Why is Burning Man so white?

[Lydia Love]

or some people don't feel the need to run their little red wagons over this territory AGAIN.

[Last Real Burner]

You Got A Red Wagon???????

[BAS]

Hmm. A red wagon..., I've never owned a red car and would like to get another little station wagon....

Okay, I should go to bed now. Not only am I talking to myself, I am now writing to myself!

[zzberlin]

> typically,
> mr smith

Dearest Mr. Smith,

The eplaya has known you to be a great
many things, but 'typical' is not one.

best
harriet

[Last Real Burner]

Why thank you zz,

"It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help. "

certainly,
mr smith

[Hotspur]

.....
" By definition, if race is inheritable then members of the same race will have DNA more similiar than members of different races. Are you with me?"

This statement is only sort of true. For example, it's generally not true of black africans, where there is so much genetic diversity than that there are villiages in africa which display as much genetic diversity as the rest of the (non-African) world combined. Similarly, however, a person who comes from a tribal group with it's origins in modern-day Nigeria could have very little in common, genetically, with a person who comes from a Botswanan, even though we in the U.S. would look and them both and say, "oh, they're both black."

And similarly, because of the vagarities of the slave trade and historical migration patterns, combined with what the US tends to define as black, there is a surprising amount of correlation between black americans and the Irish.

Certainly, two whites will tend to have more in common with each other than, say, a white and a nonwhite, but exceptions abound. There are populations which don't look anything alike which have remarkable genetic similarities. Strange genetic parallels show up all the time between populations that looks almost nothing alike and have no known history of intermingling.

Furthermore, from an evolutionary standpoint, skin color can change VERY quickly, and thus is a relatively poor tool to use for guaging genetic similarities, or differences.

Just food for thought.

One other item:

A lot of us come from communities with large minority presences. My high school, for example, was probably 40% black. But the US population is only 13% black, which leads to interesting problems of perception: drop me in a population that 18% black, and it will feel, to me, like an unusually white community despite the fact that blacks are actually overrpresented in that community compared to their proportion of the national population.

I personally doubt BRC is 13% black, but if it were, how many of us would feel like that was a representative community? Despite the fact that America is 13% black, there are very few communities in this country which match that percentage. It may well be unreasonable to expect Burning Man to match the latest U.S. census, so we ought to focus more on making sure that nobody feels unwelcome because of their skin color.

[calsur]

Could it possibly be that "people of color", who tend to originate in really hot climates, not want to have anything to do with the crazy white folk who go camping in the desert in August/September? Could it be that they are smart enough to have BBQ's in thier nice tree shaded backyards with a flush toilet and air conditioning 10 steps away? Might it be that they are smart enought to not want to deal with 70 mph whiteouts at 100 degree plus temperatures? Or frezzing thier buns off at night?

I have this mental image picture of some Dad of color calling his kids around computer monitor and showing them the images from BRC and saying "See what being white gets you!'

Just my opinion

[Bob]

If a black man nicknamed Holiday had been on holiday with us... er, DPW... for years... would it stop all your wanking?

[Lysergic]

I believe in free expression, and an open uncensored forum for anything, albeit intelligent or not, cause we should which to participate in.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Certainly, two whites will tend to have more in common with each other than, say, a white and a nonwhite,

DNA tests have proven then this isn't true. There are white people that have more similarities with a non-white then a another white person.

Which proves that light skin doesn't mean a thang for anythang.

There may be a very dark tribe in Africa that has a similar DNA structure with some Germans which may only prove that they are all from the same African tribe that left before the last Ice Age or two.

These posts deserve to be posted on the "Stupid Whites at BM thread!"

A II Z

[notthat1]

I have this mental image picture of some Dad of color calling his kids around computer monitor and showing them the images from BRC and saying "See what being white gets you!'

That was funny ( i'm assuming you were trying to be funny there). But from some of the remarks i've read, i think some of you are missing the point. BM appeals to those of us who are, ahh, lets say left of center.( to me) This isn't a Black, or White issue, more a artistic , lifestyle thing. Cause if you really think about it, for as many *white* people that are there, there are millions more who aren't. In a *perfect* world the Playa would have all colors (without body paint) there. But it's really not a big deal either way.

[notthat1]

I have this mental image picture of some Dad of color calling his kids around computer monitor and showing them the images from BRC and saying "See what being white gets you!'

That was funny ( i'm assuming you were trying to be funny there). But from some of the remarks i've read, i think some of you are missing the point. BM appeals to those of us who are, ahh, lets say left of center.( to me) This isn't a Black, or White issue, more a artistic , lifestyle thing. Cause if you really think about it, for as many *white* people that are there, there are millions more who aren't. In a *perfect* world the Playa would have all colors (without body paint) there. But it's really not a big deal either way.

[Hotspur]

Certainly, two whites will tend to have more in common with each other than, say, a white and a nonwhite,

Did you read my whole post?

Did you miss the part where I excluded black africans from the discussion and talked about "execptions abound."

Would you like me to provide citations?

[calsur]

Yes, I was trying to be funny.

[Bob]

....BM appeals to those of us who are, ahh, lets say left of center....

Cite?




http://afterburn.burningman.com/03/cens ... teact.html

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Did you read my whole post?

Did you miss the part where I excluded black africans from the discussion and talked about "execptions abound."

Yes

and

Is that what you meant?

Accepted!

"...there is a surprising amount of correlation between black americans and the Irish."

Explain?

Bob- good point! BM is not a bunch of activists!

does that mean we're not left of center?

Does that mean no pie for us?

A II Z

[Simply Joel]

As a caucasion, I would like to point out... my skin color is actually several diffent shades of pink, sometimes tan due to sunbathing... not white as this thread infers.

I hope this clears everything up for everyone.

[Hotspur]

Okay, first I want to apologize for the tone of my last post. I was having a bad day.

Basically, there are two issues at work here. The first is descent. Basically, we all descended from africans. That is to say that black africans have all of the genes you'll see in anyone, anywhere. Different populations (not races, populations) are descended from different subsets of african populations. That's why you could, hypothetically, find that (say) scandinavians share a huge amount of DNA with Herero (just picking population groups at random here, not saying this correlation actually exists) -- because the people who are now scandinavian descended from a group that migrated from Africa at such-and-such a time.

Complicating factors: skin color changes quickly, so it's not like Europe (ie 'White People') came from one migration of blacks from africa, but rather a series of them over time. These populations have mixed to various extents during the subsequent millenia.

So you end up with a situation where white people will tend to come from one subset of african DNA -- the subset made up of the various ancient migrations from africa to europe. Whereas Asians will come from the various subsets of african exodus that moved east, etc. And exceptions abound, as there are asian populations which evidently migrated to Europe first, and thus are closely related with subsets of the European population.

But in broad terms, with loads of exceptions, the principle holds that white people, in general, will have more in common with other white people than with Asians -- because you're dealing with different subsets of the original african population. But this can be deceptive becuase, since skin color changes relatively quickly, a population that went from africa to asia can end up with similar external characteristics as one that went from africa to europe to asia, despite no particular genetic similarity at the time of arriving in asia.

This has to do with what we can consider pre-history. The second issue here has to do with more recent history. For example, many black african men were shipped, via the slave trade, to the mediterranean, where Irish women who's husbands were killed when they were kicked off their land by various Brittish factions were also send. The two slave populations (african men, irish women) mixed -- and then many slaves from this area were transported to North America.

The upshot is that you can make reasonable guesses about somebody's ethnicity from their DNA -- something that's called the Anderson test, IIRC (which I may not, it's been a while). Like a lot of reasonable guesses, you'll be wrong sometime -- but the fact that you're wrong sometime doesn't invalidate the test, it just means you have to be careful about overapplying it.

It's wrong to say, "All white people have similar DNA," but correct to say the more hedged, "Two white people will tend to have DNA that's more similar than a white and a nonwhite person." ("Tend" gives you a lot of wiggle room and acknowledges that a general tendency can absolutely not apply to lots of specific individuals. eg, "Whites in america tend to be richer than blacks" is unambiguously true, but there are plenty of dirt poor white and increasing numbers of very wealthy blacks. The tendency is true despite the exceptions.)

And, as you can probably figure out from the whole post, you can sub 'asian' for 'white' in that sentence, but you CAN'T sub 'black' into it. There's too much genetic diversity in Africa.

Hopefully this clears up something that I didn't go into as much detail as I could have in my previous post.

-H

[Simply Joel]

i am still pink and tan.

[DVD Burner]

Everyone on this thread is discriminating against me.Boo hoo.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

For example, many black african men were shipped, via the slave trade, to the mediterranean, where Irish women who's husbands were killed when they were kicked off their land by various Brittish factions were also send.

So that explains Jetter of the NY Yankees!

A great combination!

Fine little essay Hotspur. We are all Africans, its just that some of have been on a long journey.

This is one of the best web sites on many scientific topics including this one. This page is on early humans: http://www.howcomyoucom.com/earlyhumans.shtml

There is a tribe in south eastern Africa that has stronger DNA ties to the early Jews then those from Europe and eastern Europe. They claim they are the lost tribe of Israel. Israel won't recognized them as such, Yet!

I'm sure that for every european and Asian ethnic group there is a distant tribe in Africa in some valley that they orignated from.

We are truly all brothers and sisters.

On to the playa!

A II Z

PS- good show on PBS and the clovis point dispute. New studies are claiming that america was settled from Europe, Mediteranean, Asia and the south pacific some going back 18,000 years at the height of the last Ice Age. My Phoenician theory is also being proven true- I believed that the mayans learned how to build early pyramids from them. They are now finding the evidence.

[Glittering Clitoris]

Everyone on this thread is discriminating against me.Boo hoo. :cry:

Oh DVD, you're so cute!

You can sit on my lap and I can pet you all over.

Doesn't that sound like fun?

[theCryptofishist]

bleach

[DVD Burner]

cumming from a Glittering Clitoris, what do you think I will say?

[stuart]

I sense the sock love coming on

[tola]

I was on the playa last year and had a lovely flirtation with a really cool black dude from LA. I asked him why the brothers were not out in force and he reckoned it was the music! He also said that his black friends perceive BM as essentially a white boy's paaaty and didn't want to come. So there, you vote with your feet it would appear. More's the pity, could have done with some more of 'their' music myself! OK, be gentle with me...

[tola]

I was on the playa last year and had a lovely flirtation with a really cool black dude from LA. I asked him why the brothers were not out in force and he reckoned it was the music! He also said that his black friends perceive BM as essentially a white boy's paaaty and didn't want to come. So there, you vote with your feet it would appear. More's the pity, could have done with some more of 'their' music myself! OK, be gentle with me...

[DVD Burner]

I was on the playa last year and had a lovely flirtation with a really cool black dude from LA. I asked him why the brothers were not out in force and he reckoned it was the music! He also said that his black friends perceive BM as essentially a white boy's paaaty and didn't want to come. So there, you vote with your feet it would appear. More's the pity, could have done with some more of 'their' music myself! OK, be gentle with me...

See this is just my point. Seems that girls will go out with a black dude before they will go out with me

Thank you Glittering Clitoris, I will take very good care of you.

[calsur]

Hotspur wrote

"This has to do with what we can consider pre-history. The second issue here has to do with more recent history. For example, many black african men were shipped, via the slave trade, to the mediterranean, where Irish women who's husbands were killed when they were kicked off their land by various Brittish factions were also send. The two slave populations (african men, irish women) mixed -- and then many slaves from this area were transported to North America."

Cites, please

[DVD Burner]