gross ebay post

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:55 pm

Putting it in such grand terms makes me want to explioit an entire culture for my benefit too!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:16 pm

gyre wrote:Putting it in such grand terms makes me want to explioit an entire culture for my benefit too!

That should be the thread ender....

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:24 pm

I really hate the dead horse metaphor, too.

I've never seen anyone beat a dead horse. Much less beat a dying one. I know of two people who did and it haunted them.

fuckitfifcitfuckitdicjitfuckitihateitihateitihateit....

I think it coarsens us and inures us to the suffering of others to use it that way.

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:42 pm

gyre wrote:Putting it in such grand terms makes me want to explioit an entire culture for my benefit too!

I felt like I had to really spell it out for him to get it. I still don't think he will, or wants to. Sort of like arguing to a predetermined conclusion. Isn't there a word for that? He's decided already what he's going to do, everything that comes after is just waffling and equivocating to get the best possible spin on it.

Whatever, I don' really think it's worth my effort. Guess I just look at deliberate obtuseness as a challenge to overcome.

Bring on the Disney tour packages!

sktELEMENT · Post by **sktELEMENT** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:09 pm

I can't even believe that this is real, then I remember society, amd now I can. I seriously thought this was a joke though. Quite brilliant regardless.

He does not have the money, so the down payment will pay for everything. Seems like a rip off no matter how much cash someone has. A good travel agent would set this up for much cheaper, assuming you gave them a good cut.

Oh Burning Man, what is in store for your future?

sacramentogames · Post by **sacramentogames** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:26 am

sktELEMENT wrote:I can't even believe that this is real, then I remember society, amd now I can. I seriously thought this was a joke though. Quite brilliant regardless.

He does not have the money, so the down payment will pay for everything. Seems like a rip off no matter how much cash someone has. A good travel agent would set this up for much cheaper, assuming you gave them a good cut.

Oh Burning Man, what is in store for your future?

Another one with broken batteries in their calculator. You probably find difficulty trying to budget your kids Bday party much less putting together a larger event.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:04 am

sacramentogames wrote:[

Another one with broken batteries in their calculator. You probably find difficulty trying to budget your kids Bday party much less putting together a larger event.

Didn't think we could get under this sociopaths skin.. All though they have this oncanty sence of when to get out.. Now to make all this look like some one elese fualt..

Parasitoid · Post by **Parasitoid** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:18 am

what i dont understand is if someone really had 95,000 dollars to spend on this vacation wouldnt they realize they could just rent a really nice RV themselves and fill it with steaks and shrimp.

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:34 am

Parasitoid wrote:what i dont understand is if someone really had 95,000 dollars to spend on this vacation wouldnt they realize they could just rent a really nice RV themselves and fill it with steaks and shrimp.

His alleged service is doing that and more for people interested in BM but lacking the wherewithal to actually budget the time and effort involved in doing it themselves. Which is part of why the idea is antithetical to the principles of self reliance, non-spectator, participation, etc.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:51 am

JStep wrote:
Parasitoid wrote:what i dont understand is if someone really had 95,000 dollars to spend on this vacation wouldnt they realize they could just rent a really nice RV themselves and fill it with steaks and shrimp.
His alleged service is doing that and more for people interested in BM but lacking the wherewithal to actually budget the time and effort involved in doing it themselves. Which is part of why the idea is antithetical to the principles of self reliance, non-spectator, participation, etc.

Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles? I did what had to be done to earn the money to pay for getting it done. Totally self reliant. No difference in my mind. I just avoided the calluses.

JK

LLQchasm · Post by **LLQchasm** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:01 am

AntiM wrote:
ygmir wrote:isn't this horse dead yet?
Not until we get the dead horse gif, three more videos, a fail graphic, and a photo of a troll/fat lady/large explosion.

It isn't a dead horse, but a Trojan Horse. The default world is a virus that should be left behind as much as possible. Yupsters will not be turned into burners, but the other way around. The volume of "yupster tourists" is potentially far too great and would dilute BM. BM is a one person at a time revolution, but commercialism is a mass produced phenomenon. It will just end up turning BM into a tourist attraction.

Give an inch, take a mile. The following year there will be vendors, then tax collectors and before you know it, BRC will have a permanent presence year around on the playa and the real burners will have left to go into the desert of southern Oregon. The two approaches are antithetical to each other.

2012's Theme - "Welcome to Defaultia, the end of BM as you know it"

My very first post on this forum was "Virgin Burner concerned BM is getting too big". Now you see why I asked.

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:04 am

jkisha wrote: Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles? I did what had to be done to earn the money to pay for getting it done. Totally self reliant. No difference in my mind. I just avoided the calluses.

JK

Radical self reliance would seem to me to be a DIY ethic. Your question is like asking how paying someone to print you a shirt is less artistic than designing and printing your own shirt. Sure, you did it by virtue of paying to have it done, but the process is nowhere near the same thing as doing it yourself. The spirit of getting your hands dirty, pulling off a great achievement and growing through the process is (in my humble virgin opinion) more what BM and it's principles are all about. Just paying loads of cash to avoid the creative, arduous or mundane tasks doesn't seem to me to be what the spirit of the whole thing is all about. I guess your mileage varies, lol.

There's also the whole subjective argument about owning the culture, process, etc which I would think comes from feet on the ground, hard work, effort, expense, creativity etc all spent by participants. When you just buy a package and show up, I don't think you're going to feel the same sense of ownership, that this is "ours", that "we did this!". That's what I get from the principles and the way they stress the difference between BM and regular concert festivals where you buy a ticket and spectate at the pre-packaged, scheduled event.

That's how it's antithetical to the spirit of the thing as I understand it. It seems in direct opposition to the principles and how they are described.

sacramentogames · Post by **sacramentogames** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:05 am

unjonharley wrote:
sacramentogames wrote:[

Another one with broken batteries in their calculator. You probably find difficulty trying to budget your kids Bday party much less putting together a larger event.
Didn't think we could get under this sociopaths skin.. All though they have this oncanty sence of when to get out.. Now to make all this look like some one elese fualt..

Harley, you are an old man muttering words with no meaning. Youwere better off with the name calling. I am hardly a sociopath. Since you used it and probably have no clue of its meaning, I will help you out here. Sociopath- one who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior. Am I antisocial? I have been here and responded to everyones comments and posts. I have also been very respectful to everyone here on Eplaya. I am hardly antisocial.

Jstep, with all do respect, I listen and try to understand your frustration. Now, try to step back and try to see what I am trying to do. Read my previous posts and you will see my clients will fully participate. YOUR WAY is not the way everyone else chooses to burn. If your way is the only right way, you should write a book. Your fellow burners who have gone to BM for 8 years are now choosing to have our company bring the coaches in, set up camp, remove trash, tear down camp and clean the coaches. Would this also be considered "antithetical to the principles of self reliance, non-spectator, participation, etc."?

Parasitoid · Post by **Parasitoid** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:17 am

sacramentogames wrote:
unjonharley wrote:
sacramentogames wrote:[

Another one with broken batteries in their calculator. You probably find difficulty trying to budget your kids Bday party much less putting together a larger event.
Didn't think we could get under this sociopaths skin.. All though they have this oncanty sence of when to get out.. Now to make all this look like some one elese fualt..
Harley, you are an old man muttering words with no meaning. Youwere better off with the name calling. I am hardly a sociopath. Since you used it and probably have no clue of its meaning, I will help you out here. Sociopath- one who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior. Am I antisocial? I have been here and responded to everyones comments and posts. I have also been very respectful to everyone here on Eplaya. I am hardly antisocial.

Jstep, with all do respect, I listen and try to understand your frustration. Now, try to step back and try to see what I am trying to do. Read my previous posts and you will see my clients will fully participate. YOUR WAY is not the way everyone else chooses to burn. If your way is the only right way, you should write a book. Your fellow burners who have gone to BM for 8 years are now choosing to have our company bring the coaches in, set up camp, remove trash, tear down camp and clean the coaches. Would this also be considered "antithetical to the principles of self reliance, non-spectator, participation, etc."?

You are trying to make money right?

LLQchasm · Post by **LLQchasm** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:18 am

jkisha wrote:Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles?

"Because money is paper and paper has no intrinsic value. It represents an agreement between you and defaultia. If you want to enter into an agreement with the playa, you will have to work the dust." - anon

These are the words of an original burner who no longer attends since about 2003, but attended way back in 1993. This is the same person who helped me with my "burner education".

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:21 am

sacramentogames wrote: Jstep, with all do respect, I listen and try to understand your frustration. No why don't you step back and try to see what I am trying to do. Read my previous posts and you will see my clients will fully participate. YOUR WAY is not the way everyone else chooses to burn. If your way is the only right way, you should write a book. Your fellow burners who have gone to BM for 8 years are now choosing to have our company bring the coaches in, set up camp, remove trash, tear down camp and clean the coaches. Would this also be considered "antithetical to the principles of self reliance, non-spectator, participation, etc."?

In a word, yes.

I have read all of your posts, I've been following this thread since the start, I haven't failed to take in to consideration where you're coming from. I'm a capitalist too, but payment received for services rendered is not a self-justifying thing. Just because you can do it and someone will buy it doesn't mean it's necessarily a "good" thing.

I'm not arguing anything about "my way" as I have yet to attend a BM, which I have been very up front about. What I'm arguing is the abstract ideas and principles as stated by BMORG and it seems the majority of veteran burners.

If anything, you have not seemed to get what I and others are saying. And like I stated previously, you're arguing to a foregone conclusion. You have already decided what you're going to do and everything you say is simply to justify this conclusion and any alterations you make are simply to make it more palatable to anyone concerned with the way it seems to degrade the spirit of the event.

Also, and this is purely a style thing, your passive aggressive condescension is in no way above the "name calling" and ad hominem you have repeatedly derided. Insulting us with your condescension and smears about doing it "your way" is no better than just calling us asshats, for example.

LLQchasm · Post by **LLQchasm** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:21 am

sacramentogames wrote: Jstep, with all do respect...

Should say with all due respect... What's with your spelling anyway? Is English your second language?

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:26 am

LLQchasm wrote:
sacramentogames wrote: Jstep, with all do respect...
Should say with all due respect... What's with your spelling anyway? Is English your second language?

I've been assiduously avoiding pointing these out. Back on the first pages of this thread I stated how this story line doesn't add up. Isotopia recently went the same direction. Time will tell if we're just having an abstract debate with an illusion.

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:27 am

Thanks, LLQ..... I hadn't heard that quote. Nice........

LLQchasm · Post by **LLQchasm** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:32 am

JStep wrote:
LLQchasm wrote:
sacramentogames wrote: Jstep, with all do respect...
Should say with all due respect... What's with your spelling anyway? Is English your second language?
I've been assiduously avoiding pointing these out. Back on the first pages of this thread I stated how this story line doesn't add up. Isotopia recently went the same direction. Time will tell if we're just having an abstract debate with an illusion.

The eBay post may be an illusion, but the threat of commercial creep isn't. I feel it is only a matter of time before BM becomes Defaultia in disguise and hope I'm not too late in attending this year for my first time.

sacramentogames · Post by **sacramentogames** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:33 pm

Jstep, I get what you are saying (or at least I try to). As for being condescending, I am not trying to be condescending or rude to anyone (other than my remark to Harley). When you come to a forum like this, if I get aggressive in the way everyone has been towards me, this thread would get way out of hand real fast. So I apologize if I come off as condescending.

As for my spelling, I am responding to your comments and working at the same time. I didn't proof read my comments. We can pick apart my spelling but that takes this thread way off track. If you all feel that picking my spelling apart is productive, we should start a new thread and title it "Sacgames spelling sucks".

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:50 pm

I think we might start by agreeing that ribbing and snark targeted specifically towards a person's spelling is pretty chickenshit - especially when the snark is a lame substitute for making a cogent point in a discussion/argument.

JStep · Post by **JStep** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:28 pm

Isotopia wrote:I think we might start by agreeing that ribbing and snark targeted specifically towards a person's spelling is pretty chickenshit - especially when the snark is a lame substitute for making a cogent point in a discussion/argument.

Normally it would be. I don't think calling out typos makes any sense as we all make them. However, someone who's stating he operates at the level SG says he does, yet makes continual spelling and grammatical errors... Just one more thing that doesn't fit the narrative. No biggie, just never in my life saw a manager or business exec make so many basic errors.

Like I said, this is all abstract to me, I'm probably wrong so bring on the Disney tours!

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:32 pm

LLQchasm wrote:
jkisha wrote:Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles?
"Because money is paper and paper has no intrinsic value. It represents an agreement between you and defaultia. If you want to enter into an agreement with the playa, you will have to work the dust." - anon

These are the words of an original burner who no longer attends since about 2003, but attended way back in 1993. This is the same person who helped me with my "burner education".

LOL OK

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:38 pm

JStep wrote:
jkisha wrote: Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles? I did what had to be done to earn the money to pay for getting it done. Totally self reliant. No difference in my mind. I just avoided the calluses.

JK
Radical self reliance would seem to me to be a DIY ethic. Your question is like asking how paying someone to print you a shirt is less artistic than designing and printing your own shirt. Sure, you did it by virtue of paying to have it done, but the process is nowhere near the same thing as doing it yourself. The spirit of getting your hands dirty, pulling off a great achievement and growing through the process is (in my humble virgin opinion) more what BM and it's principles are all about. Just paying loads of cash to avoid the creative, arduous or mundane tasks doesn't seem to me to be what the spirit of the whole thing is all about. I guess your mileage varies, lol.

There's also the whole subjective argument about owning the culture, process, etc which I would think comes from feet on the ground, hard work, effort, expense, creativity etc all spent by participants. When you just buy a package and show up, I don't think you're going to feel the same sense of ownership, that this is "ours", that "we did this!". That's what I get from the principles and the way they stress the difference between BM and regular concert festivals where you buy a ticket and spectate at the pre-packaged, scheduled event.

That's how it's antithetical to the spirit of the thing as I understand it. It seems in direct opposition to the principles and how they are described.

I'm not artistic. If I wanted to gift nice artistically designed T-Shirts I'd pay someone to do them for me.

If I had someone to setup my camp, I'd have more time to actually enjoy the event. (and at my age, a lot more energy)

Calling Burning Man a "no commerce" zone is sort of hypocritical in the first place. BMORG spends a ton of money for permits, equipment rental, etc. COMMERCE. BMORG sells tickets. COMMERCE. We buy tickets. COMMERCE. We spend a ton of money preparing to come to the playa. COMMERCE. Then, when we get to the event we PRETEND that it is a no commerce zone.

Are we sure this isn't a my way is the only right way to burn argument?

Please, give me a break.

JK

C187 · Post by **C187** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:43 pm

Isotopia wrote:I think we might start by agreeing that ribbing and snark targeted specifically towards a person's spelling is pretty chickenshit - especially when the snark is a lame substitute for making a cogent point in a discussion/argument.

We be in agreement, yo!

Thinking of the whole 'ad' vs 'add' from the page before. Sometimes keyboards have this magical ability to stick on a key for a second. They also have the magical ability to not register a second impresion. (Mine does the later all the time.)

But yeah, nit picking spelling and grammar in such a highly formal and prestigious setting as eplaya is truly lowly. Just be happy people are attempting to make complete sentences with punctuation, and not writing like a pre-teen texting about her love for that beaver kid to her best friend.

Edit >

We now return you to the argument about the ebay post... group deals to the playa.. and if commerce is intrinsic to human nature or something along those lines.

Parasitoid · Post by **Parasitoid** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:01 pm

jkisha wrote:
JStep wrote:
jkisha wrote: Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles? I did what had to be done to earn the money to pay for getting it done. Totally self reliant. No difference in my mind. I just avoided the calluses.

JK
Radical self reliance would seem to me to be a DIY ethic. Your question is like asking how paying someone to print you a shirt is less artistic than designing and printing your own shirt. Sure, you did it by virtue of paying to have it done, but the process is nowhere near the same thing as doing it yourself. The spirit of getting your hands dirty, pulling off a great achievement and growing through the process is (in my humble virgin opinion) more what BM and it's principles are all about. Just paying loads of cash to avoid the creative, arduous or mundane tasks doesn't seem to me to be what the spirit of the whole thing is all about. I guess your mileage varies, lol.

There's also the whole subjective argument about owning the culture, process, etc which I would think comes from feet on the ground, hard work, effort, expense, creativity etc all spent by participants. When you just buy a package and show up, I don't think you're going to feel the same sense of ownership, that this is "ours", that "we did this!". That's what I get from the principles and the way they stress the difference between BM and regular concert festivals where you buy a ticket and spectate at the pre-packaged, scheduled event.

That's how it's antithetical to the spirit of the thing as I understand it. It seems in direct opposition to the principles and how they are described.
I'm not artistic. If I wanted to gift nice artistically designed T-Shirts I'd pay someone to do them for me.

If I had someone to setup my camp, I'd have more time to actually enjoy the event. (and at my age, a lot more energy)

Calling Burning Man a "no commerce" zone is sort of hypocritical in the first place. BMORG spends a ton of money for permits, equipment rental, etc. COMMERCE. BMORG sells tickets. COMMERCE. We buy tickets. COMMERCE. We spend a ton of money preparing to come to the playa. COMMERCE. Then, when we get to the event we PRETEND that it is a no commerce zone.

Are we sure this isn't a my way is the only right way to burn argument?

Please, give me a break.

JK

You haven't said anything about how this isn't against the principal.

All you have pointed out is that;
1. You would be willing to pay people for this type of service
2. That there are other things that go on at/around the event that are equally opposed to the principles listed.

Hypocricies are discussed on these boards quite frequently and I think they are good discussions that need to happen. Just because there are equally disturbing commodifications of the event occuring doesn't mean that this all inclusive represents the spirit of the event.

LLQchasm · Post by **LLQchasm** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:25 pm

jkisha wrote:Calling Burning Man a "no commerce" zone is sort of hypocritical in the first place. BMORG spends a ton of money for permits, equipment rental, etc. COMMERCE. BMORG sells tickets. COMMERCE. We buy tickets. COMMERCE. We spend a ton of money preparing to come to the playa. COMMERCE. Then, when we get to the event we PRETEND that it is a no commerce zone.

Are we sure this isn't a my way is the only right way to burn argument?

Please, give me a break.

JK

You just explained the reason why the guy I've been talking to about BM no longer comes to the festival. He said that it was better back in the days when there was more self reliance and there weren't as many RV's. We can try to draw a line that is somewhat arbitrary here or continue on the path to:

Theme 2012 - Welcome to Defaultia, the end of Burning Man as you know it..

sktELEMENT · Post by **sktELEMENT** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:01 pm

[quote="sacramentogames"][quote="sktELEMENT"]I can't even believe that this is real, then I remember society, amd now I can. I seriously thought this was a joke though. Quite brilliant regardless.

He does not have the money, so the down payment will pay for everything. Seems like a rip off no matter how much cash someone has. A good travel agent would set this up for much cheaper, assuming you gave them a good cut.

Oh Burning Man, what is in store for your future?[/quote]

Another one with broken batteries in their calculator. You probably find difficulty trying to budget your kids Bday party much less putting together a larger event.[/quote]

You are an idiot, and this is completely unfounded and senseless. Let alone pointless. "I'm so cool and snarky, everyone look how cool and snarky I am, but I won't add any relevance to my remarks, cause I am cool and snarky."

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:03 pm

Whether he is renting out RVs or Tents makes no Matter.

IMO RVs are actually MORE work( and self reliance) than tents anyhow, having done both for many years.

that is, unless you have a landlord on Playa that rents the RV to you, as well as sets it up and tears it down,not to mention having chefs, butlers, and maids and chauffers as well.