Can You Figure Out What Nation This Is?

[theCryptofishist]

Make sure to differentiate between Cheboygan, Michigan, and Sheboygan, Wisconsin. Krusty the Clown once referred to one of them, but I've always wondered which it was...

Dang, no wonder I was confused. I thought maybe I'd confused Sheboygan with Cudahay. And considering that Krusty is a resident of Springfield, State Unknown, I don't think you'll ever know. . .

[Magikal]

Glad your not a Sock and again sorry for the biligerence. Someone had posted that same story a year or two ago and never came back to refrute my points and I thought it was you.

I do hate when people blame the Germans for the fall of Rome without the full picture.

I have some chores to do. I'll come back and we can discuss the finer mistakes of your original post.

A II Z

*Bows* A pleasure to meet you.

No, actually I had not considered the Germans (barbarians) for the fall of Rome. If anything, they had come in and started hacking peoples' heads off once they were already declining and falling all over the place all on their own, due to internal corruption and lack of personal honor/integrity. Not really the CAUSE of collapse, no more than termites are to blame for the tree falling down once it is dead. And that, I think, was the meat of my origional posting, to wit, comparing the collapse of ancient Rome with our own culture and its seeming "race for the bottom".

I'm intrigued by the references to Christianity, tho. Most texts would say Christianity POSTPONED the fall, or certainly offered a smooth transition from empire. Had never heard of it being offered as a CAUSE.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

*Bows* A pleasure to meet you.

No, actually I had not considered the Germans (barbarians) for the fall of Rome. If anything, they had come in and started hacking peoples' heads off once they were already declining and falling all over the place all on their own, due to internal corruption and lack of personal honor/integrity. Not really the CAUSE of collapse, no more than termites are to blame for the tree falling down once it is dead. And that, I think, was the meat of my origional posting, to wit, comparing the collapse of ancient Rome with our own culture and its seeming "race for the bottom".

I'm intrigued by the references to Christianity, tho. Most texts would say Christianity POSTPONED the fall, or certainly offered a smooth transition from empire. Had never heard of it being offered as a CAUSE.

The Goths actually didn't change the Empire and kept in place the institutions as they found them. They weren't as ignorant as some as claimed, but knew well of roman life.

"...offered a smooth transition from empire..."

to what? Collapse!

Why would a Christian want to blame their own. Just rewrite history to serve their purpose. Destroy the institutions of the Roman and Gods. Constintine dividing the Empire into two because he was able to get away from those romans that took offense to him and Forcing Chistianity on the masses. Christians burning the libraries and destruction of Universities contributing to ignorant politicians that didn't understand their own laws and became pawns of the church. I'm sure church saw education as something that conflicted with the core of the church and wanted the masses to be ignorant as the sheep of the flock to follow un-guestioned the herder.

Rome suffered an intellectual drain because intelligent people questioned the church.

A II Z

[Apollonaris Zeus]

PS- I see America as being strong and growing to more freedoms until the recent Republican conservative movement. They are the status quo. Our weakening of our rights, the anti-gay movements, interracial setbacks, the inclusion of God and the making of the judeo-christian practises as the official Religion of America- the display of the 10 commandments which support a dictatoral Titan God. Large tax breaks to the wealthy. Attacking foreign countries without justified cause to obtain their natural resource wealth by the use of lies and deceptions. An unchecked deficit that will be 5 trillon by 2010.

I see the beginings of Athens 5th century, Sicily 5th century and Rome 50AD falling once again.

But all it takes to reverse this downward spiral is to get Bush out of office. four more years of him we will be ruined perhaps collapsed.

A II Z

[Simply Joel]

PS- I see America as being strong and growing to more freedoms until the recent Republican conservative movement.

Oh puleeze...

The Clinton administration exposed the soft weak underbelly of the USA, with no real effor to check terrorism as the chief executive stated he would. More freedoms... could you elaborate as to which ones you are referring to?

They are the status quo. Our weakening of our rights, the anti-gay movements, interracial setbacks, the inclusion of God and the making of the judeo-christian practises as the official Religion of America- the display of the 10 commandments which support a dictatoral Titan God.

Have you ever take n a moment to consider "they" feel their way of life is under attack... that the "anti-gay movement" is really a pro-hetrosexuality movement... iterracial setbacks (cites please)... and take a real look at the Clinton Administation's acheivements... not much happened according to African-American friends living/working on the south side of Chicago... official religion of America... I don't think so... and by the way, all the past Presidents have been Judeo-Christian... so why not attack them en masse? Please note, I do not relish the President using his office as bully-pulpit, yet I know his term of office is four years, I am patient, I will wait for a change.

Large tax breaks to the wealthy.

every dollar is a vote... anyway your look at it. The wealthy have rights too, and an apparatus (maybe a better one than the rest of us) by which to use them... just like all of us.

Attacking foreign countries without justified cause to obtain their natural resource wealth by the use of lies and deceptions.

Yet, what happens when don't have sufficient resources? Please take your argument a little further... what happens when the oil runs out?
What happens when the power plants no longer provide what the population wants? What happens when our sacred little e-playa doesn't work because there is no power?

An unchecked deficit that will be 5 trillon by 2010.
I see the beginings of Athens 5th century, Sicily 5th century and Rome 50AD falling once again.

Yeah, me too, but it is because of voter apathy, cynicism, skepticism and non-participation... IMHO

But all it takes to reverse this downward spiral is to get Bush out of office. four more years of him we will be ruined perhaps collapsed.
A II Z

for calling him so inept in all your posts, you certainly give him plenty of credit for unforseen failure... yet, what if his plan succeeds, will you be so willing to be venomous, or will you ignore his successes as you ignore some realities?


I believe it is ok to disagree, but I don't see a point in being disagreeable... and your disagreeableness weakens most every argument or discussion point you put forward.

have a nice weekend...

joel, just giving a perspective from the heartland.... (Illinois)

[Lark]

[theCryptofishist]

And the syphilitic emperor I just aborted is Beethoven, right?

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Oh puleeze...

>do you mean- Please

The Clinton administration exposed the soft weak underbelly of the USA, with no real effor to check terrorism

>Dick cheney voted against going after Hezbollah in Iran because of >Hallibuton interests! SJ, you have to stop listening Rush, Clinton did alot >more then you and the conservatives wil ever realize and would have >done more if he had too without going after a innocent country. But I >guess now that the bush administration has found their fallguy, the CIA, >that takes them off the hook. We should give Clinton the credit he >deserves, He got Saddam to get rid of his weapons of Mass Destruction! >Clinton had Homeland Security in place and Bush Ignored it right up to >Sept 10th when He had his first meeting with His National SEcurity >Advisor, but since Richard Clark didn't have anything nice to say about Bush's readiness the National Security Advisor doesn't know what He's taking about!

interracial setbacks (cites please)

>... Affermative Action Repeals!

I am patient, I will wait for a change.

>what for collapse of our economy, social security, Budget and tax >breaks!


Yet, what happens when don't have sufficient resources? Please take your argument a little further... what happens when the oil runs out?
What happens when the power plants no longer provide what the population wants? What happens when our sacred little e-playa doesn't work because there is no power?

>I guess you never heard of alternative energy development (AED) or >C.A.F.E., but lets ignore those aspects because Russa has more oil we >can attack them next when we need more.

>On Per Capita- Bush has allowcated the lowest amount ever for AED
>and no changes in cafe.

have a nice weekend...

>Yea, You too and say hello to Rush at the County Club when you see him >for me!

[Simply Joel]

Oh puleeze...

>do you mean- Please

No, i typed what i meant...

>

Yea, You too and say hello to Rush at the County Club when you see him >for me!

I am not a listener or supporter of the nonsense put forth by Rush and his ilk.

Furthermore if you care, I avoid Country Club's as much I avoid people with opinions like yours.

[samtzu]

Joel said:

I am not a listener or supporter of the nonsense put forth by Rush and his ilk.

I, too, was hoping to find an Ilk Free Zone here... but...

Hey! Got Ilk?

[Apollonaris Zeus]

I am not a listener or supporter of the nonsense put forth by Rush and his ilk.

Sometimes the rethoric sounds very similar.

Because of Bush's tax cuts for those that can afford to pay and his spending like a spoiled rich kid that never earned a dime of his own not at the expense of others- and I speak the truth about gw.

We will be ruin by 2010, Joel!
If he succeeds in making his tax cut permanent we will be 5 trillon dollars in the hole. All our economist are warning to change the course now!

Joel, Everything that you have fought for in the armed forces will be gone!

Nothing that Bush has proposed and enacted has done this county well except for helping the rich. All his programs have failed.

Total failures!

A II Z

[BAS]

and by the way, all the past Presidents have been Judeo-Christian

I thought one of them was a Unitarian, which is not an inherently Judeo-Christian faith...?

[samtzu]

A II Z wrote:

We will be ruin by 2010, Joel!
If he succeeds in making his tax cut permanent we will be 5 trillon dollars in the hole. All our economist are warning to change the course now!

Zeus, while I disagree with your rhetoric... I disagree more with your syntax.... it's driving me up the fucking wall!!!! God knows I can't spell, but errors in syntax make my already shaky bowels to start to quiver in depredation. I have found nothing worse... except most of Willy the Shake's verse!!! Shit, shit, shit... It me has running circles in... like dog I howl!!! Shit....

[Magikal]

"...offered a smooth transition from empire..."

to what? Collapse!

No, FROM collapse, i.e., they were an organization with an existing, stable structure that was around to "pick up the pieces" once Rome went kerflooie (pardon my technical jargon). Or at least that was my (admittedly vague) understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.

Why would a Christian want to blame their own. Just rewrite history to serve their purpose. Destroy the institutions of the Roman and Gods. Constintine dividing the Empire into two because he was able to get away from those romans that took offense to him and Forcing Chistianity on the masses. Christians burning the libraries and destruction of Universities contributing to ignorant politicians that didn't understand their own laws and became pawns of the church.

Mmmm ignorant perhaps at first, but I cannot buy (then or now) that anyone would STAY ignorant. There is always someone, or some institution around that keeps this information, much like the "living books" of Farenheit 451. Yes, the Christians may have burned the libraries, but the first time a poorly-crafted law falls on its face and DOESN'T do what a politician intended, he has GOT to (unless he is helplessly blinded by his own "I wanted it to work so bad!" thinking) question his basic assumptions. Once he does, someone would be around to say, "Well, ya know, the Assyrians (or whoever) tried that in 6,000 BC, and here's what happened. Can't really see the Christians would be to blame for stupid people staying stupid.

I'm sure church saw education as something that conflicted with the core of the church and wanted the masses to be ignorant as the sheep of the flock to follow un-guestioned the herder.
A II Z

THAT I won't question. The Catholic church had more than a few would-be tyrants, and (then as now), those who aspire to tyrant status VASTLY prefer the body of the people remain uneducated, because an uneducated man is easily frightened and driven, whereas an educated man is not, and makes a crappy slave and lousy cannon-fodder. Which, frankly, was all ANY of the leaders then thought they were good for. Only the Ancient Greeks, who invented the idea of democracy, and the Romans in the early days (who essentially stole the idea, bless them) were any different. Too, this is why our own founding fathers placed such a high emphasis on education.

[Magikal]

PS- I see America as being strong and growing to more freedoms until the recent Republican conservative movement. They are the status quo. Our weakening of our rights, the anti-gay movements, interracial setbacks,...

No, the Republican thing is not recent. These are all (for better or worse) the core values of middle America (check the red-vs.-blue states map for exact locations near you).

...the inclusion of God and the making of the judeo-christian practises as the official Religion of America- the display of the 10 commandments which support a dictatoral Titan God.

Actually, religious (Judeo-Christian) symbology is interwoven into the architecture of many of the buildings in D.C., including depictions of the ten commandments. Too, if you pull a greenback out of your wallet (now unbacked by gold or silver thnx. to Roosevelt II), or a copper-sandwich, non-valuable-metal bit of coinage out of your pocket, you will see each has emblazoned on it, "In God we trust". And if you read any of the writings of the founding fathers, they were all deeply religious men and were not shy about explaining they were interweaving religious principles into this new nation they were forging. The conclusion is inescapable: this is a religious nation, and was from the outset. It is the EXCLUSION of religion that is unnatural (insofar as ANY government, the child of man, can be considered "natural"). You will never find the phrase "seperation of church and state" anywhere in the constitution or bill of rights. That was only in the writings of (I think) Jefferson.

Attacking foreign countries without justified cause to obtain their natural resource wealth by the use of lies and deceptions.

Not really on topic, but we apparently only get 3% of our oil from Iraq. Hardly cause enough to attack them & cause the deaths of so many of our own troops for what amounts to little more than a hiccup if we were only there trading "blood for oil".

But all it takes to reverse this downward spiral is to get Bush out of office. four more years of him we will be ruined perhaps collapsed.

A II Z

Oooh, I wouldn't put it all at Bush's feet. This has been going on for a long, loooong, time. At least since Roosevelt II, and probably before. I don't think you should make him the repository of all your problems, nor his removal from office the salvation from them. Even if he were booted out tomorrow, I really don't think it would materially change things.

[Simply Joel]

wow, and to think all that without the aid of socks....

[Magikal]

wow, and to think all that without the aid of socks....

And I ain't no slouch at building a campfire, either.

[stuart]

And if you read any of the writings of the founding fathers, they were all deeply religious men and were not shy about explaining they were interweaving religious principles into this new nation they were forging.

this is so utterly false, so much a part of the modern myth of america.

[cowboyangel]

agreed Stuart.
interested parties please see Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States"

[Rob the Wop]

Kudos to Stuart and Cowboy. I was sooooo fucking tempted, but pulled out my blood pressure card and realized not to go down this track.

Pet peeve: Religious zealots creating myths solely to back their agenda. Freedom of religion did NOT mean freedom to solely practice a specific religion. The colony had enough experience with Henry the Eighth and Bloody Mary via British history to make THAT the mistake again. You can't include all religions in politics as they often counter each other in various areas- so, no religion is best. Else you are pretty much guaranteed at least one repressed minority.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Kudos to Stuart and Cowboy. I was sooooo fucking tempted, but pulled out my blood pressure card and realized not to go down this track.

Pet peeve: Religious zealots creating myths solely to back their agenda. Freedom of religion did NOT mean freedom to solely practice a specific religion. The colony had enough experience with Henry the Eighth and Bloody Mary via British history to make THAT the mistake again. You can't include all religions in politics as they often counter each other in various areas- so, no religion is best. Else you are pretty much guaranteed at least one repressed minority.

Right ON

ONe the main reason for the Bill of Rights- James Madison saw problems already forming with Byathist and other churches, Oops I meant the Baptist party!

A II Z

PS Samzu, What Sintax! If I had to pay a buck for everyone of my Sins, America's, soon to be, 5 trillon deficit would be nothing!

[samtzu]

(Sound of Sam's head beating repeatedly against solid desk)

[cowboyangel]

the nation of freedonia? "all hail freedonia"

[Apollonaris Zeus]

the nation of freedonia? "all hail freedonia"

Movie rights are for sale?

where's Michael?

A II Z

[Jus Say Ventura]

It's definately a Girly Man state!

[samtzu]

Where is Rufus T. Firefly now that we really need him?

[Magikal]

And if you read any of the writings of the founding fathers, they were all deeply religious men and were not shy about explaining they were interweaving religious principles into this new nation they were forging.

this is so utterly false, so much a part of the modern myth of america.

Please elucidate. This is just my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong, I will be the first to admit I frequently am.

agreed Stuart.
interested parties please see Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States"

Again, please elucidate. I regret I don't have time to read every book recommended to me. Would you be kind enough to give me a thumb-nail sketch?

Kudos to Stuart and Cowboy. I was sooooo fucking tempted, but pulled out my blood pressure card and realized not to go down this track.

Pet peeve: Religious zealots creating myths solely to back their agenda.

If by "religious zelots" you are referring to me, you are incorrect: I am, at best, an agnostic. That being said, even I am not blind to the power of religion on politics.

Freedom of religion did NOT mean freedom to solely practice a specific religion. The colony had enough experience with Henry the Eighth and Bloody Mary via British history to make THAT the mistake again. You can't include all religions in politics as they often counter each other in various areas- so, no religion is best. Else you are pretty much guaranteed at least one repressed minority

I couldn't agree more. However, what it seems we have today is a de facto attempt to create freedom from religion, i.e. no Xmas displays, removing crosses on hills on city land, etc. Too often, this certainly seems to bear all the markings of little more than anti-Christian bigotry rather than broad-minded egalitarianism, which it is passed off as.

(Sound of Sam's head beating repeatedly against solid desk)

I have asprin, if you need some.

[Simply Joel]

Main Entry: elu·ci·date
Pronunciation: i-'lü-s&-"dAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -dat·ed; -dat·ing
Etymology: Late Latin elucidatus, past participle of elucidare, from Latin e- + lucidus lucid
Date: circa 1568
transitive senses : to make lucid especially by explanation or analysis
intransitive senses : to give a clarifying explanation
synonym see EXPLAIN

education is a wonderful thing.

[Rob the Wop]

I couldn't agree more. However, what it seems we have today is a de facto attempt to create freedom from religion, i.e. no Xmas displays, removing crosses on hills on city land, etc. Too often, this certainly seems to bear all the markings of little more than anti-Christian bigotry rather than broad-minded egalitarianism, which it is passed off as.

1) Xmas is a Pagan holiday. Research Pope Julius I. Notice any similiarities between declaring our founding fathers to have established a religious nation (meaning Christian- not Islamic or Buddhist) and our buddy Julius? Maybe say- perpetuating a myth in order to suppress rival religions?

2) We should remove reference to SPECIFIC religions from government and public buildings. Either all or none, anything inbetween is breeding a hostile minority. Take the case of the 10 Commandments in the walls of public schools. What do you think a Islamic, Buddhist, or Hindu family thinks of their children being forced to stare at Christian teachings all day? Do you really think a Satanic or Pagan mural would be 'allowed' in the same school? It's not a 'anti-Christian' sentiment of refraining from jamming Christian symbolism and teachings down people's throats; it's more of a 'pro-every-other-religion-on-earth'.

BTW, mother Baptist, father Roman Catholic. Went to Catholic school in my youth. Now a devout (so to speak) atheist. Way too many really fucked up things in history happened due to religion in politics. And continue to happen. IMHO religious based government is something the world could very well do without.

[Simply Joel]

We should remove reference to SPECIFIC religions from government and public buildings. Either all or none, anything inbetween is breeding a hostile minority. Take the case of the 10 Commandments in the walls of public schools.

are you really willing to pay the tab ($$$$$) for this when other education issue take priority?