Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

[Lassen Forge]

Dammit! Cannot resist when the Constitution's integrity is called into question.

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
Patrick Henry

"The citizens of the U.S. are responsible for the greatest trust ever confided to a political society"

"We base all our experiments on the capacity of mankind for self-government." James Madison

"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson

+10!! Thank you!


(Be glad your initials aren't bbs... you'd make yourself a target for that kind of talk!!!

I find it funny (this is no shit) that I take a stand, or a position, and people are willing to call me loony, or challenge me... when others make the same argument and they get a pass. Is it the name? The face? The reputation? I'd really like to know.

I'm just kind of curious about that. I make a post and someone jumps right in my shit to "correct" my thinking, yet others say the same thing... hmmm...

Anyone else notice this? Serious question.

[Trishntek]

(((((((((((((BayBridgeSue)))))))))))))

Sorry,,,, I don't have an answer,,,, sighhhh

[geospyder]

Sounds like you needs some hugs - (((((BBS)))))

[graidawg]

lets make a cuddle puddle with BBS in the middle


(((((((((((((BBS))))))))))))))

come join in it's fun

[goathead]

refuses to jump in puddle
hands BBS something she can and knows how to use
do with them as you will.

[Lassen Forge]

...

hands BBS something she can and knows how to use
...

Now THAT'S a cuddle toy a girl could love!! Interesting stock carvings...

Thanks, guys! >>swoon<<

( >>bang bang bang bang bang bang<< )

[goathead]

someone carried it a long time.

[Elderberry]

Here ia another example of why more and more people are moving to the side of stricter gun regulation.
[quote]Meanwhile, the Atlanta Journal Constitution’s Jay Bookman reports that right-wingers posting on the Free Republic website have been calling for armed counterprotests in Atlanta today. In response to a pro-labor SEIU rally, one Free Republic user anounces that counterprotesters carrying arms will attend “with the usual accoutrements.â€

[Lassen Forge]

There is a really simple way for those preferring stricter gun regulations to achieve their wish - move to Canada... or better, Europe. They have VERY tight controls on firearms there, and it would not infringe on the rights of those living here who do not wish to have their rights infringed upon.

Don't take that as a waah-waah - I live part time in Italy. There are VERY good things about living in an EU country - which is why we live there. While I don't agree with their tighter-than-hell gun control, there are plusses and minuses to every situation.

Like (going OT for a sec) Taxes. Taxes there are higher (in some instances) but you get things like free medical care, a transportation system that can get you across the continent posthaste and relatively cheap, and a social system that will not let you fail.

Of course, it IS difficult to emigrate there, because of the system-provided perqs (everyone wants the percieved freebies without paying the taxes that support them) but not impossible. And then, you get VERY tightly regulated firearm ownership (generally prohibited, or available only to the VERY wealthy or government functionaries, or the police...)

While most people I run across when dealing with firearms are upstanding, responsible citizens, not right wing kooks. I do understand some people are fearful of a populus that are armed, however there are a number of unbiased studies (darn hard to find when speaking about firearms) that crime really IS more prevalent in areas where there is strict gun control VS areas that have things like "must issue" CCW permits.

[Trishntek]

[quote="jkisha"]Here ia another example of why more and more people are moving to the side of stricter gun regulation.
[quote]Meanwhile, the Atlanta Journal Constitution’s Jay Bookman reports that right-wingers posting on the Free Republic website have been calling for armed counterprotests in Atlanta today. In response to a pro-labor SEIU rally, one Free Republic user anounces that counterprotesters carrying arms will attend “with the usual accoutrements.â€

[gyre]

[quote="jkisha"]Here ia another example of why more and more people are moving to the side of stricter gun regulation.
[quote]Meanwhile, the Atlanta Journal Constitution’s Jay Bookman reports that right-wingers posting on the Free Republic website have been calling for armed counterprotests in Atlanta today. In response to a pro-labor SEIU rally, one Free Republic user anounces that counterprotesters carrying arms will attend “with the usual accoutrements.â€

[gyre]

There is a really simple way for those preferring stricter gun regulations to achieve their wish - move to Canada... or better, Europe. They have VERY tight controls on firearms there, and it would not infringe on the rights of those living here who do not wish to have their rights infringed upon.

Don't take that as a waah-waah - I live part time in Italy. There are VERY good things about living in an EU country - which is why we live there. While I don't agree with their tighter-than-hell gun control, there are plusses and minuses to every situation.

Like (going OT for a sec) Taxes. Taxes there are higher (in some instances) but you get things like free medical care, a transportation system that can get you across the continent posthaste and relatively cheap, and a social system that will not let you fail.

Of course, it IS difficult to emigrate there, because of the system-provided perqs (everyone wants the percieved freebies without paying the taxes that support them) but not impossible. And then, you get VERY tightly regulated firearm ownership (generally prohibited, or available only to the VERY wealthy or government functionaries, or the police...)

While most people I run across when dealing with firearms are upstanding, responsible citizens, not right wing kooks. I do understand some people are fearful of a populus that are armed, however there are a number of unbiased studies (darn hard to find when speaking about firearms) that crime really IS more prevalent in areas where there is strict gun control VS areas that have things like "must issue" CCW permits.

Crimes of violence and supposedly, all crime here, has dropped dramatically since carry laws changed, if you can believe the statistics in a place with a lot of false figures.
Credit is being given to the police chief, who I recall opposed these changes.
Violent crime is noticeably down though.

I can go where I choose now.
The more dangerous the area, the more likely any citizen is regarded as probably armed, rather than a good target.
I certainly have less fear than being unarmed in the considerably safer oakland or watts.

What about the unarmed UK?
Statistics of violence against a person in Liverpool (hardly the worst area), separated from sexual offenses, are 21 per 1,000 people annually.
Is that low?
That works out to 20% of the population being a victim of violence over any ten year period.
Doesn't sound great.
If you're skilled enough at combat, you might be allowed to carry a stick and accomplish something against a knife or gun.

[Elderberry]

As mentioned above, if Thomas Jefferson is okay with an armed resitence against tyranny, then so am I.

Thomas Jefferson is a man of a different era; and, he's long dead.
JK

[Elderberry]

I am personally very happy to see the right wing come out of the closet and openly declare war on teachers, child labor laws, work safety regulations, work hour regulations, job representation, democracy and so on.

Oh my.

JK

[Elderberry]

There is a really simple way for those preferring stricter gun regulations to achieve their wish - move to Canada... or better, Europe. They have VERY tight controls on firearms there, and it would not infringe on the rights of those living here who do not wish to have their rights infringed upon.

Don't take that as a waah-waah - I live part time in Italy.

I'm glad you clarified your first statement, I thought for a minute it was going to be an "America, love it or leave it" argument.

There are VERY good things about living in an EU country - which is why we live there. While I don't agree with their tighter-than-hell gun control, there are plusses and minuses to every situation.

Like (going OT for a sec) Taxes. Taxes there are higher (in some instances) but you get things like free medical care, a transportation system that can get you across the continent posthaste and relatively cheap, and a social system that will not let you fail.

Do you think that the free public medical care, fantastic public transportation, etc. are a good thing or a bad thing?

And has anything every happened to you while living in Italy that would have been improved if you had a gun in your possession? Were you ever robbed or had any crime committed against your person that owning a gun would have prevented?

Of course, it IS difficult to emigrate there, because of the system-provided perqs (everyone wants the percieved freebies without paying the taxes that support them) but not impossible. And then, you get VERY tightly regulated firearm ownership (generally prohibited, or available only to the VERY wealthy or government functionaries, or the police...)

While most people I run across when dealing with firearms are upstanding, responsible citizens, not right wing kooks. I do understand some people are fearful of a populus that are armed, however there are a number of unbiased studies (darn hard to find when speaking about firearms) that crime really IS more prevalent in areas where there is strict gun control VS areas that have things like "must issue" CCW permits.

People are not afraid of an armed populous, the are afraid of those "kooks" owning them. And if all that is reported in the news are the right wing gun toting kooks, then it is really hurting the case for responsible gun ownership.

See above in-line for my comments and questions.

JK

[Lassen Forge]

Crimes of violence and supposedly, all crime here, has dropped dramatically since carry laws changed, if you can believe the statistics in a place with a lot of false figures.
Credit is being given to the police chief, who I recall opposed these changes.
Violent crime is noticeably down though.

I can go where I choose now.
The more dangerous the area, the more likely any citizen is regarded as probably armed, rather than a good target.
I certainly have less fear than being unarmed in the considerably safer oakland or watts.

What about the unarmed UK?
Statistics of violence against a person in Liverpool (hardly the worst area), separated from sexual offenses, are 21 per 1,000 people annually.
Is that low?
That works out to 20% of the population being a victim of violence over any ten year period.
Doesn't sound great.
If you're skilled enough at combat, you might be allowed to carry a stick and accomplish something against a knife or gun.

HEY!! I live in the wonderfully safe town of Oakland, where there IS no crime (uh, hold on, someone's trying to kick in my door...) and we have incredibly restrictive (hold on again, gotta duck from the drive by... ok, where was I? Oh yeah...) laws on registering ammunition, buying ammo, buying firearms, (Oops, hang on, someone just broke out the window of my car to steal my stereo for the 3rd time), and have all these laws keeping those bad guys from buying firearms at a gun store.

OK, all kidding aside, I live in a good part of town, and have experienced these things. And we *do* have some of the most restrictive laws against buying arms and ammo. So yeah, gun control works really well.

Britain? I wrote about this before... We went a couple years ago to London (which is a "zero gun" zone) and went to a corner shop for beer and snacks, and ended up in the middle of someone elses knife fight. Big, Nasty, Ugly people with even bigger, nastier, yuglier knives, clubs, and whatever they could grab as a weapon. Throwing bottles and cans everywhere. I was scared to shit Shelli was gonna get run thru... and we were blocked in this store. No way out.

What do I do? I reached in my purse for "ol faithful", to try to save our asses from these urban thug-uglies... then remembered I left it at home, because, YOU CAN'T LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM IN ENGLAND!!! I had... a nail file. Scumbag #1 had a 10" butcher knife and a billy club. Slimeball #2 had a pair of ice picks. POS #3 had a couple conveniently fresh broken beer bottles. Worthless #4 had this very cool skinning knife - prolly about 10-12". Fuckbats #5 & 6 were throwing whatever they could get their hands on, while #7 went after one of the clerks (who came up with a cricket bat from behind the counter - wicked toys, those - which cooled unlucky #7 right down.) The other clerk was calling their version of 911.

We eventually *did* crawl out of there, shielded by Batman and his other bud also working there (bless their hearts!) but it was a bloody awful mess looking through the closed doors the next AM. I asked them later if that ever happened before... he said "About weekly". I asked if any were armed with a gun, they said about 1 in 10. Then it hit him I was American... you know what he said?

"I envy you." I asked him why, and he replies... "I wish we could have firearms like you do there - we'd have less crime." This from the land of total gun control.

By the way, the cops DID show up - all both of them - 5 minutes later.

[Elderberry]

OK, all kidding aside, I live in a good part of town, and have experienced these things. And we *do* have some of the most restrictive laws against buying arms and ammo. So yeah, gun control works really well.

Britain? I wrote about this before... We went a couple years ago to London (which is a "zero gun" zone) and went to a corner shop for beer and snacks, and ended up in the middle of someone elses knife fight. Big, Nasty, Ugly people with even bigger, nastier, yuglier knives, clubs, and whatever they could grab as a weapon. Throwing bottles and cans everywhere. I was scared to shit Shelli was gonna get run thru... and we were blocked in this store. No way out.

What do I do? I reached in my purse for "ol faithful", to try to save our asses from these urban thug-uglies... then remembered I left it at home, because, YOU CAN'T LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM IN ENGLAND!!! I had... a nail file. Scumbag #1 had a 10" butcher knife and a billy club. Slimeball #2 had a pair of ice picks. POS #3 had a couple conveniently fresh broken beer bottles. Worthless #4 had this very cool skinning knife - prolly about 10-12". Fuckbats #5 & 6 were throwing whatever they could get their hands on, while #7 went after one of the clerks (who came up with a cricket bat from behind the counter - wicked toys, those - which cooled unlucky #7 right down.) The other clerk was calling their version of 911.

We eventually *did* crawl out of there, shielded by Batman and his other bud also working there (bless their hearts!) but it was a bloody awful mess looking through the closed doors the next AM. I asked them later if that ever happened before... he said "About weekly". I asked if any were armed with a gun, they said about 1 in 10. Then it hit him I was American... you know what he said?

"I envy you." I asked him why, and he replies... "I wish we could have firearms like you do there - we'd have less crime." This from the land of total gun control.

By the way, the cops DID show up - all both of them - 5 minutes later.

Interesting stories. I've had one home and two apartments broken into. Owning a gun would not have helped in my situation, in fact the gun probably would have been stolen along with all the other things that were taken.

I've never been the victim of any physical assault as a civilian.

It's interesting, in that I don't disagree with anything you or most others have said in this thread regarding a person's right to own firearms; and I'll repeat that I am not an adversary on this issue; so I really find it interesting that when somebody that is basically on the same side of the issue tries to ask any question regarding the pros or cons of gun ownership, it is always responded to in an adversarial way. Why is that?

Also, you didn't address my question regarding your opinion of Italy's socialized medicine, transportation, et.al.

JK

[Lassen Forge]

I'm gonna try to prune this a little bit... otherwise it's gonna get unwieldly.

...Don't take that as a waah-waah - I live part time in Italy.

I'm glad you clarified your first statement, I thought for a minute it was going to be an "America, love it or leave it" argument.

No way... I got a chuckle out of that when I read it. Part of the great thing about all this freedom is your right to believe what you wish, as is mine!

There are VERY good things about living in an EU country... free medical care, transportation system etc. etc.

Do you think that the free public medical care, fantastic public transportation, etc. are a good thing or a bad thing?

Personally I think it's a good thing. I've had firsthand experiences with the medical system there... a situation that would have cost us at least a deductable here if not a couple grand was gratis, and better (and faster) to boot. We asked the doc where the cashier was, he thought so we could get a bus pass back to town. When I said "to settle the bill" he almost fell out of his chair laughing at us "silly Americans".

Their transport system, while it is about as reliable as Amtrak, IS a lot cheaper and gets you to where you need to go. Down to small towns.

Oh yeah... a huge difference. The local police are pretty laid back, there to help. The Carbinieri (State Police), while no nonsense, are really decent, friendly, and will TALK to you as if you're a citizen, not a serf. We get flyovers at the property (we live away from town out there) from the Foresteria (kinda like a cross between the USDA and USFS here) every tuesday about 1:30 PM... I wave at them, they waggle their wings back. I think if I didn't, they'd wonder if everything is OK. It's... different.

And has anything every happened to you while living in Italy that would have been improved if you had a gun in your possession? Were you ever robbed or had any crime committed against your person that owning a gun would have prevented?

Read my London trip above. A firearm would have afforded us a means of safety against our 7 or so very dangerous and "strangers to civility" assailants. Had the shop owner had a firearm, likely they wouldn't have chosen his place for a knife fight. (That's not my observation, but the clerks at the shop.)

Italy? Hell yes - we get Chinguale (wild boar) with frack up our trees and vines, and are a threat to our safety. I'm trying to convince the local Carbinieri to issue a firearm permit (which is how I know the laws are difficult!) for "wildlife and crop management"... I have Foresteria's blessing, but that's not enough... one, I'm a foreigner, and two, my 2 (Italian citizen) neighbors have a permit. So why do I need one? (I may try to bribe him with some chinguale sausage next... ;) ) Still, it's neither cheap to do this (the permits and licensing fees and stamps are a few thousand euros) and THEN you have the firearm (with IT'S license and tax and fees etc.) AND ammo (see above).

People are not afraid of an armed populous, the are afraid of those "kooks" owning them. And if all that is reported in the news are the right wing gun toting kooks, then it is really hurting the case for responsible gun ownership.

Problem is... who defines the "kooks"? You know... to most civillians, We burners are "kooks". And while I agree there are some nutjobs on the "right" (as there are on the "left") the majority of people are decent, honest, hardowrking, and up front. Of course, the media is NOT gonna sell ad time telling blah stories about responsible gun ownership (unless it's buried back around page 42 or something) but they will with the machine-gun footage and piles of accessorized weapons and the flashy, inflaming stories about "those evil right wing gun owning nuts"...

What I'm saying (probably rather poorly) is this... Don't believe everything the media says. Imagine if you had emigrated from, hell, Iraq, followed Islam, worked your butt off, had a wife and kids and were a wonderful father and husband. Are you an "islamofascist kook"? Hell no, you're a damn proud american... but that's not how the media portrays you or your family. They use your darker skin and wife's dress and a couple rumors about how people with names like Hussein are evilmongers... to portray you as terrorists to sell their ads.

Much like they use fringe firearm owners.

Sorry, I gotta run, but we'll keep this rolling if you want.
bbs

[geospyder]

Last February we were in Tasmania. I struck up a conversation with a person at one the wineries we tasted at. Ends up he was a local LEO. He was so happy that after years (yes, years) of paper work he was finally able to obtain a hunting rifle. He also mentioned that he could not carry his service weapon while off duty. I mentioned that I do volunteer work for the local sheriff’s office and he was shocked when I told him that I could carry anytime since I had a concealed carry permit EXCEPT when I was on duty since I wasn’t a sworn officer. Strange laws.

[gyre]

It has been suggested that an nra sticker suggests a rifle owner, and might attract a burglar careful to enter while you're vacant, while the decal from the range I use, is known for carry permits and suggests you will have a gun on you when you leave and return, and suggests that other homes are more inviting.

I just have a small sticker from reno that says 'Illegal entry will result in your being shot'.

The more common approach now is home invasion or assaulting you at your door, both due to alarm systems.
In both cases, a weapon might be useful.

[can't sit still]

This is something that I doubt Thomas Jefferson envisioned.

The world's largest army

America's Hunters. The World's Largest Army.

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.
Allow me to restate that number.
Over the last two months, the eighth largest army in the world - more men under arms than Iran; more than France and Germany combined - deployed to the woods of a single American state to keep the deer population under control.
But that pales in comparison to the 750,000 who are in the woods of Pennsylvania this week. Michigan 's 700,000 hunters have now returned home. Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia , and it is literally the case that the hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest army in the world.
And that is just FOUR states (and Texas alone has more than those four combined).
The total population of registered hunters in America today ranges from 23 million to 43.7 million individuals. (Based on annual data provided by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.)
As long as the American Hunter retains his right to Bear Arms, America will forever be safe from foreign invasion of troops.
Hunting - it's not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of national security.

If you factor in all the people with combat experience, you see a very large pool of potentially dangerous people. VIVA la "dangerous people."

[Elderberry]

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.

And a lot of bad shots if you believe the statistics...less than 17% of them actually bagged a deer.

JK

[Trishntek]

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.

And a lot of bad shots if you believe the statistics...less than 17% of them actually bagged a deer.

JK

That's making a huge assumption that all of them had a shot at a deer to begin your claim.

[Elderberry]

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.

And a lot of bad shots if you believe the statistics...less than 17% of them actually bagged a deer.

JK

That's making a huge assumption that all of them had a shot at a deer to begin your claim.

It was more of a joke than a statement of truth.

JK

[gyre]

I'm told deer know when the season starts and act accordingly.

[Trishntek]

John Kisha wrote:

People are not afraid of an armed populous, the are afraid of those "kooks" owning them. And if all that is reported in the news are the right wing gun toting kooks, then it is really hurting the case for responsible gun ownership.

BBS wrote:

Problem is... who defines the "kooks"? You know... to most civillians, We burners are "kooks". And while I agree there are some nutjobs on the "right" (as there are on the "left") the majority of people are decent, honest, hardowrking, and up front. Of course, the media is NOT gonna sell ad time telling blah stories about responsible gun ownership (unless it's buried back around page 42 or something) but they will with the machine-gun footage and piles of accessorized weapons and the flashy, inflaming stories about "those evil right wing gun owning nuts"...

What I'm saying (probably rather poorly) is this... Don't believe everything the media says. Imagine if you had emigrated from, hell, Iraq, followed Islam, worked your butt off, had a wife and kids and were a wonderful father and husband. Are you an "islamofascist kook"? Hell no, you're a damn proud american... but that's not how the media portrays you or your family. They use your darker skin and wife's dress and a couple rumors about how people with names like Hussein are evilmongers... to portray you as terrorists to sell their ads.

Much like they use fringe firearm owners.

http://www.gunlaws.com/GunshotDemographics.htm
THE VICTIMS
91%: Male
80%: Black
23.5%: Were 18 21 years old (the largest age group)
53%: Would not cooperate with police to find who shot them
78%: Have criminal histories
65%: Have been arrested at least twice on drug charges
37%: Have been arrested for felony weapons charges
17%: Qualify as "career criminals"
44%: Are suspected to be "actively involved" in drug trade
80%: Whose first arrest came as a juvenile

THE SUSPECTS
97%: Minority males
91%: Black males
48%: Were 18 21 years old (the largest age group)
92%: Have criminal histories
57%: Have been arrested at least twice on drug charges
81%: Have been arrested for weapons charges
43%: Qualify as "career criminals"
65%: Are suspected of being "actively involved" in drug trade
89%: Whose first arrest came as a juvenile
92%: Cases where victim and suspect were black
31%: Shooting cases cleared by the Wilmington Police Department


All Baltimore gunshot homicide victims in 2007


All Baltimore Black gunshot homicide victims in 2007


All Baltimore White gunshot homicide victims in 2007

Public Enemy Number One Defined:
Many of these aren't "gun deaths" at all, they are "war deaths."
It's the endless fruitless government-run War On Some Drugs.
It's a declared war. Combatants in the war are killing each other.

End the war, declare a truce, call for an armistice—
Watch a large part of the "gun problem" fade away.
But that would hurt the effort to disarm the public,
and would end many of the jobs programs fraudulently
labelled the war on drugs, so don't expect it to happen
any time soon.

[gyre]

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.

And a lot of bad shots if you believe the statistics...less than 17% of them actually bagged a deer.

JK

I can't go hunting.

I just can't drink that much alcohol.

[Elderberry]

THE VICTIMS
91%: Male
80%: Black
23.5%: Were 18 21 years old (the largest age group)
53%: Would not cooperate with police to find who shot them
78%: Have criminal histories
65%: Have been arrested at least twice on drug charges
37%: Have been arrested for felony weapons charges
17%: Qualify as "career criminals"
44%: Are suspected to be "actively involved" in drug trade
80%: Whose first arrest came as a juvenile

THE SUSPECTS
97%: Minority males
91%: Black males
48%: Were 18 21 years old (the largest age group)
92%: Have criminal histories
57%: Have been arrested at least twice on drug charges
81%: Have been arrested for weapons charges
43%: Qualify as "career criminals"
65%: Are suspected of being "actively involved" in drug trade
89%: Whose first arrest came as a juvenile
92%: Cases where victim and suspect were black
31%: Shooting cases cleared by the Wilmington Police Department

Well there you go. So obviously there isn't much reason for white people to even own guns, as most of the crimes involving guns involve non whites.

JK

[Elderberry]

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.

And a lot of bad shots if you believe the statistics...less than 17% of them actually bagged a deer.

JK

I can't go hunting.

I just can't drink that much alcohol.

JK

[can't sit still]

trishntek, your stats show 92% of victims and assailants were black. Several years ago, there was a study released in London showing that 80% of all crime in London was committed by blacks under 24 years of age. There was a big outcry because the study was released,,, not because the crimes were committed. In this country, there is NO tolerance to talk about the huge disparity of blacks committing crime. There was talk in Australia;
http://ourdecline.com/usa/racewar.htm This caused a shitstorm. I posted this link on the e-playa; http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=9522
The thread came to a screeching halt.
We all can read. We're all aware. We don't talk about it. There are claims that discussion of black crime causes harm to the self-perception in the black community. I suspect that the inner city knows very well about the participants in crime.