not really understanding Burning Man yet beyond the simplified "Desert Art Festival" perception. He appears to be catching on but part of me wonders if the "code" is something that can be taught this way or has to be gained by experience. I don't know. I really hope Eric's offer is sincere and that Kevin takes him up on it.
I have no problem with people making money by providing valuable services but I have a special place in my heart for Burning Man and like to think the bar should be a little bit higher when actually making money at the event.
Outside of the event all sorts of people make money providing all sorts of services according to our default world conventions and that's fine. Ice, booze, food, camping supplies, propane...compete in the free market and to the winner go the spoils.
Inside the event I have a different view. Money making should be judged by how the service serves the collective rather than the individual. The porta-pottie guys aren't doing it for the love of art. For the service they provide and the conditions they do it under - I hope they are killing it. Same goes for the crane operators, BLM, the ice manufacturer, the truckers who haul everything out there and back. These people all do more than would be reasonably be asked of a person to gift and the services they provide make the experience better for everyone.
From a strictly business perspective, I'm sure there's a market for providing a luxury, voyeuristic, white-glove service for wealthy tourists. But the idea of actively attracting those people to MY Burning Man disgusts me. I think that the spirit of decomodification encourages us to abandon this "bottom-line" mindset to the degree that we can. The true believers want to make this event better and if done poorly Kevin's program is a very real threat to our community. I hope that Kevin can understand that the harsh words he's received are a response to this threat and while he'll never please everyone, he can do a lot to mitigate it.
In my opinion, to be done in my perception of the spirit of Burning Man, a service like this first needs to almost require a level of interaction and participation of the individuals. Something that requires them to be BM community members, rather than just tourists. Second I think that his program should provide some sort of community benefit in proportion to the profit he'd like to make. Art, gift, theme camp or some other benefit to the community.
To me this means providing a service and a pricing structure that is not attractive to people who will likely be voyeurs. No A/C, no fancy wine, no pre-made costumes, no luxury accommodations. Also, make it clear that they'll be participating. Something like Foot Wash Camp. You'll be washing people's feet for 1hr a day in our camp. I don't think it needs to be that extreme, but something along those lines. Once you take away the RV and make everyone shit in the same porta-pottie and make a clear participation requirement, I think you'll be rid of the rich tourists.
I also think that people who pay for convenience have some obligation to our society to help make it better. I like to think of them as patrons of the arts. If they've passed the participation/anti-luxury test then I think they are clearly motivated and want to be involved. Let's take some of that money and use it for making our society better. Fund playa art, a theme camp or something for the benefit of all rather than self. if you are running a for-profit camp that caterers to these folks I think you have a moral obligation to our society to use some of their money in this way. I'm immediately leery of Kevin's idea to use hie "extra" money for this, I know all to well how much extra money there is in these types of ventures. I think he needs to budget a clear 5-10% of gross line item as a hard cost and make his numbers work with that. That community benefit line item should be just as hard a cost as his RV rental or any other cost.
I have no problem with division of labor with regards to radical self-reliance. Very few people handle every aspect of their stay at an individual level. Food, camp, gray water, trash, etc. are almost always combined for an efficiency of scale. As long as the camp itself is self-reliant and cleans up after itself, I have no problem letting them decide who does what.
First burn 2000. Been to every one since except for 2008. My girlfriend's dad died inconveniently a couple weeks before the burn so I supported her instead and traveled back east for the funeral. I gave my tickets to a friend who had never been. It took a couple of years to understand and really embrace what I perceive as the spirit of the event, but for the last 7 years or so I've put real effort into bringing something to the event. I've volunteered work on Mark Grieve's temple and the last David Best one, I've developed a couple characters I have fun with. Grease Fairy goes around oiling people's bike chains on Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun when they start really grinding. Monorail Survey Crew just surveys through people's camps and around town having fun and interacting with others. The Predictive Postal Service has a couple hundred letters pre-made and addressed to Mr. Silver Pants and Ms Striped socks and such. I give out 400 un-stamped postcards and 100 stamped ones.
While I'm well aware that many people put more effort, time and money into the participation aspect of the event, 95% do not. I'm not saying any of this to judge the participation of others, only to establish who I am given my lack of participation here on ePlaya. I'm not Burnier-than-thou, I fucking hate that attitude, I'm only trying to claim a shred of credibility here.
Anyways, here goes.
I think there's room for something like this if done well and in the spirit of Burning Man. I'm not convinced that Kevin is there yet but I do believe he's trying and is receptive. I do think he's working from a very disadvantaged position of not really understanding Burning Man yet beyond the simplified "Desert Art Festival" perception. He appears to be catching on but part of me wonders if the "code" is something that can be taught this way or has to be gained by experience. I don't know. I really hope Eric's offer is sincere and that Kevin takes him up on it.
I have no problem with people making money by providing valuable services but I have a special place in my heart for Burning Man and like to think the bar should be a little bit higher when actually making money at the event.
Outside of the event all sorts of people make money providing all sorts of services according to our default world conventions and that's fine. Ice, booze, food, camping supplies, propane...compete in the free market and to the winner go the spoils.
Inside the event I have a different view. Money making should be judged by how the service serves the collective rather than the individual. The porta-pottie guys aren't doing it for the love of art. For the service they provide and the conditions they do it under - I hope they are killing it. Same goes for the crane operators, BLM, the ice manufacturer, the truckers who haul everything out there and back. These people all do more than would be reasonably be asked of a person to gift and the services they provide make the experience better for everyone.
From a strictly business perspective, I'm sure there's a market for providing a luxury, voyeuristic, white-glove service for wealthy tourists. But the idea of actively attracting those people to MY Burning Man disgusts me. I think that the spirit of decomodification encourages us to abandon this "bottom-line" mindset to the degree that we can. The true believers want to make this event better and if done poorly Kevin's program is a very real threat to our community. I hope that Kevin can understand that the harsh words he's received are a response to this threat and while he'll never please everyone, he can do a lot to mitigate it.
In my opinion, to be done in my perception of the spirit of Burning Man, a service like this first needs to almost require a level of interaction and participation of the individuals. Something that requires them to be BM community members, rather than just tourists. Second I think that his program should provide some sort of community benefit in proportion to the profit he'd like to make. Art, gift, theme camp or some other benefit to the community.
To me this means providing a service and a pricing structure that is not attractive to people who will likely be voyeurs. No A/C, no fancy wine, no pre-made costumes, no luxury accommodations. Also, make it clear that they'll be participating. Something like Foot Wash Camp. You'll be washing people's feet for 1hr a day in our camp. I don't think it needs to be that extreme, but something along those lines. Once you take away the RV and make everyone shit in the same porta-pottie and make a clear participation requirement, I think you'll be rid of the rich tourists.
I also think that people who pay for convenience have some obligation to our society to help make it better. I like to think of them as patrons of the arts. If they've passed the participation/anti-luxury test then I think they are clearly motivated and want to be involved. Let's take some of that money and use it for making our society better. Fund playa art, a theme camp or something for the benefit of all rather than self. if you are running a for-profit camp that caterers to these folks I think you have a moral obligation to our society to use some of their money in this way. I'm immediately leery of Kevin's idea to use hie "extra" money for this, I know all to well how much extra money there is in these types of ventures. I think he needs to budget a clear 5-10% of gross line item as a hard cost and make his numbers work with that. That community benefit line item should be just as hard a cost as his RV rental or any other cost.
I have no problem with division of labor with regards to radical self-reliance. Very few people handle every aspect of their stay at an individual level. Food, camp, gray water, trash, etc. are almost always combined for an efficiency of scale. As long as the camp itself is self-reliant and cleans up after itself, I have no problem letting them decide who does what.
2012-2014 Bike Course theme camp
2011 Honorarium Project "Bike Course"
Monorail Survey Crew
Grease Fairy
Predictive Postal Service
2011 Honorarium Project "Bike Course"
Monorail Survey Crew
Grease Fairy
Predictive Postal Service
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sacramentogames
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:17 am
bruningman
My goal coming in here is to get all of your feedback and make the best of the event. I am not going away and I should have three clients signed by next week. To my suprise the clients I am working with are past Burners who do not want to deal with the setup and tear down. Did they spend $95,000?...no they did not. I am supplying the rv, fuel, water, ice chests, romoval of trash and the service on pumping the tanks daily. I will be happy to set any camp up for previous burners and remove trash from their site so they do not have to take it home.
As for an executive client coming in and me providing everything on Ebay, I will follow through. Although I get negative response, I have many asking for a package put together for their group. For the record, I will NOT bring out a bunch of frat boys to get drunk and see how many people they can screw. Not my clientell. When my client does sign, I will bring Eric on as a guide and an advisor. I will meet with Eric in the next few weeks to finish budgets and plan the best possible way to bring in newbees, show them how to help the neighbors build their camps and show them the best BM experience possible. (Eric if you would like to meet sooner, I will be happy to show you my books. I know you have a solid reputation on here and I think having you onboard would be a huge asset in putting this together)
The price I have on Ebay is fair. There is alot of planning going into this and to put everything together is not cheap. There are major expenses to bring in a crew of people to make this happen. I have listened to many analize the costs and its funny to see how far off people actually are. Putting this together is more costly than you think. I coordinate many large events and there are a lot of hidden costs that you would not be aware of.
I know most of you HATE my idea but this is far from something new. The other companies doing what I am doing who drops the frat boys next to your camp that leave the MOOP for you to clean up. We will not allow that from our groups. My clients desire to come to BM and learn and embrace the culture. The big difference is I will screen my client and not just dump him off in the middle of everyone and say, "Enjoy, I'll see you on Monday"". My goal is to have my client embrace the culture.
I have had alot of comments on the MV. I will leave it at this, I have found a MV that has been accepted in previous years. I will be changing it to make it different with my own spin on it. That is part of the cost in the Ebay package. MVs are not cheap. As for the loaning it other burners, we have in our budget a driver that will drive all burners around. This is part of our giving back to the community. Paying a driver to drive a MV for all Burners to enjoy is no different that paying the stagehands at the stages.
Bounce530- I turn many wrenches. I get my hands dirty at work (well, sometimes. I will be personally be working on the MV myself along with one of my employees). It also takes a good leader to deligate in a project of this size.
As for the "trinkets from china" that you say we will be bringing. Do you really think I would bring china garbage with a high end client? Whatever my client and I decide to bring out will be well thought out and will be something burners can used.
As for comments of stepping on Larrys toes (I had someone call me on this via phone), I think Larry would embrace the idea of bringing in newbees with my intent of embracing culture. In fact I wecome his office to contact me. I will gladly drive out to meet with them. I would love to go out to BM early and donate my time and be a bigger part of the BM experience. I welcome the advise from his office or any suggestions they may have.
thirt33n- I owned up to the mistake of MOOP. I don't think this whole discussion is about, "Look at the fat guy, he forgot what the term MOOP is, LETS GET HIM!". I own up to my mistakes, learn from it, and try not to do it again. (I must be glutten for punishment to keep touching on this)
With all that said, I have read every single post and I have been respectful to each and every Burner. I have taken everything that has been dished out and I get the fact that any response I give right or wrong gives you another shell to put in your canon. If you wish to be disrespectful and throw more punches with name calling, you will not get your point accross and I will just stop coming in here. Name calling at me is no different than the guy in True Religion jeans, sitting on his lawnchair, sipping suds and gawking at all the weirdos passing by. I would prefer to stay here and try to learn more on how I can be a better contributor to Burningman and make this pleasant experience for everyone.
Lastly, I would like to thank everyone who takes the time out of their day to post your thoughts. With your comments I will make changes to better contribute to the burningman experience.
As for an executive client coming in and me providing everything on Ebay, I will follow through. Although I get negative response, I have many asking for a package put together for their group. For the record, I will NOT bring out a bunch of frat boys to get drunk and see how many people they can screw. Not my clientell. When my client does sign, I will bring Eric on as a guide and an advisor. I will meet with Eric in the next few weeks to finish budgets and plan the best possible way to bring in newbees, show them how to help the neighbors build their camps and show them the best BM experience possible. (Eric if you would like to meet sooner, I will be happy to show you my books. I know you have a solid reputation on here and I think having you onboard would be a huge asset in putting this together)
The price I have on Ebay is fair. There is alot of planning going into this and to put everything together is not cheap. There are major expenses to bring in a crew of people to make this happen. I have listened to many analize the costs and its funny to see how far off people actually are. Putting this together is more costly than you think. I coordinate many large events and there are a lot of hidden costs that you would not be aware of.
I know most of you HATE my idea but this is far from something new. The other companies doing what I am doing who drops the frat boys next to your camp that leave the MOOP for you to clean up. We will not allow that from our groups. My clients desire to come to BM and learn and embrace the culture. The big difference is I will screen my client and not just dump him off in the middle of everyone and say, "Enjoy, I'll see you on Monday"". My goal is to have my client embrace the culture.
I have had alot of comments on the MV. I will leave it at this, I have found a MV that has been accepted in previous years. I will be changing it to make it different with my own spin on it. That is part of the cost in the Ebay package. MVs are not cheap. As for the loaning it other burners, we have in our budget a driver that will drive all burners around. This is part of our giving back to the community. Paying a driver to drive a MV for all Burners to enjoy is no different that paying the stagehands at the stages.
Bounce530- I turn many wrenches. I get my hands dirty at work (well, sometimes. I will be personally be working on the MV myself along with one of my employees). It also takes a good leader to deligate in a project of this size.
As for the "trinkets from china" that you say we will be bringing. Do you really think I would bring china garbage with a high end client? Whatever my client and I decide to bring out will be well thought out and will be something burners can used.
As for comments of stepping on Larrys toes (I had someone call me on this via phone), I think Larry would embrace the idea of bringing in newbees with my intent of embracing culture. In fact I wecome his office to contact me. I will gladly drive out to meet with them. I would love to go out to BM early and donate my time and be a bigger part of the BM experience. I welcome the advise from his office or any suggestions they may have.
thirt33n- I owned up to the mistake of MOOP. I don't think this whole discussion is about, "Look at the fat guy, he forgot what the term MOOP is, LETS GET HIM!". I own up to my mistakes, learn from it, and try not to do it again. (I must be glutten for punishment to keep touching on this)
With all that said, I have read every single post and I have been respectful to each and every Burner. I have taken everything that has been dished out and I get the fact that any response I give right or wrong gives you another shell to put in your canon. If you wish to be disrespectful and throw more punches with name calling, you will not get your point accross and I will just stop coming in here. Name calling at me is no different than the guy in True Religion jeans, sitting on his lawnchair, sipping suds and gawking at all the weirdos passing by. I would prefer to stay here and try to learn more on how I can be a better contributor to Burningman and make this pleasant experience for everyone.
Lastly, I would like to thank everyone who takes the time out of their day to post your thoughts. With your comments I will make changes to better contribute to the burningman experience.
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thirt33n
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:13 pm
- Burning Since: 2002
- Camp Name: Playa Name "Crux"
- Location: north
Kevin-
I have not been negative to your idea and have been supportive of your use of Eric.
That being said, it is still strange that you don't understand symbolically what it means when someone says they've been to Burning Man but they don't know what MOOP is.
It is like saying you've been to New York City but aren't familiar with the Empire State Building. It means, simply, that you've either been hit on the head with a bowling pin, are almost totally oblivious...or more likely that you are lying.
It seems that you think MOOP is one little word in a huge book about Burning Man and that it's easy to "miss" it's definition.
It's just strange, buddy.
I hope you understand what I mean. You call it a "flub". ..it's an indicator of dishonesty in MY eyes.
still, good luck. I hope for the best.
I have not been negative to your idea and have been supportive of your use of Eric.
That being said, it is still strange that you don't understand symbolically what it means when someone says they've been to Burning Man but they don't know what MOOP is.
It is like saying you've been to New York City but aren't familiar with the Empire State Building. It means, simply, that you've either been hit on the head with a bowling pin, are almost totally oblivious...or more likely that you are lying.
It seems that you think MOOP is one little word in a huge book about Burning Man and that it's easy to "miss" it's definition.
It's just strange, buddy.
I hope you understand what I mean. You call it a "flub". ..it's an indicator of dishonesty in MY eyes.
still, good luck. I hope for the best.
blow.
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Snowah Zark
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:47 pm
- Location: the great white north
should we shun the wealthy?
no.
instead let us hope that a burning man experience will change these CEO's and "Captains of Industry" into thinking in a new way. Maybe a Better Way.
Maybe money isn't the issue, but what they do with it.
give them a chance is all i am saying, pass judgement after the burn, and after you have talked to these people in person.
yeah, they could be jerks, or, they could actually "get it" and give back to the playa in ways which we have no way of predicting.
this is not a closed sand-box, even to those who may inhabit the guarded communities and country clubs in defaultia, this is not there.
you're telling them they are doing it wrong....perhaps they should find out themselves, and see what happens.
tabla rasa.
dont tell them suck already, until they have sucked.
no.
instead let us hope that a burning man experience will change these CEO's and "Captains of Industry" into thinking in a new way. Maybe a Better Way.
Maybe money isn't the issue, but what they do with it.
give them a chance is all i am saying, pass judgement after the burn, and after you have talked to these people in person.
yeah, they could be jerks, or, they could actually "get it" and give back to the playa in ways which we have no way of predicting.
this is not a closed sand-box, even to those who may inhabit the guarded communities and country clubs in defaultia, this is not there.
you're telling them they are doing it wrong....perhaps they should find out themselves, and see what happens.
tabla rasa.
dont tell them suck already, until they have sucked.
Mi casa y su casa.
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curiousgnate
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:46 am
- Location: Denver
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Lord Of Ruin
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:22 pm
- Burning Since: 2017
It's interesting that there's a guy over on the tips and tricks forum that is essentially doing this same project: he is bringing his entire company on the company's dime. He's getting planning advice for truck rental, where to buy stuff, etc.Dustdevil wrote:This vacation is not for "someone smart enough to amass $95K". It is for 10 people smart enough to amass $9.5K. Or it could be for one person with $95K and nine really good friends......Shambala wrote:If someone is smart enough to amass $95,000 in the bank, they are probably smart enough not to hand that money over to someone offer to loan you an RV for a week's vacation in the Black Rock Desert.
Just think of the high end world wide vacation you can get for the same money.
.
Last year we had three trailers "dropped off" in our camp in the middle of the night pre event. They were from one of the Indian businesses doing the same thing, on a much smaller scale. The companies had no idea of the layout of the City. It was interesting when the person who paid for the trailers showed up looking for them because he had no idea where they got towed away to. And neither did I.
It's funny that that post hasn't generated one iota of the "if you just come with no effort, you'll be harming our thing" sentiment.
Makes me think the objection to this thread is largely envy at its roots.
Another thing for thought: How do you people think the big soundcamps get shit done? How do you think they get name performers to come out? They too throw money at the problem. Not all of their costs are covered by fund raisers and they contribute plenty (well, I guess that depends on your perspective) to the community.
Whose to say that if this project goes that one of the richies won't feel so moved they decide to fund an art project or theme camp the following year?
LoR
The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion - W. Blake (attribution corrected)