What do i really need to bring to Bman

[PurpleKoosh]

I just have one question for you, Koosh: Of the 190+ posts you've written, how many were actually useful? To other people, I mean.

1. I put two hearing-impaired Burners in contact with one another, so one could advise the other about the effects dust might have on hearing aids.
2. I worked with someone having trouble with the new DMV pre-registration process.
3. I gave a specific reference for a playa directory site RobbiDobbs mentioned in passing.
4. I directed someone to the Kidsville website for better information than I could give on bringing an infant.
5. I corrected someone's impression of which large-scale Mutant Vehicles have been asked not to return, backing that information up with a link to the DMV's Afterburn report. (Said link is still in my .sig, btw.)
6. I directed someone to Flipside's hompage after said person asked what it was.
7. I pointed someone at an alternative to trying to build a dome.
8. I had a discussion lasting several messages with someone who was trying to help an MS patient get to the playa, recommending various ways both inside and outside of the organization to acquire a ticket.

And that's only going back as far as April.

Yes, I post fluff, too. But not, as a rule, in reply to serious questions. STUPID questions, on the other hand....

[Captain Goddammit]

Oh man, slammed on the carpet! Nice.

[technopatra]

Couple of questions for everyone:

1) When you were a newbie, did anyone attack you for asking questions? How did it affect your planning or experience?

2) Can you think of a time when you did something that was ill-considered on the playa, and had to have someone help you out? How did that affect your planning or experience?

3) Have you taken any time to question your own motivations with your posts? Do you really think you can help people see the light by attacking them? Are you just trying to save yourself the future aggravation of dealing with them?

4) Amidst all the rhetoric of being self-reliant on the playa, have you considered that these exact questions, whether stated once or repeatedly, are an attempt to prepare and do just that?

5) I know that many of the folks here have dealt with and continue to deal with folks who perhaps have no business in the desert. But how is it up to you to decide who those people are before they even get on the playa? Do you really think you can make this judgement based on conversations here?

I have to wonder how much responsibility you are taking for your own experience when you react so bitterly to some simple questions. Didn't you ask any when you were new? So what if someone else isn't as clued in as you may have been. People learn by asking, acting, and dealing with the consequences of their actions. I can not understand why some folks, esp the ones who I know are super-cool in person, seem to want to deny folks their own process in this.

I am not ashamed to say that it took me more than one year to really get Burning Man. Fortunately, I had the tenacity to keep trying. More fortunately, I didn't have anyone telling me I was a useless moron for not getting it "right" the first time. I had to fail at some things before I could succeed.

You never really know what someone has to offer until you see them in action. If I hadn't been able to keep an open mind despite the multitudes of posts that I personally felt were fucktarded, there wouldn't even be an eplaya. Folks I thought were going to be the biggest pains in my ass have ended up being some of my favorite people ever.

Just think about what wonderful things you may be crushing along with someone's spirit. That's all I ask.

[Chai Guy]

1) When you were a newbie, did anyone attack you for asking questions? How did it affect your planning or experience?

No one ever "attacked" me, but like every where else in the world there are some rules to be followed and when I've violated those rules (unwritten or in the TOS) I've been firmly but gently put in my place. I often see people on the REAL playa being treated much more harshly for their indescretions (like being arrested by LEO or getting an earfull, or giving an earfull to a Ranger). So while I agree that we should "chill out" more, some responsibility has to fall on the clueless newbie who fails to even read the Survival Guide before coming on here.

2) Can you think of a time when you did something that was ill-considered on the playa, and had to have someone help you out? How did that affect your planning or experience?

It humbled me, for sure, it also made me realize that the playa is a CYOA environment (cover your own ass). I've also saved a lot of asses out there and received nary a thank you from a lot of them, oh well - such is life in Big Bad Black Rock City.

3) Have you taken any time to question your own motivations with your posts? Do you really think you can help people see the light by attacking them? Are you just trying to save yourself the future aggravation of dealing with them?

I guess I'm a little unclear on the word "attack", is calling someone a "fuckwit" because they failed to read the TOS or Survival Guide an "attack"? How about when someone asks for the dates on Burning Man when the dates are clearly printed out on the main page in one of the larger fonts as well as being posted in numerous other places? How about telling someone to RTFT (read the fucking ticket) for any question that could be answered simply by doing just that?

4) Amidst all the rhetoric of being self-reliant on the playa, have you considered that these exact questions, whether stated once or repeatedly, are an attempt to prepare and do just that?

Indeed, however I can't help shake the feeling that regardless of our answer, they are going to fuck it up anyway. As Forrest Gump once said "Stupid is as stupid does"

5) I know that many of the folks here have dealt with and continue to deal with folks who perhaps have no business in the desert. But how is it up to you to decide who those people are before they even get on the playa? Do you really think you can make this judgement based on conversations here?

If your initial response to a question or problem is to shout "HELP" then I seriously doubt your ability to survive in the desert, yes.

[theav8tar]

Yes, I post fluff, too. But not, as a rule, in reply to serious questions. STUPID questions, on the other hand....

Koosh, you are clearly very involved in the e-playa community, and have made some great contributions to a variety of discussions. I respect your opinion when you have something constructive to say. I apologize for the mudslinging.

My point was that you've clearly expressed the opinion that their number of posts is somehow a measure of a burner's credibility. You berated me for having a "BRAND NEW E-PLAYA ACCOUNT", then angrily declared me a "clueless... holier-than-thou n00b". I resent that, especially since I was only trying to help someone with less experience than me (BTW, I have been going to Burning Man for years, so don't call me a "n00b"). That's the issue here: Having more experience (on and off the playa) than someone doesn't entitle you to belittle them. Frankly, I find it bizarre that anyone would want to do anything but help new people get the info they need so they can have a great first time.

The second part of this whole thing is calling the question "stupid" in the first place. I think asking for a recommended checklist of what to bring to your first Burning Man is perfectly legitimate. To talk down to them because you think otherwise... that's stupid. Maybe that person would have turned out to be a great friend, and now you'll never know because you turned him off to the whole thing.

Just think about what wonderful things you may be crushing along with someone's spirit. That's all I ask.

Thank you so much technopatra for explaining this so clearly, and having the tact to avoid mudslinging... I guess that's why you're the admin and I'm not! Those are some great questions, too. Thinking back to my first time, it was the friendliness and comraderie I perceived in burners that made me want to check it out. If I had seen this thread at the time, I'm not so sure I would have gone... I think that's my cue to get off this stupid message board...

Peace everybody.

[PurpleKoosh]

Koosh, you are clearly very involved in the e-playa community, and have made some great contributions to a variety of discussions. I respect your opinion when you have something constructive to say. I apologize for the mudslinging.

Thank you.

You berated me for having a "BRAND NEW E-PLAYA ACCOUNT", then angrily declared me a "clueless... holier-than-thou n00b".

You're conflating my statements, and in the process missing the point I was trying to make. I have no problem with someone being a clueless n00b - on the ePlaya or anywhere else. I may have a limited amount of patience with their cluelessness, and I may not always be able to avoid expressing my frustration, but they're every bit as entitled to be here as anyone else. I have a problem with people who appear to have created an ePlaya account for the express purpose of acting holier-than-thou and declaring the One True Way of the ePlaya - which is exactly how your first post came across. (Frankly, anyone who comes into a venue I frequent spouting OTW is going to push my buttons, whether it's their first post or their 5000th.)

The second part of this whole thing is calling the question "stupid" in the first place. I think asking for a recommended checklist of what to bring to your first Burning Man is perfectly legitimate.

I never meant to imply otherwise. What I was calling stupid in this case was your "What have you done for ePlaya lately?" crack. And you've taken the smackdown I laid on you with grace, so we're good there.

Maybe that person would have turned out to be a great friend, and now you'll never know because you turned him off to the whole thing.

Actually, Wildeone and I have made our peace in one of the other threads. And I do have to thank Technopatra for getting me to step back, take a breath, and THINK about how I was coming across. And once I had done that, and with Tancorix's post helping me to focus on just why I was getting so frustrated, rather than the simple fact that I was frustrated, I was able to better convey that to Wildeone in turn, and we were able to move on from there.

[Bob]

I blame the design of the board and the main website more than anything else -- poor routing & linking back to the 80% of queries that should already be covered elsewhere than the BBS, an architecture that places no value on caching, organizing, cataloging, and intelligently searching both main site and the years worth of contributions of past eplaya participants, and instead places priority on chat-room-style yammering of the moment by pushing the most-recent threads to the top.

That, and the mistaken anthropomorphic impression that the desert is inherently friendly.

However, the behavior and culture that has developed here on the eplaya is still not substantially different from the rest of the online world -- newbies occasionally getting a hard time is an unavoidable part of any discussion forum -- except that on Usenet there are seldom any mother hens to protect all the poor little peeping baby birds, and there isn't always an FAQ. Burning Man has elements of the profane, the ironic, and the sarcastic, and the eplaya should be no different.

The eplaya began as a discussion board and contact-the-org vehicle for an event which is (or used to be) extremely hard on people -- not as a substitute for the Survival Guide or the volumes of information and links on the main website. I, for one, have no intention of being a PR rep and Kool-Aid server for a Christian-revival stadium event where all you're expected to do is show up with a ticket, a silly-ass stoned grin on your face, a "WWLD?" temporary tattoo on your forehead, and then all sing the Barney Show theme.

Now, back to before this thread was hijacked by the anti-goon squad.

ObTopic: Bring Midol, and plenty of it. And help me wipe my ass, my typing hands are cramped.

[technopatra]

That's the issue here: Having more experience (on and off the playa) than someone doesn't entitle you to belittle them. Frankly, I find it bizarre that anyone would want to do anything but help new people get the info they need so they can have a great first time.

Thank you! I prefer to try to keep other folks from having to figure everything out the hard way, like I did. I wonder with a slightly nauseous awe at the intensity of the reactions to newbie posts. They sometimes remind me of movies I've seen of English boarding schools, where all the new kids are pummeled and humiliated their first year, they suffer in pain and silence, but they can't wait to get the paddle out when it's their turn to wield it.

Why get stuck in this cycle of egotistical macho crap? (Yes, it comes off as macho, regardless of the gender of the poster.) Wouldn't it be an even further evolution to have the grace to spare other people this?

Do yo really think that people can learn best by belittlement? In my experience it only closes a person's mind to you.

[Bob]

<plonk>

[technopatra]

However, the behavior and culture that has developed here on the eplaya is still not substantially different from the rest of the online world -- newbies occasionally getting a hard time is an unavoidable part of any discussion forum -- except that on Usenet there are seldom any mother hens to protect all the poor little peeping baby birds, and there isn't always an FAQ.

Cluck cluck.

I have this crazy idea that we can eventually shake the current standards of online behavior.

[technopatra]

However, the behavior and culture that has developed here on the eplaya is still not substantially different from the rest of the online world -- newbies occasionally getting a hard time is an unavoidable part of any discussion forum -- except that on Usenet there are seldom any mother hens to protect all the poor little peeping baby birds, and there isn't always an FAQ.

Cluck cluck.

I have this crazy idea that we can eventually shake the current standards of online behavior.

[Tancorix]

<rant> One of the core requirements for anyone attending BM is to read the survival guide. This is the primary tool for the org to communicate BLM permit stips and other vital info. When it comes to NOT reading the sruvival guide, I have no issue what-so-ever with giving ANYONE grief for not reading it. The future of the event literally rides on it. So...if someone posts a question and it's blatantly obvious that they didn't read the guide, coddling them is not going to do a bit of good. In fact doing so could be putting another nail in the coffin for the event we love so much.

Being nice has it's place...but on the core requirements...NO. I love this event too damn much to see people fuck it up by being too lazy to read the damn survival guide. It's not an unreasonable requirement, it's not hard to do...no matter how I look at it I simply can't see any valid excuse to not do it. </rant>

[technopatra]

I in no way advocate skipping the Survival Guide. I am one of the publishers of the Survival Guide, remember? If a clueless newbie question comes up, feel free to tell them to read it. Give them a link. Ignore them altogether. Why do you have to call them a fuckwit? That has nothing to do with them - that is you making a decision to express a sense of outrage, and it comes across as an unprovoked smack in the face.

It's this pharisaical brow-beating that I would like to see diminish. Maybe they are in fact a potential yahoo, but you just don't know, and the assumptions you make are not to your or their benefit.

It could be that they heard about the eplaya before visiting the main site (that does happen) or it could be that they were confused by the ton of info on the site. The way some of the info is presented can give someone who is unfamiliar with the culture a sense of contradiction. Maybe they have accessibilty issues that our site does not resolve.

I would argue that their very presence here is an indication that they know there is more to Burning Man than a big party, but that's an assumption on my part.


(p.s. - I am with Bob on the wayfinding & indexing issues on the main site, but we have a larger plan for serving through Plone so we can employ a decent content management system. The bulk of the site are templated static pages, and they are a bitch to manage & update en masse. We recently introduced CSS as a step to ready us, but there is much backend work that needs to be done before they'll let my user experience peers & I at the info architecture.)

[stuart]

Couple of questions for everyone:

1) When you were a newbie, did anyone attack you for asking questions? How did it affect your planning or experience?

2) Can you think of a time when you did something that was ill-considered on the playa, and had to have someone help you out? How did that affect your planning or experience?

3) Have you taken any time to question your own motivations with your posts? Do you really think you can help people see the light by attacking them? Are you just trying to save yourself the future aggravation of dealing with them?

4) Amidst all the rhetoric of being self-reliant on the playa, have you considered that these exact questions, whether stated once or repeatedly, are an attempt to prepare and do just that?

5) I know that many of the folks here have dealt with and continue to deal with folks who perhaps have no business in the desert. But how is it up to you to decide who those people are before they even get on the playa? Do you really think you can make this judgement based on conversations here?

I have to wonder how much responsibility you are taking for your own experience when you react so bitterly to some simple questions. Didn't you ask any when you were new? So what if someone else isn't as clued in as you may have been. People learn by asking, acting, and dealing with the consequences of their actions. I can not understand why some folks, esp the ones who I know are super-cool in person, seem to want to deny folks their own process in this.

I am not ashamed to say that it took me more than one year to really get Burning Man. Fortunately, I had the tenacity to keep trying. More fortunately, I didn't have anyone telling me I was a useless moron for not getting it "right" the first time. I had to fail at some things before I could succeed.

You never really know what someone has to offer until you see them in action. If I hadn't been able to keep an open mind despite the multitudes of posts that I personally felt were fucktarded, there wouldn't even be an eplaya. Folks I thought were going to be the biggest pains in my ass have ended up being some of my favorite people ever.

Just think about what wonderful things you may be crushing along with someone's spirit. That's all I ask.

1. when I was an eplaya newbie I was attacked. It had no effect on my planning for BM. It did bum me out though


2. No. That is, I have done ill considered things but they did not require the assistance of others in order to get out of the whole. It had no effect on my planning for BM. It did bum me out though

3. yes, no, no


4. yes, although they are not always an indicator of a positive result.


5. It's not. In a few cases, absolutely.

[technopatra]

The eplaya began as a discussion board and contact-the-org vehicle for an event which is (or used to be) extremely hard on people -- not as a substitute for the Survival Guide or the volumes of information and links on the main website.

Yes it did, then it evolved into a place where the key Burning Man staff were so browbeaten that they stopped coming.

So then it was a free-for-all, with some basic administration by Emily and the occasional posts from Andie as the last bravest Project rep.

We had to look at it when we were forced to replace the bbs tool (the old one was no longer freeware), and we saw a greater potential. We see it as a foyer to the Burning Man community. You can come in, look around, chat with some folks, and hopefully create a relationship that can be taken offline. You can learn about Burning Man, contribute your ideas, get some help, ask some questions, get something off your chest, or just come here to feel included. The vision for the epaya is broader than just supporting the event in Nevada, and will hopefully outlast it.

We do consider it a secondary source of information that is on the website, or at least another avenue to that info. Is it our intention to republish andy thing here? No of course not. But if someone is asking and someone else is willing to answer, explain to me the harm in that?

I, for one, have no intention of being a PR rep and Kool-Aid server.... Barney Show theme.

I am simply asking you to consider coming down from the bell tower and stop sniping at innocent people for having the audacity to wander through "your" courtyard. As always, it is your choice.

[stuart]

I prefer to try to keep other folks from having to figure everything out the hard way, like I did.

do you not feel your high barrier to entry helped shape you? Do you not feel it has helped to foster a sustainable appreciation of the event? How do you think your attitude/perspective would be different if you were given someone else's step by step guide? There are an inumerable number of ways to ride the burning man ride. I find a lot of the joy comes in inventing my own.

[technopatra]

I prefer to try to keep other folks from having to figure everything out the hard way, like I did.

do you not feel your high barrier to entry helped shape you? Do you not feel it has helped to foster a sustainable appreciation of the event? How do you think your attitude/perspective would be different if you were given someone else's step by step guide? There are an inumerable number of ways to ride the burning man ride. I find a lot of the joy comes in inventing my own.

Good questions. Not really. I feel it was the assistance I received that shaped me more than the barriers that made me require that assistance.

I'd been on my own since I was a teenager, and had to do everything for myself. The closest I had come to being involved in a community was hanging out in a bar 4 nights a week. So for me being somewhere where folks wanted to help me before I was even able to articulate the request was mind-blowing.

Case in point, my first year we did a parachute structure. It, of course, wanted to blow away, and I and others in my camp spent a fair amount of time just holding the damn thing down. the fact that some other strangers walked up to me and just started helping us idiots while they could've been skipping down the playa was amazing to me.

I didn't volunteer until my second year, and it was getting directly involved that gave me a sustainable appreciation for the event. Not being a brilliant artist or hardy construction worker myself, I finally found a way to contribute via the tech teams, then my continued association with the community (incl the Project staff) opened up my creative flow.

As to the question of waht would've happened if I'd have been given someone else's step-by-step guide...well, I was. My campmates gave me checklist and enouraged me to use it. And I followed it. And it kept me from being a total moron but I still learned the hard way that you have to at least revise everything for yourself and that improvisation is almost as important as preparation.

I was also directed to the website, but didn't read much more than the directions. I don't even remember what it looked like in '98. I wasn't receiving the JRS and my campmates & I were almost all newbies and didn't know any better. I didn't know there was anything to know, you know?

So had someone told me "look, you really need to read the whole thing" I probably would have done so and had more of a clue. If someone told me "you should read the whole thing you fucking loser asshole" I probably would not have come at all.

OK to check my own motivations for a minute, upon rereading my reply it's pretty clear why this is an issue for me. I was a desperately lonely person back then and I feel that knowing this community improved my life 500%. I worry that all the newbie-stomping is denying someone else's chance at this.

First there was kindness in the face of cluelessnes, and that kindness inspired me to contribute. Through contribution came community, and my interactions with that community helped me figure out who I am and what I have to offer the world. I have the kind of friends and support that I always dreamed of having, and finally feel cared for. I don't give all that credit to Burning Man, but a chunk of it, certainly.

So maybe my following that first checklist wasn't such a bad thing.

[affinity]

Technopatra:

I am ALWAYS moved by vulnerability and I loved hearing your story.

Personally I continue to be stunned by the generosity of Burners. I was in a very minor car accident yesterday and the first word out of the other drivers mouth was "Are you okay, were you hurt?" Not.. "you jerk, why didn't you see me coming". When I replied that it was my fault she responded with "As long as no one was hurt".

We were both fine, and as you know I was recently gifted a wonderful piece of Schwag, which I was wearing. Then she asked "Will I see you on the Playa this summer?" Then we had a little "Burner" chat...

I am always sad that the EPlaya does not always reflect this generosity of spirit, it sometimes seems that the lack of face to face contact allows people to be less than kind, and certainly lacking patience with redundant questions.

All newbies do not have the skill to wade through the web site and are excited and want to be seen.

I vote for generosity.

[PurpleKoosh]

OK to check my own motivations for a minute, upon rereading my reply it's pretty clear why this is an issue for me. I was a desperately lonely person back then and I feel that knowing this community improved my life 500%.

Which, in turn, is getting me to think more about why it was an issue for me. I'm preaching with the zeal of a recent convert, ya see....

I've floated through my life dependently and codependently, relying upon - and expecting - the people around me to save my ass when I fucked up. Burning Man is the first place where I've ever truly taken responsibility for myself, because my life literally depends upon it. Seeing someone behaving in a fashion that reminds me of how I used to be HURTS - and scares me, when I stop to consider how little it would take to slip back into my old patterns.

So my reactions were largely motivated by fear...which is a fucked-up way to live a life, I know. :-/

[theCryptofishist]

I am always sad that the EPlaya does not always reflect this generosity of spirit, it sometimes seems that the lack of face to face contact allows people to be less than kind, and certainly lacking patience with redundant questions.

I wonder if that may not be two sides of the same coin. If you are exceedingly generous with members of your community, maybe you guard the boundaries of membership very tightly. Everyone on the playa has already made a trip and paid for a ticket (one way or another) so is presumed to be a member in good standing. But anyone can join a computer bulliten board. (BTW, I would agree that the behavior in question is pretty standard for the anonymity of the internet.)
Some of the nastiest conversations I've overheard at Burning Man or sattellite events concerned "Bliss Bunnys" and they were almost chilling. The worst was a Ranger's ignorant condemnation of someone very apparently mentally ill as a parasite. It left a really bad taste in my mouth after my first burn. I think "Insies/Outsies" is an instinctual human game and it would be surprising if somehow our community sidestepped it completely.

[theCryptofishist]

Seeing someone behaving in a fashion that reminds me of how I used to be HURTS - and scares me, when I stop to consider how little it would take to slip back into my old patterns.

So my reactions were largely motivated by fear...which is a fucked-up way to live a life, I know. :-/

Sometimes you have to be a bit of a hard-ass when you first change your behavior--to make sure you don't slip back. Change is hard.

[stuart]

If someone told me "you should read the whole thing you fucking loser asshole" I probably would not have come at all.

what do you think motivates people to respond with that kind of vitriol?

If you are exceedingly generous with members of your community, maybe you guard the boundaries of membership very tightly.

ooooh, there is something very appealing brewing here. Can the converse also be said to be true?

it perhaps explains my hesitation to expand the membership of my camp.

[theCryptofishist]

ooooh, there is something very appealing brewing here. Can the converse also be said to be true?

I would think so. If friendship doesn't cost much, why not have a lot? Sort of like the k to K continuum of care of young. I imagine that it's more complicated thant that, but it certainly remains as a potentially useful tool to examine connections. And we've all met those hippies extreamely generous with other people's stuff.

[honeyfire]

Okay, i'm painting a target on my chest here:

I've been active on the e-playa for not even three weeks.
I have less than 2 dozen posts.
Every one of them is either information or at least partially praise.
I'm on another bbs where there's a poster who has 2000! posts, almost all of which are flames or fluff.
I'll take quantity over quality any day of the week.
so
would people for fucks sake stop fucking assuming that people who ask questions haven't read the fucking guide pages!?!
I've read the entire freakin' things, some pages many times over, for the past several years running and there's still info i'd like to have that's not there.

Yes, yes, people can cite all sorts of threads/questions posted by people who didn't look in the guides, that's been made ostentatiously clear, thank you.
But could people please not assume it every time and slap people in the chops with the "read the survival guide" fish when they ask anything?
This is the Q&A forum, for pete's sake!

Thank you very kindly, Technopatra (tres cool name, btw), for suggesting that people be a little more sharing with their usefull comments as well as their not-so-much ones.

Okay, i'm done rantin' -n- ravin'.
I have donned my raincoat, the basket of tomatoes is right there, go ape...

[sparkletarte]

Another greener chiming in here...

I've read the guide for this year and the past couple ones too (green but keen). Some of the questions that have been irking people are clearly answered on the website, and some aren't. I would get frustrated too with people asking questions that are answered in the guide- that's why there's a guide. Some of the answers given are flippant, however I think they sometimes come across as harsher than they are meant because this is the typed word after all and it doesn't convey much except words.

I notice the same thing on other boards I post on. New people get torn up or appear to get torn up, even though they may not be. The method to madness is almost identical to other boards. That said, it doesn't mean we have to be the same as other boards- Burning Man isn't like anything else, why not have the boards be the same way?

When I was new to posting (not here) I thought I was getting shit, but the longer I posted the more I realized I wasn't. When I came here, because of my other board experiences I already had an understanding of the need to introduce myself on a board and how to communicate. Perhaps some of the new folks here are also new to message boards and don't have the etiquitte down yet.

Since the eplaya has been reorganized I find it much harder to find the info I'm looking for- the old set up was more defined as far as categories go. That may be why there are so many repeat questions. I appreciate that a lot of work was put into the new format, however I do find it harder to navigate to find the info I need, so I imagine other new people have the same issue.

I would like to suggest making a sticky on one of the boards (this one would be good as this is where the new folks will come first, I'd guess) for an introductions thread so that new people see that right away. Perhaps that will encourage them to introduce themselves rather than jump in right away with the questions. This way we'll get to know each other a bit before we start making smart or stupid comments.

[Stormy]

If someone told me "you should read the whole thing you fucking loser asshole" I probably would not have come at all.

what do you think motivates people to respond with that kind of vitriol?

Well from what I've studied in psychology and seen in schoolyards, it looks like basic bullying to me. If child A calls child B a name, A hopes to gain status with the other kids. Also A will (momentarily) feel like less of a loser, because hey, they aren't as stupid as B.

[technopatra]

Man I love you guys! Introspective as I like to think I am, you always get me thinking of basic, accepted, or rote things in a new way. And I adore you for being willing and able to carry on discussions like these.

Affinity - thank you for the great story. I love it when folks recognize my BM pendant, too. It's like a not-so-secret handshake.

PurpleKoosh - thank you for sharing such an intimate moment here. I am with Affinity on the vulnerability thing - it's so difficult for so many of us to open up that I cherish that as the gift it is. I have the same reaction you do when you see someone who is how you used to be. My attitude was there specifically to mask a deep, unfulfilled desire to be taken care of, and an intense sense of betrayal for the world that wasn't doing it for me - and it kills me when I recognize that pain in others. when I see a self-destructive tough girl with too much makeup and chips for epaulettes I never know whether I want to tell her everything is going to be ok or sucker-punch her and run the other direction at the fastest possible speed. I don't even want to be reminded of what it felt like to be her.

Regardless, I think you are a total rock star for finding courage to stand on your own two feet. I know a few people who could learn much by your example.

Stuart & Crypto - you guys have a downright magical ability to get me to completely reconsider something by means of a simple question or observation.

I am not sure what motivates folks to react so strongly. I tend to think all negativity is based in fear. Some theories:
-PK shared her perspective, and that might be true of others. Or we may have had interactions with dependent/codependent people in other parts of our lives, so seeing other people repeat those behaviors, (or what we interpret as those behaviors) especially in the place where we feel we have personally evolved, pushes buttons we may not even know we have.
-Even tho a vast majority of Burners, imo, are pretty cool, the negative interactions we have all had with yahoos makes us sometimes go overboard to try to prevent more of them. We feel a sense of duty to protect what we have and defend the people we know, perhaps to the exclusion of all others. Tancorix's point about stupid behavior being a threat to the event ( which I agree with to some extent) is a good example.
-Crypto has a great point about human nature. On some level, I believe we all want to be better people. Better than who we think we are, and better than other people around us. We may not be able to dismiss the fact that we simply feel an ingrained sense of competition, be it natural or learned.
-Some folks just get their jollies by riling other folks up. Makes 'em feel powerful to manipulate others into apoplexy. A variation of Stormy's bully theory.

Sparkletarte - great idea about making the intro thread sticky. Will do.

Honeyfire - (look who's talking about great names!)

[Guest]

ACCORDING TO GODFUCKS LAW...I realize that by posting Nazi here attempting to use its thread ending quality it will negate the effort... (but i am trying)

I would like it if all of you vetrans and newbies alike stop the bantering.. (what are you people bored or what?) I didn't come to ask the "stupid" question out of retardedness or lack of reading the Bman survival guide.... I had already read it twice actually.... I Just wanted to get someone who had a large, detailed list of things they were bringing to compare it to what i had... I found my list and surprisingly already had 90% of the things on it packed inside my tent (which is set up in the living room, my daughter slept in it last night... fun) I am in no way a nebie to camping, traveling or life.. so if you would all get off the bandwagon of bitching at one another (wait did you hear that.... a nebie posted another STUPID FUCKING QUESTION, quick everyone he needs to be taught a lesson.... )

[technopatra]

Wildeone, I encourage you to re-read this last several posts. This conversation has evolved into a really interesting one about online behavior, and issue that is of interest to many and far exceeds the limits of the initial issues re: your posts.

I have learned that the most tempestuous starts can result in the deepest, most engaging discussions. Please do not disrespect the desire of others to follow this through.

(and btw, the Godwin's Law thing clearly does not apply on the eplaya)

[Bob]

Aspirin, too. 500 tab bottle, generic type.