gross ebay post

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thirt33n
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Post by thirt33n » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:10 pm

Isotopia wrote:I think we might start by agreeing that ribbing and snark targeted specifically towards a person's spelling is pretty chickenshit - especially when the snark is a lame substitute for making a cogent point in a discussion/argument.
i agree with the latter for sure but from his first few posts on sacgames has stated that he works as an event organizer and obviously hopes to attract wealthy, possibly intelligent clientele and with his odd spelling and mixing of homonyms there is either something "fishy" or maybe he would like to improve his grammar in order to at least appear more observant to the world around him...?

i would assume that Kevin will be working on his grammar a little bit based on his reaction to other issues brought up.

maybe not. i guess i don't fucking care. what the hell am i doing? i have work to do. ...
blow.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:24 pm

jkisha wrote:I'm not artistic. If I wanted to gift nice artistically designed T-Shirts I'd pay someone to do them for me.
Um, we're all artistic, it's a part of the species. You may not have found where your gifts lie, or it may have been derided out of you, but I do not accept this premise.

Not that I'm paying much attention to this argument.
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Post by Elderberry » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:03 pm

LLQchasm wrote:
jkisha wrote:Calling Burning Man a "no commerce" zone is sort of hypocritical in the first place. BMORG spends a ton of money for permits, equipment rental, etc. COMMERCE. BMORG sells tickets. COMMERCE. We buy tickets. COMMERCE. We spend a ton of money preparing to come to the playa. COMMERCE. Then, when we get to the event we PRETEND that it is a no commerce zone.

Are we sure this isn't a my way is the only right way to burn argument?

Please, give me a break.

JK
You just explained the reason why the guy I've been talking to about BM no longer comes to the festival. He said that it was better back in the days when there was more self reliance and there weren't as many RV's. We can try to draw a line that is somewhat arbitrary here or continue on the path to:

Theme 2012 - Welcome to Defaultia, the end of Burning Man as you know it..
NOTHING ever remains the same...not if it is to grow and thrive. If your friend can't evolve with the times and embrace the change, maybe it's best your friend stays home and pines for "the good ole days."

JK
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Post by LLQchasm » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:37 pm

jkisha wrote:
LLQchasm wrote:
jkisha wrote:Calling Burning Man a "no commerce" zone is sort of hypocritical in the first place. BMORG spends a ton of money for permits, equipment rental, etc. COMMERCE. BMORG sells tickets. COMMERCE. We buy tickets. COMMERCE. We spend a ton of money preparing to come to the playa. COMMERCE. Then, when we get to the event we PRETEND that it is a no commerce zone.

Are we sure this isn't a my way is the only right way to burn argument?

Please, give me a break.

JK
You just explained the reason why the guy I've been talking to about BM no longer comes to the festival. He said that it was better back in the days when there was more self reliance and there weren't as many RV's. We can try to draw a line that is somewhat arbitrary here or continue on the path to:

Theme 2012 - Welcome to Defaultia, the end of Burning Man as you know it..
NOTHING ever remains the same...not if it is to grow and thrive. If your friend can't evolve with the times and embrace the change, maybe it's best your friend stays home and pines for "the good ole days."

JK
That's what he did. He didn't need you to say so; 2003 was his last time out. He's not even on this board. But I think an argument could be made to say that there are good ways to grow and bad ways as well.

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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:04 pm

I have come to the shocking realization that for every minute I pay attention to this post, it's one minute that I am either (a) not planning for next year, (b) not spending it with my hunny, or (c) not watching the level of the bottle of Hornitos not go down...

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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:07 pm

Once BLM figured out what was happening and started requiring permitting, the momentum wasn't coming from the llc* or the participants. It is what it is, and the idea that somehow it could have kept people out without a very good reason is probably wildly mistaken.

*or whatever ad hoc body was organizing it.
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Post by JStep » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:14 pm

jkisha wrote:
JStep wrote:
jkisha wrote: Why should doing something myself or paying someone else to do it for me be antithetical to the principles? I did what had to be done to earn the money to pay for getting it done. Totally self reliant. No difference in my mind. I just avoided the calluses.

JK
Radical self reliance would seem to me to be a DIY ethic. Your question is like asking how paying someone to print you a shirt is less artistic than designing and printing your own shirt. Sure, you did it by virtue of paying to have it done, but the process is nowhere near the same thing as doing it yourself. The spirit of getting your hands dirty, pulling off a great achievement and growing through the process is (in my humble virgin opinion) more what BM and it's principles are all about. Just paying loads of cash to avoid the creative, arduous or mundane tasks doesn't seem to me to be what the spirit of the whole thing is all about. I guess your mileage varies, lol.

There's also the whole subjective argument about owning the culture, process, etc which I would think comes from feet on the ground, hard work, effort, expense, creativity etc all spent by participants. When you just buy a package and show up, I don't think you're going to feel the same sense of ownership, that this is "ours", that "we did this!". That's what I get from the principles and the way they stress the difference between BM and regular concert festivals where you buy a ticket and spectate at the pre-packaged, scheduled event.

That's how it's antithetical to the spirit of the thing as I understand it. It seems in direct opposition to the principles and how they are described.
I'm not artistic. If I wanted to gift nice artistically designed T-Shirts I'd pay someone to do them for me.
That was an analogy about your implied statement that paying someone to set you up for BM was the same thing as doing it yourself and would be equally in keeping with the principle of radical self-reliance. Not an argument that you need to be a great visual artist to gift things.

If I had someone to setup my camp, I'd have more time to actually enjoy the event. (and at my age, a lot more energy)

Calling Burning Man a "no commerce" zone is sort of hypocritical in the first place. BMORG spends a ton of money for permits, equipment rental, etc. COMMERCE. BMORG sells tickets. COMMERCE. We buy tickets. COMMERCE. We spend a ton of money preparing to come to the playa. COMMERCE. Then, when we get to the event we PRETEND that it is a no commerce zone.

Are we sure this isn't a my way is the only right way to burn argument?
I am. I can't have a "way to burn" to point at and claim as the only way to do it, since I haven't done it. Being a (possibly naive) first timer, I'm simply arguing from what I as an up-till-now outsider perceive as the spirit and intent of the principles of the event. If I were the only one who thought selling pre-packaged spectator tours was in contravention of what BM is supposed to be about, I'd be questioning my own assessment of the event. However, it seems a great number of people share my initial reaction that selling the event for personal gain to those who cannot make the effort to genuinely prepare and participate is antithetical, exploitative, appalling and crass.
Please, give me a break.

JK
Sure, take a break!
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Post by LLQchasm » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Yes... It comes across in the same way that 19th century upper-crust English wanting to go to Africa on safari to see how the natives live:

"Oh look! See how the natives dance around the fire! Oh those savages! No clothes! Oh how vulgar! We're much too civilized to stoop to mucking around in the mud like that, now will you please call the butler to lay down the red carpet so that my coat tails don't get mucked up..." Jolly good!

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Post by sacramentogames » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:15 pm

LLQchasm wrote:Yes... It comes across in the same way that 19th century upper-crust English wanting to go to Africa on safari to see how the natives live:

"Oh look! See how the natives dance around the fire! Oh those savages! No clothes! Oh how vulgar! We're much too civilized to stoop to mucking around in the mud like that, now will you please call the butler to lay down the red carpet so that my coat tails don't get mucked up..." Jolly good!
OMG....you did not just go there.....so you assume my client is going to look at you as "tent trash"?

We are all equals out on the playa. It doesn't matter if you choose to go in a tent or cruise in a $300k RV. Everyone is entitled to enjoy BM their way. To assume we are there to look at the caged monkeys is absurd.

LLQ, I feel sorry for you.

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Post by LLQchasm » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:44 pm

sacramentogames wrote:
LLQ, I feel sorry for you.
Predictable. While you're feeling sorry for me and other "natives" roughing it out in the harsh desert elements, why don't you donate some of that playa profit to BRC?

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Post by sacramentogames » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 pm

LLQchasm wrote:
sacramentogames wrote:
LLQ, I feel sorry for you.
Predictable. While you're feeling sorry for me and other "natives" roughing it out in the harsh desert elements, why don't you donate some of that playa profit to BRC?
LLQ, I am going above and beyond to learn and grow from this community. I owe you nothing. I am arriving early to volunteer and I am staying after to fill our trucks with MOOP. We will be doing our part in participation. I am done with your ridiculous remarks.

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Post by LLQchasm » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:09 pm

sacramentogames wrote:I owe you nothing.
Mr "above it all" sac games... I didn't ask for anything for myself, but for BRC. I merely speak what some people think privately, but are too afraid to put forward in print.

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Post by LLQchasm » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:36 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:Whether he is renting out RVs or Tents makes no Matter.

IMO RVs are actually MORE work( and self reliance) than tents anyhow, having done both for many years.

that is, unless you have a landlord on Playa that rents the RV to you, as well as sets it up and tears it down,not to mention having chefs, butlers, and maids and chauffers as well.
I had an RV for several years as well, but I would argue that it makes you more dependent (on big oil). Just because you work harder doesn't mean that you are more independent. You are also sucked in by insurance companies to make your RV legal and then register that vehicle as well as your tow to get around and you are dependent upon grey/black water dumps and other facilities to make your use of your RV acceptable to the public. This way of doing it makes you more thoroughly entrenched in defaultia than ever. Having an RV on the west coast is better, but on the east it makes you an easy target for parking violations and forces you into $2000/month parking spaces (Cape Cod) to make you legal in some areas. It is similar to the situation in Japan; if you buy a vehicle there you have to shell out twice as much to be able to park it. There's no such thing as boon docking in the east. I got rid of it and with it my gas expenses and therefore I'm that much closer to independence from the system. Radical self reliance is at its core like survivorman.

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Post by Elderberry » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:19 pm

LLQchasm wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:Whether he is renting out RVs or Tents makes no Matter.

IMO RVs are actually MORE work( and self reliance) than tents anyhow, having done both for many years.

that is, unless you have a landlord on Playa that rents the RV to you, as well as sets it up and tears it down,not to mention having chefs, butlers, and maids and chauffers as well.
I had an RV for several years as well, but I would argue that it makes you more dependent (on big oil). Just because you work harder doesn't mean that you are more independent. You are also sucked in by insurance companies to make your RV legal and then register that vehicle as well as your tow to get around and you are dependent upon grey/black water dumps and other facilities to make your use of your RV acceptable to the public. This way of doing it makes you more thoroughly entrenched in defaultia than ever. Having an RV on the west coast is better, but on the east it makes you an easy target for parking violations and forces you into $2000/month parking spaces (Cape Cod) to make you legal in some areas. It is similar to the situation in Japan; if you buy a vehicle there you have to shell out twice as much to be able to park it. There's no such thing as boon docking in the east. I got rid of it and with it my gas expenses and therefore I'm that much closer to independence from the system. Radical self reliance is at its core like survivorman.
If you made more money you wouldn't feel that way. It's all relative, you know.

JK
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Post by curiousgnate » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:19 pm

JSTEP- you are amazing. i have not seen a virgin "get it" like you in a long time. "great burner virgin shall be!" Kevin doesn't get it no matter how hard he "tries." I say don't help him improve his ad on ebay at all. that last sentence says so many things in and of itself. I myself love that he had to remove his personal phone number from the original ad. no matter how one looks at this situation there is no way that it can be justified within the confines of the ten principles. some just get rid of the principles, but some embrace them. I am one who embraces them and while definitely not perfect strive to apply them to my daily life. I am glad that I have regional burns that I can attend where this kind of shit is not even an issue. I still love the "big one" and will continue going until i get too jaded. My favorite part of the burn is meeting new exciting open minded people who are there to participate(not spectate) and are radically self-reliant (don't have servants) and can soak the whole deal in. I have as said before met rich people at burningman many times, and most I have enjoyed spending time with, but most were there doing and not spectating. they set up their own camps, cooked their own food, and cleaned up after themselves. I am not burnier than thou! I am a burner!
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Post by Elderberry » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:29 pm

JStep wrote:However, it seems a great number of people share my initial reaction that selling the event for personal gain to those who cannot make the effort to genuinely prepare and participate is antithetical, exploitative, appalling and crass.
Yup, the same people that try to tell everyone else how to be a real burner.

Some people are on the board begging for free gift tickets, others can afford a luxurious burn. And most are somewhere in-between. The thing that makes Burning man Burning man is you can be yourself and not be judged. Or at least that's what I thought it was about. You might not get that impression from most of the posts on this thread.

JK
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Post by Kinetik V » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:33 pm

Someone posted this over on my board today and I took a look, laughed, and then said to everyone around me: Why in the hell did it take someone so long to do this? And everyone that read the offers thought it was a great concept.

Sacramentogames, I don't care if you make $1 or $10000 off it, I do think using eBay sucks, but otherwise it's logistically sound. And I hope it succeeds. Burning Man has apparently taken a look at it and found nothing to sic the legal eagles on...which also caught my attention....

As for the 12 pages of filler I just waded through I've got 4 words for it. Tempest in a teapot.

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Post by LLQchasm » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:52 pm

jkisha wrote:
LLQchasm wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:Whether he is renting out RVs or Tents makes no Matter.

IMO RVs are actually MORE work( and self reliance) than tents anyhow, having done both for many years.

that is, unless you have a landlord on Playa that rents the RV to you, as well as sets it up and tears it down,not to mention having chefs, butlers, and maids and chauffers as well.
I had an RV for several years as well, but I would argue that it makes you more dependent (on big oil). Just because you work harder doesn't mean that you are more independent. You are also sucked in by insurance companies to make your RV legal and then register that vehicle as well as your tow to get around and you are dependent upon grey/black water dumps and other facilities to make your use of your RV acceptable to the public. This way of doing it makes you more thoroughly entrenched in defaultia than ever. Having an RV on the west coast is better, but on the east it makes you an easy target for parking violations and forces you into $2000/month parking spaces (Cape Cod) to make you legal in some areas. It is similar to the situation in Japan; if you buy a vehicle there you have to shell out twice as much to be able to park it. There's no such thing as boon docking in the east. I got rid of it and with it my gas expenses and therefore I'm that much closer to independence from the system. Radical self reliance is at its core like survivorman.
If you made more money you wouldn't feel that way. It's all relative, you know.

JK
Presumptuous aren't we?

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Post by Elderberry » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:59 pm

LLQchasm wrote:
Presumptuous aren't we?
But of course.

JK
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Post by oneeyeddick » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:38 pm

sacramentogames wrote:. I am arriving early to volunteer and I am staying after to fill our trucks with MOOP. We will be doing our part in participation..
What makes you think that those that stay after and do thier "part" need your trucks to haul thier MOOP out?
We have all been pretty self sufficient, that is until you came along...
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Post by JStep » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:47 am

jkisha wrote:
JStep wrote:However, it seems a great number of people share my initial reaction that selling the event for personal gain to those who cannot make the effort to genuinely prepare and participate is antithetical, exploitative, appalling and crass.
Yup, the same people that try to tell everyone else how to be a real burner.
JK, that's completely absurd and a total non sequitur. What you just said is "Burnier than thou types view exploiting the culture of BM for profit is a bad thing." The implication being you better think that exploiting BM for personal gain is A-OK or that makes you a burnier than thou dickhead.

If your statements above, direct and implied, were correct, the 10 principles wouldn't exist or would look a LOT different.
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Post by actiongrl » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:02 am

The violation the post contained was the unauthorized use of Burning Man images in a commercial context. The seller removed those images this week after my reminder that the ticket text prohibits that type of use.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:21 am

JStep wrote:
jkisha wrote:
JStep wrote:However, it seems a great number of people share my initial reaction that selling the event for personal gain to those who cannot make the effort to genuinely prepare and participate is antithetical, exploitative, appalling and crass.
Yup, the same people that try to tell everyone else how to be a real burner.
JK, that's completely absurd and a total non sequitur. What you just said is "Burnier than thou types view exploiting the culture of BM for profit is a bad thing." The implication being you better think that exploiting BM for personal gain is A-OK or that makes you a burnier than thou dickhead.

If your statements above, direct and implied, were correct, the 10 principles wouldn't exist or would look a LOT different.
non sequitur? Stop using all those big foreign sounding words. I sort of view the 10 principles the same way I view the bible or qur'an.

BM is an ART FESTIVAL, not a religion or even a way of life. It's a week camping in the desert.

JK
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Post by JStep » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:33 am

jkisha wrote:
JStep wrote:
jkisha wrote: Yup, the same people that try to tell everyone else how to be a real burner.
JK, that's completely absurd and a total non sequitur. What you just said is "Burnier than thou types view exploiting the culture of BM for profit is a bad thing." The implication being you better think that exploiting BM for personal gain is A-OK or that makes you a burnier than thou dickhead.

If your statements above, direct and implied, were correct, the 10 principles wouldn't exist or would look a LOT different.
non sequitur? Stop using all those big foreign sounding words. I sort of view the 10 principles the same way I view the bible or qur'an.

BM is an ART FESTIVAL, not a religion or even a way of life. It's a week camping in the desert.

JK
LOL, I don't think I remember the 10 principles mentioning ghosts, deities, salvation, hell or anything else. Seems pretty rooted in a specific real world situation. In fact, it IS. Now you're just blowing smoke.
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Post by sacramentogames » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:46 am

oneeyeddick wrote:
sacramentogames wrote:. I am arriving early to volunteer and I am staying after to fill our trucks with MOOP. We will be doing our part in participation..
What makes you think that those that stay after and do thier "part" need your trucks to haul thier MOOP out?
We have all been pretty self sufficient, that is until you came along...
So you are saying that since we will be there, you will no longer be self sufficient? *chuckle*

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Post by ibdave » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:02 am

LLQ, Your right, maybe you shouldn't come to the Burn....

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ht=#626246

For someone who's NEVER been and stirring things up as much as you have, it just might not be your thing... :shock: :roll: :roll:
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Post by LLQchasm » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:08 am

ibdave wrote:LLQ, Your right, maybe you shouldn't come to the Burn....

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ht=#626246

For someone who's NEVER been and stirring things up as much as you have, it just might not be your thing... :shock: :roll: :roll:
There goes BM principle of radical inclusion out the window... :roll:

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:09 am

class warfare is class warfare no matter where it takes place.

how about we drop the rich man poor man crap and see how they are in person and action.

that is yet to be seen, so why pass harsh judgment or pour praise until it has actually occurred.

it's like arguing over whether or not the future is going to suck.


oh wait, thats half of the fucking threads....nevermind...

i'll go back to watching the snowfall, it's more meaningful and has a lot more content.
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Post by ibdave » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:11 am

LLQchasm wrote:
ibdave wrote:LLQ, Your right, maybe you shouldn't come to the Burn....

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ht=#626246

For someone who's NEVER been and stirring things up as much as you have, it just might not be your thing... :shock: :roll: :roll:
There goes BM principle of radical inclusion out the window... :roll:
Hey, you said it in you very 1st post... Nobody said it for you.. :idea:
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg

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Post by LLQchasm » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:18 am

ibdave wrote:
LLQchasm wrote:
ibdave wrote:LLQ, Your right, maybe you shouldn't come to the Burn....

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ht=#626246

For someone who's NEVER been and stirring things up as much as you have, it just might not be your thing... :shock: :roll: :roll:
There goes BM principle of radical inclusion out the window... :roll:
Hey, you said it in you very 1st post... Nobody said it for you.. :idea:
You didn't finish reading the thread.

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