Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

[Trishntek]

I know it is in bad taste,,,, and believe me,,,, I do not give a whit what color anyone's skin is,,,, having said that,,,,

The Aforementioned statistics are a Dark Secret?

[graidawg]

the stricter gun control and more organised drug trade has definately made the uk a less safe place to live. I live in croydon and not 200 yards from where i lived a guy was stabbed to death at a bus queue for commenting a the perpetrator jumped the line.
All (and i do mean ALL) of my friends and work colleques have been stabbed or shot at least once - i'm a bit more fortunate ive never been stabbed or shot (well except in a duel but thats a different story)
My ex girlfriend was stabbed in the back walking home one evening, why? she doesn't no she wasnt robbed or beaten up just stabbed and left to bleed on the floor she never even saw her assailant.
would more legal guns be an improvement? hell yes
concealed weopons, hell yes
armed police? we already have them (yes we do 1 in 5 bobbies on the beat has a concealed weopon apparentely)
the saying if you make guns criminal only criminals will have guns has been proved to be true - more guns on the streets now than when i was a kid and now it is very difficult to get a licence

[Lassen Forge]

Thanks, Graidawg... Yeesh, where do you work?? Everyone shot or stabbed? Yikes! (Remind me to stay away from your neighborhood)

I didn't mention race in my "london adventure"... Just as a glancing side note... all of the "participants" save my hunny and I and one of the clerks - were emigrees. The "aggreived individuals" (read knife weilding criminals) were in this case all emigrees from, um, "the continent on the opposite side of the equator from London". (Not Australia or Antarctica)

By the way - if you've ever seen wild animals fighting to the death... that was *exactly* the look in these guy's eyes. Scary as HELL.

People wonder why the re are groups like "England for the English"... too bad they're portrayed as right wing bigoted supremicist elitist nutjobs by those who are not unlike the "aggrevied individuals" above - new emigrees, primarily from the Middle East or Africa, who live on the dole and through, um, sub-legal pursuits and careers.

We have friends there (SW, near Staines) who are considering moving - likely to the continent - because according to them, "the Britain (they) grew up in is gone, replaced by a homogeny of people that neither want or try to be British, but instead try to change Britain into a hodgepodge of what they left". And as they tell me, almost every time we talk, is they're succeeding. Sad.

Now returning to "The Post Toasties M4 Comedy Shootout"... before we get further OT!

[Elderberry]

I'm not sure Los Angeles is much different, it's just a matter of keeping up with the immigrant population du jour being singled out as making the city worse this time.

JK

[graidawg]

Thanks, Graidawg... Yeesh, where do you work?? Everyone shot or stabbed? Yikes! (Remind me to stay away from your neighborhood)

I didn't mention race in my "london adventure"... Just as a glancing side note... all of the "participants" save my hunny and I and one of the clerks - were emigrees. The "aggreived individuals" (read knife weilding criminals) were in this case all emigrees from, um, "the continent on the opposite side of the equator from London". (Not Australia or Antarctica)

By the way - if you've ever seen wild animals fighting to the death... that was *exactly* the look in these guy's eyes. Scary as HELL.

People wonder why the re are groups like "England for the English"... too bad they're portrayed as right wing bigoted supremicist elitist nutjobs by those who are not unlike the "aggrevied individuals" above - new emigrees, primarily from the Middle East or Africa, who live on the dole and through, um, sub-legal pursuits and careers.

We have friends there (SW, near Staines) who are considering moving - likely to the continent - because according to them, "the Britain (they) grew up in is gone, replaced by a homogeny of people that neither want or try to be British, but instead try to change Britain into a hodgepodge of what they left". And as they tell me, almost every time we talk, is they're succeeding. Sad.

Now returning to "The Post Toasties M4 Comedy Shootout"... before we get further OT!

BBS I live in in SE london

I may have mentioned i just don't go out in Croydon on a satyrday night, I was walking home from dropping a friend off at the train station and i noticed the police have set up a temporary station in the centre of town ther where about 40 uniformed officers in sight - last time i saw that was outside a football ground for a grudge match andthey do this every weekend.
My biggest regret is not emigrating to Nevada with ny perents 20 years ago if i had i would probably be in a tent when DPW turned up to start building BRC

[Lassen Forge]

Oh hells... we were there during one of the run up matches at Chelsea FC... Ya know, while it was, um, "exciting" I didn't feel as endangered as I did that night just up the road. Maybe I was desensitized, or maybe it was brits cutting loose rather than foreigners fighting a turf war over land that's not even theirs... (I gotta say, as insane as the football match was, I had a fraqing BLAST, and (don't laugh) would do it again... is that strange, or what???)

(Damn, now *I* sound like an England for English nut!! (giggles) )

Our closest friends there live out in Lower Sunbury, (OK, no SA jokes, please!!!), another somewhere either in Ealing or Hammersmith (it gets confusing which starts where!!) and our other buds in Fulham. I guess that makes us somewhat westsiders??? Tho my stepdaughter lives up north in Hempstead... I could SO live up there... (tho the commute to BRC would SUQ!!)... anyway, I've driven through parts of town (thanx to TomTom) that make the worst parts of Oakland feel safe. Oooh yeah.

Where were we? Oh yeah, a 1/3 brick of 22 ammo for $ 13, and fuel for almost 4 to the gallon. Plinking ammo at $40 a thousand - I remember under a penny a shot, wish I had stocked up then!! Gas - sure, it's not cheap, but it beats the hell out of Britain. WOrst gas prices ANYWHERE.

[gyre]

Grai, can you carry the pepperblaster there?
I've started carrying them.

What about stun guns?
Batons?
Knives?

A few spare lager lads?

I'm guessing a 10mm is right out?


What did you think of the new Holmes series?
I noticed some gunfire.
I really like it so far.

[Sail Man]

???

Know what scares me? American citizens thinking they need a "gun license" to own a firearm. Yep, better have big brother's blessing to let them allow you to enjoy your guaranteed rights.

Yet kids somehow have been brainwasahed to think their rights are not rights but their nanny's permission. And the tyrant loves that they OWN their subjects... an d their rights.

Sorry, but you can no longer use the nations oxygen. You need our permission to use it. Don't like it, don't breathe.

sorry for the rant, but I heard this today from a stepkid, and it really DID make me ill. and the kid didn't understand why I thought our rights were really rights, and somehow thought the govt had every right to withhold them from us.

Is it all over? are we now owned by our govrenment???

I was at the Dr the other day when he asked me if I needed a license to Open Carry, which i do almost everywhere I go. He was surprised when I told him state law allows anybody legally possessing a handgun to open carry as long as you don't violate PFZ's, pistol free zones. I have a CPL so most PFZ's are open to me but I can't carry concealed, I must open carry, such as a hospital. I know he is a 2A advocate from previous visits, in fact we talked at length about a 100 yr old Remington he was awaiting from on online gun auction (gunbrokers.com?). He doesn't have a CPL, yet but it was good to teach another 2A advocate about Open Carry in our state. In fact, I have run across other CPL holders while oc'ing that weren't aware of the rights either. Education is always important in regards to our rights and laws.

[graidawg]

Grai, can you carry the pepperblaster there?
I've started carrying them.

What about stun guns?
Batons?
Knives?

A few spare lager lads?

I'm guessing a 10mm is right out?


What did you think of the new Holmes series?
I noticed some gunfire.
I really like it so far.

gyre we cant carry penknives

sherlock rocked was tres' cool

[gyre]

No tear gas either?

[Sail Man]

It's anyone's right to not want to own a firearm, or to want to restrict THEIR OWN access to one... but it is not their right to curtail the freedoms of others. Is that crazy??? Gods, I hope not.

Here's the point, again. Yes, you are an American. Yes, you do have the right (given in the constitution) to own firearms. HOWEVER your are not the only American weighing in on this issue...like CITY FOLK, that feel that the need to own firearms has become trumped by the amount of violent crime they are experiencing in their cities. (I am not arguing the validity of this statement, it is irrelevant.) These CITY FOLK, which by the way, I believe outnumber the COUNTRY FOLK, already think that the COUNTRY FOLK are a bit backward and a slight bit nuts for their opinion on gun ownership.

When some of the COUNTRY FOLK start ranting on about their rights to own guns in their over-passionate but less than rational sounding diatribes, all the COUNTRY FOLK are doing is giving the CITY FOLK MORE AMMUNITION to use against the COUNTRY FOLK in trying to restrict their rights to own guns.

BTW, I'm one of the CITY FOLK that doesn't want to restrict your rights, but some rants I read here do give me pause to reconsider my position.

I hope I am making sense, I'm just trying to alert you to how important framing your arguments are to winning them.

JK

Wow JK, that almost comes across like a challenge.

Even though I live in the Detroit metro area, this redneck was borne and raised in the sticks (that would be the country) and I much prefer driving my pick-em-up truck on 2-tracks (rutted roads in the middle on nowhere often referred to as seasonal roads around these here parts) Yeehaw! over highways any old day.
We had guns growing up as did most of my friends, and shooting/hunting was and is very common.

Now, lest you think that I'm gonna debunk your guess that there are more city folks vs country folk, here is a link to a % I ran across, yes I am aware its 10 yrs old but I'm trying to whip this out (heh heh heh) between ambolance runs city vs rural population amounts and here is a link to % of gun owners rural vs urban rural vs urban gun ownership

So, in a sense I have actually supported your argument. But let me tell you, when the SHTF, and the city fold flee the zombie horde's of sheeple out into rural area's, they will not be welcomed warmly, if ya know what I mean Vern We know the woods better then the city folk and I can assure you that if the SHTF rurally, we most def. won't be heading into any cities, just deeper in them thar woods.

[youtube][/youtube]

[gyre]

The gallup poll was 1000 people.

Sail, is concealed carry illegal where you are?
Open carry is technically legal here, but not intended.
Those using service holsters seem to be presumed to be legal and not questioned...usually.
There are some big advantages to concealed carry when dealing with crime.

[Elderberry]

It's anyone's right to not want to own a firearm, or to want to restrict THEIR OWN access to one... but it is not their right to curtail the freedoms of others. Is that crazy??? Gods, I hope not.

Here's the point, again. Yes, you are an American. Yes, you do have the right (given in the constitution) to own firearms. HOWEVER your are not the only American weighing in on this issue...like CITY FOLK, that feel that the need to own firearms has become trumped by the amount of violent crime they are experiencing in their cities. (I am not arguing the validity of this statement, it is irrelevant.) These CITY FOLK, which by the way, I believe outnumber the COUNTRY FOLK, already think that the COUNTRY FOLK are a bit backward and a slight bit nuts for their opinion on gun ownership.

When some of the COUNTRY FOLK start ranting on about their rights to own guns in their over-passionate but less than rational sounding diatribes, all the COUNTRY FOLK are doing is giving the CITY FOLK MORE AMMUNITION to use against the COUNTRY FOLK in trying to restrict their rights to own guns.

BTW, I'm one of the CITY FOLK that doesn't want to restrict your rights, but some rants I read here do give me pause to reconsider my position.

I hope I am making sense, I'm just trying to alert you to how important framing your arguments are to winning them.

JK

Wow JK, that almost comes across like a challenge.

Even though I live in the Detroit metro area, this redneck was borne and raised in the sticks (that would be the country) and I much prefer driving my pick-em-up truck on 2-tracks (rutted roads in the middle on nowhere often referred to as seasonal roads around these here parts) Yeehaw! over highways any old day.
We had guns growing up as did most of my friends, and shooting/hunting was and is very common.

Now, lest you think that I'm gonna debunk your guess that there are more city folks vs country folk, here is a link to a % I ran across, yes I am aware its 10 yrs old but I'm trying to whip this out (heh heh heh) between ambolance runs city vs rural population amounts and here is a link to % of gun owners rural vs urban rural vs urban gun ownership

So, in a sense I have actually supported your argument. But let me tell you, when the SHTF, and the city fold flee the zombie horde's of sheeple out into rural area's, they will not be welcomed warmly, if ya know what I mean Vern We know the woods better then the city folk and I can assure you that if the SHTF rurally, we most def. won't be heading into any cities, just deeper in them thar woods.

Nothing I said in that post was meant as a challenge in any way. All i was trying to say is that the words a person uses are important in swaying opinion, period.

JK

[can't sit still]

Just came in mail;
Wyoming Legislature Approves Permitless Carry Bill

[Trishntek]

Just came in mail;
Wyoming Legislature Approves Permitless Carry Bill

Makes me proud of my nativity.

[Montanarchist]

???

Know what scares me? American citizens thinking they need a "gun license" to own a firearm. Yep, better have big brother's blessing to let them allow you to enjoy your guaranteed rights.

Yet kids somehow have been brainwasahed to think their rights are not rights but their nanny's permission. And the tyrant loves that they OWN their subjects... an d their rights.

Sorry, but you can no longer use the nations oxygen. You need our permission to use it. Don't like it, don't breathe.

sorry for the rant, but I heard this today from a stepkid, and it really DID make me ill. and the kid didn't understand why I thought our rights were really rights, and somehow thought the govt had every right to withhold them from us.

Is it all over? are we now owned by our govrenment???

I was at the Dr the other day when he asked me if I needed a license to Open Carry, which i do almost everywhere I go. He was surprised when I told him state law allows anybody legally possessing a handgun to open carry as long as you don't violate PFZ's, pistol free zones. I have a CPL so most PFZ's are open to me but I can't carry concealed, I must open carry, such as a hospital. I know he is a 2A advocate from previous visits, in fact we talked at length about a 100 yr old Remington he was awaiting from on online gun auction (gunbrokers.com?). He doesn't have a CPL, yet but it was good to teach another 2A advocate about Open Carry in our state. In fact, I have run across other CPL holders while oc'ing that weren't aware of the rights either. Education is always important in regards to our rights and laws.

In Montana you can legally conceal WITHOUT a permit in over 99% of the state.

[geospyder]

I have a CPL so most PFZ's are open to me but I can't carry concealed,...

If you have a CPL (CCW in Nevada) why can't you carry concealed? ...or are you just referring to the PFZs?

[Lassen Forge]

Just came in mail;
Wyoming Legislature Approves Permitless Carry Bill

In Montana you can legally conceal WITHOUT a permit in over 99% of the state.

Susie... smiles... at this.

Well, in MY state it is either as easy as going to the sheriff and asking for a CCW or is essentially impossible to get one, depending on which county you live in. In rural areas firearms are considered a god given right; in urban areas they are considered evil and should be banished. Strangely - it's in urban areas where sheeple are shunned or worse for being a responsible gun owner that most (armed) criminals come to practice their trade.

Send the same scumbag to a rural county in OUR state... well... he won't last long there before he decides to move along.

Strangely - as areas that were once rural (and pro gun) have begun to urbanize, they start to develop this "guns are evil" mentality. The town I grew up in did this - which IMO is sad. And strangely enough - crime increases as the political correctness of being a firearm owner decreases.

I still remember the short time I was in Arizona and it's at the time VERY cool open carry laws - we used to have pistols in our purses with holsters that you could see the top edge of the butt of the pistol therein... making them NOT concealed.

[Montanarchist]

Just came in mail;
Wyoming Legislature Approves Permitless Carry Bill

In Montana you can legally conceal WITHOUT a permit in over 99% of the state.

Susie... smiles... at this.

Well, in MY state it is either as easy as going to the sheriff and asking for a CCW or is essentially impossible to get one, depending on which county you live in. In rural areas firearms are considered a god given right; in urban areas they are considered evil and should be banished. Strangely - it's in urban areas where sheeple are shunned or worse for being a responsible gun owner that most (armed) criminals come to practice their trade.

Send the same scumbag to a rural county in OUR state... well... he won't last long there before he decides to move along.

Strangely - as areas that were once rural (and pro gun) have begun to urbanize, they start to develop this "guns are evil" mentality. The town I grew up in did this - which IMO is sad. And strangely enough - crime increases as the political correctness of being a firearm owner decreases.

I still remember the short time I was in Arizona and it's at the time VERY cool open carry laws - we used to have pistols in our purses with holsters that you could see the top edge of the butt of the pistol therein... making them NOT concealed.

In Montana a gun in a purse/briefcase/fanny pack/glove box isn't considered concealed.

[goathead]

Here's the point, again. Yes, you are an American. Yes, you do have the right (given in the constitution) to own firearms. HOWEVER your are not the only American weighing in on this issue...like CITY FOLK, that feel that the need to own firearms has become trumped by the amount of violent crime they are experiencing in their cities. (I am not arguing the validity of this statement, it is irrelevant.) These CITY FOLK, which by the way, I believe outnumber the COUNTRY FOLK, already think that the COUNTRY FOLK are a bit backward and a slight bit nuts for their opinion on gun ownership.

When some of the COUNTRY FOLK start ranting on about their rights to own guns in their over-passionate but less than rational sounding diatribes, all the COUNTRY FOLK are doing is giving the CITY FOLK MORE AMMUNITION to use against the COUNTRY FOLK in trying to restrict their rights to own guns.

BTW, I'm one of the CITY FOLK that doesn't want to restrict your rights, but some rants I read here do give me pause to reconsider my position.

I hope I am making sense, I'm just trying to alert you to how important framing your arguments are to winning them.

JK

Evening JK
One of the things I have always wondered about, being a "country folk", is why city folk worry more about legal firearms then about real crime? It seems to me that firearms are just a symptom of the real problems you have in the city.

Is it the feel good factor of doing something just because it sounds good even though all it does is harrass honest people? I suppose honest people are easier to make kowtow then it is to deal with gang bangers.

[Elderberry]

Here's the point, again. Yes, you are an American. Yes, you do have the right (given in the constitution) to own firearms. HOWEVER your are not the only American weighing in on this issue...like CITY FOLK, that feel that the need to own firearms has become trumped by the amount of violent crime they are experiencing in their cities. (I am not arguing the validity of this statement, it is irrelevant.) These CITY FOLK, which by the way, I believe outnumber the COUNTRY FOLK, already think that the COUNTRY FOLK are a bit backward and a slight bit nuts for their opinion on gun ownership.

When some of the COUNTRY FOLK start ranting on about their rights to own guns in their over-passionate but less than rational sounding diatribes, all the COUNTRY FOLK are doing is giving the CITY FOLK MORE AMMUNITION to use against the COUNTRY FOLK in trying to restrict their rights to own guns.

BTW, I'm one of the CITY FOLK that doesn't want to restrict your rights, but some rants I read here do give me pause to reconsider my position.

I hope I am making sense, I'm just trying to alert you to how important framing your arguments are to winning them.

JK

Evening JK
One of the things I have always wondered about, being a "country folk", is why city folk worry more about legal firearms then about real crime? It seems to me that firearms are just a symptom of the real problems you have in the city.

Is it the feel good factor of doing something just because it sounds good even though all it does is harrass honest people? I suppose honest people are easier to make kowtow then it is to deal with gang bangers.

Hey there my friend. All excellent and insightful questions.

I don't really have any answers when it comes to the motivations of either 'country folk' or 'city folk', though I tend to believe their intentions are both honorable.

I do tend to feel the concerns about gun control for people living in large cities are driven by crime and fear, and probably wrongly believing that banning guns would make the cities safer.

I also believe that the life-style of rural populations are more closely tied to hunting, farming, survival, etc. where gun ownership is considered a necessity.

So that leads me to feel that whatever would need to be done, if anything, to solve the dilemma would need to be different for rural areas than for densely populated or crime ridden areas.

[gyre]

Why?

Crime is m0re similar than people want to think in rural areas.

In my experience, citizens are prosecuted more than criminals, who rarely show up for court.

[Trishntek]

To me it is simply misdirected responses to crime. The crime is done by people and not their weapons. Officials seem to feel they have to do something to appease the masses. Whether there truly is a demand for it or not, well intended law makers tend to diminish the choices for the common man in pursuit of denying options for the criminal. The unintended consequence is the common man loses liberty while the criminal, who couldn't care about law in general finds a way to perpetuate their activities. The more laws created, the more criminals exist.

[gyre]

When a criminal is arrested, they immediately move and are not seen again until the next arrest.
They system doesn't deal with this.
Or witness intimidation.

Honest people, on the other hand, stay in one place and are in trouble if caught up in the system.

[Elderberry]

To me it is simply misdirected responses to crime. The crime is done by people and not their weapons. Officials seem to feel they have to do something to appease the masses. Whether there truly is a demand for it or not, well intended law makers tend to diminish the choices for the common man in pursuit of denying options for the criminal. The unintended consequence is the common man loses liberty while the criminal, who couldn't care about law in general finds a way to perpetuate their activities. The more laws created, the more criminals exist.

Hmmm... Makes sense, this thinking reminds me of how we might have gotten The Patriot Act.

JK

[can't sit still]

Comparing city to country. Living in the country, one is surrounded by Mother Nature. Mother nature has little tolerance or support for non-producers. The city, being more artificial, has more opportunities for predation by non-producers. The parasites need a big herd of providers to support them.
Imagine a New York mugger set down in an Iowa cornfield.

[Trishntek]

Comparing city to country. Living in the country, one is surrounded by Mother Nature. Mother nature has little tolerance or support for non-producers. The city, being more artificial, has more opportunities for predation by non-producers. The parasites need a big herd of providers to support them.
Imagine a New York mugger set down in an Iowa cornfield.

Reminds me of a couple of guys from San Angelo TX who came to WY to spend the winter working for a rancher. We became good friends and found out they "wanted to experience a real winter". Well,,, if you were in the Rocky Mountain region in the winter of '78-79, you know it was a fucking cold, windy, longggg winter. They thought they were country boys,,,, until they were faced with living 7 miles from the nearest publicly maintained road, living in a 16'x16' cabin, a double seater outhouse and the only water was a hole in the ice over a stream and arctic-like conditions for 3 full months. They survived! But I think it gave them a whole new understanding of what country living is all about.

They were heading back to TX by March.

[cowboyangel]

Comparing city to country. Living in the country, one is surrounded by Mother Nature. Mother nature has little tolerance or support for non-producers. The city, being more artificial, has more opportunities for predation by non-producers. The parasites need a big herd of providers to support them.
Imagine a New York mugger set down in an Iowa cornfield. :lol:

Reminds me of a couple of guys from San Angelo TX who came to WY to spend the winter working for a rancher. We became good friends and found out they "wanted to experience a real winter". Well,,, if you were in the Rocky Mountain region in the winter of '78-79, you know it was a fucking cold, windy, longggg winter. They thought they were country boys,,,, until they were faced with living 7 miles from the nearest publicly maintained road, living in a 16'x16' cabin, a double seater outhouse and the only water was a hole in the ice over a stream and arctic-like conditions for 3 full months. They survived! But I think it gave them a whole new understanding of what country living is all about.

They were heading back to TX by March.

That's like climbing a big mountain. (which I've done a bunch of times-Denali, Aconcagua, Popo, Shasta ) You've gotta come prepared. Food, fuel, creature comforts. It can be done in a way that the hardships are limited. Still, I would agree, it's tough.

[graidawg]

Grai, can you carry the pepperblaster there?
I've started carrying them.

What about stun guns?
Batons?
Knives?

A few spare lager lads?

I'm guessing a 10mm is right out?


What did you think of the new Holmes series?
I noticed some gunfire.


Holmes was cool, though if the police feel like being bastards (which they frequently do) they can nick you for carrying any kind of blade (anything of any size) stun guns are completely illegal and would get you in a lot of trouble, same for pepper sprays, a 10mm mm what? and the lager alds are as likely to go for me as anyone i may want to sic 'em on
My only thought is to carry a heavy walking stick with a silver handle then if anyone at all approaches me beat them to death with it, say i was in fear of my life, citing the sun newpaper which made me believe everyone under the age of 90 is carrying either a gun or a knife and wants to kill em for my mobilephone/trainers/2.37 change in my pocket or jusr for the hell of it.

I dont think that would avoid jail time though
I really like it so far.

[gyre]

Tear gas is prohibited?!
Amazing.

Virtually unregulated here if you're over 18.
Only place I can't carry it is a courtroom, and perhaps california.