Center Camp: Time for a change?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:53 pm

Based on the volume in the "Center Camp Experiences" thread, a poll:

jaywalker · Post by **jaywalker** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:11 pm

what about a choice to not even build it?

Just sayin, ya got's to have options.

Sort of like our California recall, cep't I think 136 is a little much

girlie · Post by **girlie** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:29 pm

Does anyone have any stats on the cafe we could include in here for informational purposes?

Such as:

-- how much money does the cafe itself cost to run?

-- how much money does the cafe structure cost to build?

-- what percentage of ticket cost goes towards running the cafe?

-- what percentage of ticket cost goes towards building the cafe structure?

-- how much money does the cafe make each year?

-- how many discounted and comp tickets are given out to cafe workers each year?

-- what is the "official word" on why coffee is for sale at burning man?

tbone · Post by **tbone** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:33 pm

girlie wrote:Does anyone have any stats on the cafe we could include in here for informational purposes?

Such as:

-- how much money does the cafe itself cost to run?
<snip>

Whoa. Hold on there young lady.

This BBS is strictly reserved for emotion ranting. Enough of this logical stuff.

Please rant. Call people Nazis. Complain about spelling.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:39 pm

girlie, you rock.

That information is available in its most obfuscated state in the Afterburn Report from 2002. But they have combined so many items it's hard to tell how much was spent.

And I suspect that even if there is someone in the org who has ready access to that info, they're not going to disclose it to us yahoos. But it's worth a try. The only contact I can find on the web site is [email protected].

girlie · Post by **girlie** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:47 pm

>>[email protected]

Thanks. I wrote that address with the questions. If i don't hear from them within a couple days i'll go higher for the info and will post the responses here.

fancyclancy · Post by **fancyclancy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:34 pm

I heard (perhaps this post should be in the Rumors & Lies section) that all proceeds from the cafe in center camp go to the high school in Gerlach. And the money from ice sales goes to... some other local Gerlach organization.
BTW, did anyone else think Center camp was slightly smaller this year? Did anyone think that overnight stays in center camp are being discouraged?
couldn't find a couch,
fc

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:49 pm

I'm one of the two who voted to expand it. I had a great experience in there. And so did Dragontear. I like the energy in Center Camp and would love to see it expand.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:28 pm

from the other thread . . .

jay brought up a great point: if there was no coffee at center camp then it would encourage more cross-camp interaction.

If coffee vending doesn't work at a profit (which no one has been able to confirm or deny) - then why have it?

I often make extra food for my neighbors - since its as easy to cook for 5 as it is for 15 - so why wouldn't I make a big pot of coffee & wander around to my neighbors. - As it was I made a few extra cups for neighbors.

Its also funny that the place that serves coffee is the place that has been stripped of places to pee. No porta potties near center camp. What up with that?

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:32 pm

Its also funny that the place that serves coffee is the place that has been stripped of places to pee. No porta potties near center camp. What up with that?

Yeah, tell me about it...where were the closest PP to Center Camp? Dogma and Sublime. Where was I camped? Dogma and Sublime. Oooh yeah, if the heat doesn't wake you up in the morning, the fragrance certainly will. there were so many people using that group of portajohns that people in our camp would go a block over and down and use the next set.

Ranger Mickey · Post by **Ranger Mickey** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:40 pm

From the AFTERBURN REPORT 2001:

"In 2001 Burning Man gave $41,000 in charitable donations to the town of Gerlach, our neighbor in the Black Rock Desert... This money is derived from ice sales. It was contributed to Gerlach Senior Citizens Center, Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department, Gerlach High School, the Gerlach Water Tower Restoration Fund, the Jeremy Williams Scholarship Fund and the Nevada Humane Society."

I couldn't find any numbers for the cafe, in either 2001 or 2002, but I believe the same model applies.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:44 pm

> I couldn't find any numbers for the cafe, in either 2001 or 2002, but I
> believe the same model applies.

In the financial report, they lump together cafe and ice sales:

Cost of Goods for the Ice and Café sales (not including buildings
and staff): $108,000
Donations (from ice sales revenue): $33,500
[Ed: 2002 numbers]

This does not indicate to me that any cafe sales went to donations,
otherwise why not say it?

No statement whatsoever of total revenues from either. The Afterburn
Report is very pretty, but not very financially enlightening. But hey, it's a
private org. They can choose to reveal whatever they want.

Tawnee Lynne · Post by **Tawnee Lynne** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:54 pm

by looking at the number it seems that the majority of the votes are split. I am glad you made the poll.
Thanks...
Tawnee Lynne

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:17 pm

found this on the bottom of page 12 of these posts...... I think centercamp is a vortex of some sort and ought to receive historical landmark status

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:53 pm

I've vascillated back and forth on this issue in my own mind. It is nice to have a general gathering place. I've enjoyed a variety of entertainment there, though it really has been some time since I've visited.

While it's nice to carry your own beverage, it will only stay hot or cold for so long. Having camps set up to gift beverages at Center Camp would be tricky as I don't see how they could keep up with the demand and then there's the Health Dept. issue. I suspect the health issue is the main reason for setting up the refreshments through sales.

Also donating money to the local schools does a lot to create good will when we want our permits renewed.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:01 am

After much thrashing around (on another thread) it was basically discovered that the coffee sales profits went to the cafe and possibly if any extra the LLC.
Ivy's right about the JoTS--and that could be a potential health issue.
And she's right about the MOOP.
Whatever the behavior of some of the people who work there, I'm glad that our Technopatria is given the opportunity to get a discounted ticket for working there, and when you consider the year-round effort she gives to this board it would be down right cruel if she had to forgo the event. KellY has earned my respect as well.
It was on the cafe threads that Ivy and Chai Guy first gained my attention, and I love the passion and the integrity with which they argued their positions. They are so right.
My Emergency Services Department medic fiance will not accept any food or drink from participants he does not know, because of the risk of dosing. Dosing does happen and our BRC "authorities" seem to attract more than their share of it. The plane crashes and Kathy Lampman's death streached the ESD. I for one, am grateful that we didn't streach it further by having more people out of commission due. To be sure they could drink Commisery Airpot Drip. But maybe it's good for them to mingle with the residents.
The cafe DOESN'T function as the good nieghborhood cafes in the default world that I've hung at do. This is in part because it's just as ephemeral as the city itself and not really and oasis.
I don't remember the coffee as being all that good.
It's all moot, because it's one of Larry's pets.
I reluctently allow the cafe to exist. Commerce should not be expanded and the cafe should remain a bone of contention and never just accepted.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:50 pm

The fact that the proceeds go to charity is the cafe's only saving grace. I like the concept of a central meeting space, and the atmosphere that is created by the people that hang out there. Other than that, I say brew your own coffee and dont expect someone to brew it for you.

It *IS* possible to live out there without ice or coffee. Just not as much fun.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:27 pm

The fact that the proceeds go to charity is the cafe's only saving grace.

but they don't. The ice sales proceeds go to charity.

feel free to skewer me if I'm wrong.

chickenfish · Post by **chickenfish** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:47 pm

I've always made my own coffee out there, thats what a french press is for. It tastes better and you don't create a whole lot of moop. Last year my girlfirend created an altar space in the cafe and we were discouraged to find out that some freeloaders had decided to make that their camp for the week, and were badvibing other folks who wanted to appreciate the space. I personally love the idea of meeting your neighbors to share a cup o joe. I did make a button with the button lady in the cafe last year, and that was a lot of fun and a nice souveneir(sp?) of the trip. I don't like the fact that there is vending there, it seems to oppose the idea of self sustainability out there. The structure itself also seems to foster a bit of this, as we witnessed witht the squatters in the altar space.

Silver 2 · Post by **Silver 2** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:38 pm

OK, I voted to keep it the way it is. Reason: It is a good way for newbies to get into the swing of things. I have known more than several people who were initially too shy to wander into theme camps or chill domes but who could go to the cafe, buy a cuppa and thereby feel that they had a right to be there. They talk to people, get invtes to camps and generally move on.

I personally loved the place late Sunday, the vibe was very bittersweet

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:04 pm

I voted against the vending. However, since polls are notoriously black-and-white, I voted that way conditionally...

I agree with the ORG that ice represents a health issue and it's also a good thing to have around (and to contribute the proceeds of). As for the coffee? Schiess, you mean you didn't bring your own?! Slacker!

We don't need a coffee concession in Center Camp.

I do like the Café on its own merits, as a gathering space/crash space/semi-intimate performance venue. As an architectural structure, you're working too hard to find better in the City. It's brilliant.

How about losing the coffee shop part and building another stage or conversation pit in its place?

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:39 am

In the interest of full disclosure (at least of the info I have):

- coffee sales go to support the building and maintenance of the cafe, and any profit goes back into the BRC general fund, so it could be used for anything from DPW to legal fees.

- profits from ice sales go to various Gerlach community schools and services, including the medical clinic that treats a goodly number of our peeps every year.

- the numbers from the cafe and the ice are lumped together because they are under the same dept, Business Services

- the portapotties are only 1 block away. Hardly the longest walk on the playa.

- I get my ticket gifted through the technology dept, not the cafe, as I volunteer on the tech side for between 5-20 hrs a week for about 45 weeks out of the year.

- I am accepting a small stipend from the cafe this year for leading the cafe cleanup crew.

And now for opinions:

I love the cafe. It is entirely self-sustaining, its profits relieve a wee bit of the overall costs of running Burning Man and help to keep ticket prices from going higher than they are, is a great meeting place for many people, it showcases all kinds of art, is a safe venue for aerialists, and has a great crew.

I don't have the numbers Precip asks for, but also see no reason why BM should share them. We all are social, not actuarial, stockholders and even a public company would not share its budget in such detail. (or would they? I don't buy stocks so I guess I don't really know).

That said, I fully understand others' objections to it. I personally find that since there is no snowball effect - it has not and will not spur additional vending - I am cool with its existence. The whole point of the no-commerce rule is to create social commerce among the peeps. I don't find that this one and only exception in any way diminishes that.

And we get a lot more people who come in to enjoy the space than actually buy anything. Large-scale community spaces like it create different, sometimes admittedly less intimate interactions. Which I think is cool. In my experience, there is no greater yahoo-to-participant ratio there. But YMMV.

Another thing that I like about it but I realize I've never discussed is that it is possible there, like in every other cafe, to choose to be alone. I have had a devil of a time trying to get some alone space on the playa outside my own structure. You try to go out to the trash fence and everyone stops to see that you are ok. Nice, but it defeats the purpose. Sometimes you don't want to talk, and you can choose to interact with folks in the cafe, or not. You can't go traipsing into someone's themecamp and not engage - folks think you are rude and want you to leave. I like the options that the cafe provides.

But that's just me.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:49 am

oh and I agree that in a perfect world, french press is truly the best way to make coffee.

Ironically, I don't drink coffee anymore. The caffeine wigs me out. I actually have a brief, contraindicatory theory about caffeine addiction, obesity, television culture, the over-inflated American work ethic, heart disease, and social isolationism - each one creates an unhealthy inertia that helps drive the inertia of the others.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:43 am

technopatra wrote:oh and I agree that in a perfect world, french press is truly the best way to make coffee.

Ironically, I don't drink coffee anymore. The caffeine wigs me out. I actually have a brief, contraindicatory theory about caffeine addiction, obesity, television culture, the over-inflated American work ethic, heart disease, and social isolationism - each one creates an unhealthy inertia that helps drive the inertia of the others.

well said...

i have always enjoyed the center camp coffee and atmoshpere. My hometown had a "town square" very similar in design and intent.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:54 am

I don't think an audit of the cafe finances is something BM attendees should or want to engage in. To answer techno's question, the financial breakdown provided to the public is quite a bit more detailed than the financial reports made available to stockholders of public companies. There is an element of trust in micromanaging this event, and considering the relatively low admission cost, I don't see any reason to question the management's performance. Unfortunately, BM is ballooning at such a rate that the logistics and finances keep getting more complex, and there are more people asking questions. I only hope that the event doesn't collapse due to its own gravity. It seems to me that the vending at center camp offers a service that would cause a bigger uproar were it not provided.

As for its size, I've never attended, so I can't cast a vote on a subject without personal experience. I only hope I can attend before BM is merely a caricature of its original self.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:52 am

technopatra wrote: I actually have a brief, contraindicatory theory about caffeine addiction, obesity, television culture, the over-inflated American work ethic, heart disease, and social isolationism - each one creates an unhealthy inertia that helps drive the inertia of the others.

If we treat this as a serious hypothesis (and I think we should, or at least the beginnings of one) it is important to note that coffee did a lot to fuel the European, especially the English drive towards commerce. PRevious to the availability of coffee and tea everyone drank small beer (now known as light beer) because, you didn't want to drink the water. The switch to coffee made the people slightly hyper rather than slightly drunk and the culture changed towards one of achievement. I don't know if people are happier as a result. If you have any doubts as to the importance of coffee in today's economy, spend some observational time in a downtown from 7-9 am and see the office drones consume it. The early cafes were also a place to discuss ideas (this is the Enlightenment Era, more or less) and other revolutions--social and political. To this day, coffee remains one of the worlds most important commodities. (I belive 2nd to oil.) And the people who actually work in the fields (do bushes grow in fields?) are still living in poverty (for the most part), despite their role in keeping this world rolling for the rest of us. To me the link between coffee and the maintence of the work ethic is very apperent.

(Cites? Look this is information that I've run into repeatedly, and if you're really interested you could google it yourself.)

And Technopatria--I'm glad that you've been gifted your ticket for your work on this board. You've been doing a difficult job and as far as I'm concerned you've earned it.

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:08 pm

Your on a roll there, Crypto. Just to stroke the idea along a little...
Lloyd's of London anyone? Lloyd's was a quiet little coffee shop 'til those underwriters took over...

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:13 am

What I like about the vending in Center Camp is the all-business vibe you get from the staff when you get to the head of the line. It's a nice antidote to that freaky-headed lethargy back in your own camp -- you know, when you're in some kind of endless discussion about how to set up that art project or whatever. You walk down to CC and get a little of that crisp 'what'll ya have' from a saucy coffee server and think, 'whoa.

It reminds me of those days when you and you teenage friends are smoking joints in the bushes and come down with a serious case of the munchies. The nearest place to get something to eat is that deli with blazing overhead fluorescent lighting, but you're really hungry. So you go in anyway and hope the deli guy doesn't notice how stoned you are. You buy your snacks and stumble back into the night, just buzzing from the left-brain, right-brain of it all.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:52 pm

daily coffe drinking is wacky to me.

I prefer my indulgences to be recreational, not habitual.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:03 pm

The heart of all good cities is a good friendly town center, a focal point. Center Camp isn't looking to be perfect in my mind just providing a focal point out of the sun.

And is Technopatria dead sexy or what, who wouldnt want to see her over a cup of coffee?! Jump into muh belly! Technopatria, feel free to slap my face at the Black Rock Gazette for that comment, you know I like it anyway.

-Goth

Center Camp: Time for a change?

What do you think about Center Camp?

Center Camp: Time for a change?

cafe squatters

blurp