Japan 8.9 earthquake and Tsunami

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:08 am

Mt. Fuji is sleeping, not dormant. It still could wipe out a lot of territory.
A six is not a big one in Japan, we rocked and rolled through that size a few times when I was there. You get complacent, which will kill you. Even with all the cultural acclimation and preparedness in Japan, I bet a few people didn't head for high ground when the sirens went off.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:16 am

The big worry now is the plutonium that is escaping. There is a lot of debate as to just how poisonous it really is;
http://russp.org/BLC-3.html

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:18 am

AntiM wrote:Mt. Fuji is sleeping, not dormant. It still could wipe out a lot of territory.
A six is not a big one in Japan, we rocked and rolled through that size a few times when I was there. You get complacent, which will kill you. Even with all the cultural acclimation and preparedness in Japan, I bet a few people didn't head for high ground when the sirens went off.

reading of the thousands of bodies found washed ashore, I'd say you're right.
So many live in the "It won't happen to me" world.........

so sad.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:20 am

I had not heard actual plutonium was escaping. dang.
At least, short of a huge explosion, it's heavy enough not to make it to far......

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:27 am

ygmir wrote:
AntiM wrote:Mt. Fuji is sleeping, not dormant. It still could wipe out a lot of territory.
A six is not a big one in Japan, we rocked and rolled through that size a few times when I was there. You get complacent, which will kill you. Even with all the cultural acclimation and preparedness in Japan, I bet a few people didn't head for high ground when the sirens went off.
reading of the thousands of bodies found washed ashore, I'd say you're right.
So many live in the "It won't happen to me" world.........

so sad.

The problem with that region is it is flat, and on reclaimed ground. For some, there was no high ground. Even higher stories in a building were not sufficient. The elderly, who may have been home alone while the family was at school or work, could not get away. People were caught in their cars. Even people living miles inland were killed. But I once ignored a tsunami warning in my apartment on the bay, because I didn't know the siren for earthquake and tsunami were different. No one else was leaving. I bet it is different now.
That little fishing port I lived on for a while in Yokosuka, and it wasn't much more than a few city blocks, has been filled in and is covered with buildings now. They're toast if they get water rising. The school where you go for earthquake evac is on low ground, just blocks off the ocean. Not much good at all.
The house I rented when I came back to Japan was on high ground. Tsunami safe. We would have slid down the hill in the earthquake. Yeah. I felt safer at home than going down the hill and up another to get the the school which ws our evac area.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:50 pm

I lived in a coastal town that got hit by the Jan 1982 storms, flash floods, debris flows, landslides, etc. Watched both my pickup trucks get swept a couple hundred feet downslope. Volunteer firehouse was across the street, right in the flood plain, and got three feet of water and mud. Chief had some foresight and managed to get the pump trucks and major equipment parked in a safe spot up the hill before the big shit let loose. Good thing, because they had to respond to quite a few incidents. Couple propane tanks exploded, some houses in the flood plains were undermined or floated off their foundations. No deaths in my area, but heard rumors of a couple heart attacks, and everyone was pretty traumatized. Digging out took weeks, and the National Guard. So, thank your local firefighter, EMT, line worker, part-time soldier, et al.

Major Krash · Post by **Major Krash** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:56 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
Monkeypoo wrote:
Well, I was gonna say.... At least the Japanese Whalers who were out in the
oceans illegally hunting and killing whales were spared from the earthquake
and tsunami...

Hate to be a negative Nancy, but you don't know that. Many ships were in the harbors and were wrecked. Plus you don't know how many kin they might have lost.

You have a point about their Kin, however the Sea Shepherd web site discusses how the Whaling Fleet was "1 week out" when the tsunami hit (there was a Sea Shepherd Team monitoring the Dolphin Harvesting Operation in one of the cities hit. they gave a first-hand report of the devistation, and praised the locals who helped them despite their own troubles).

Major Krash · Post by **Major Krash** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:00 pm

ygmir wrote:
AntiM wrote:Mt. Fuji is sleeping, not dormant. It still could wipe out a lot of territory.
A six is not a big one in Japan, we rocked and rolled through that size a few times when I was there. You get complacent, which will kill you. Even with all the cultural acclimation and preparedness in Japan, I bet a few people didn't head for high ground when the sirens went off.
reading of the thousands of bodies found washed ashore, I'd say you're right.
So many live in the "It won't happen to me" world.........

so sad.

remember, there was an estimated 5-8 minutes between the start of the earthquake (which lasted over 2 minutes), and the first tsunami wave...how far could you get, after freeing any loved ones, with streets possibly blocked and crowds fleeing, in 3-6 minutes?

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:03 pm

we'll find out in about 24-36 hours as the west coast panics and there is the clusterfuck from hell trying to get up and over the mountains...

seriously.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:03 pm

Yes, the safest place for a boat or ship to be would be out to sea, not knocking about in the harbor.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:09 pm

don't be coy, dougly...

head for the hills while you still can...

Oakland is going to be a Shit Show.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:10 pm

***WELCOME TO THE I-80 PARKING LOT, WE ARE ALL OUT OF IODINE TABLETS, PLEASE ENJOY THE MUSIC WHILE YOU WAIT***

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:49 pm

why Oakland any more than Sacramento, or Reno?

if you're talking fallout.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:03 pm

sometimes the panic is scarier than the actual threat...we are not nearly as dignified as the japanese..

more like george costanza in a fire...

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:25 pm

One thing we don't need is over-romanticizing of Japanese citizens/culture/technology etc. Pretty obvious that they've made some pretty bad choices in engineering and land zoning, albeit some good ones.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:32 pm

Like building on the coastline?

Major Krash · Post by **Major Krash** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:12 pm

you pick your home, and take you chances...I don't have to worry about tsunamis, and earthquakes and tornadoes are unlikely, but wild fires are a yearly threat, where hardly a year goes by without someone burning to death. In the winter avalanches are a real possibility in some areas I go to, and I have felt a snow pack settle more than once. Fortunately I live in the land of gravity, so we do not need coal or nuclear power plants, but I am under threat if the dam breaks...which one did a few decades ago and wiped out entire towns. And then there are the wolves, bears, and mountain lions...all of which I have stared down.

yeah, some bad choices were made. The real question is, did anyone learn anything?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:15 pm

they just announced they're pulling the 50 workers who've been trying to contain the fires at the nuke plants out.......the guess is the radiation is to high.
The question:
who's doing what?

no one there?

dang.........

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:31 pm

And given how densely populated Japan is, there wasn't much wiggle room...

Major Krash · Post by **Major Krash** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:33 pm

"A spike in radiation levels at Japan's stricken Fukushima nuclear plant forces workers to suspend their operations, a government spokesman says."

"On Wednesday, Japanese Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said at a news briefing that workers at Fukushima had been withdrawn following the rise in radiation levels. It is believed that about 50 employees had been working at the plant to try to stabilise its four reactors.

Mr Edano also said that the radiation levels were now falling: from 1,000 millisieverts on Wednesday morning to 600-800.

But that was still more than average, Mr Edano said, adding that "the workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now. Because of the radiation risk, we are on standby.""

1000, 800, 600...."more than average"....typical Japanese understatement!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:20 pm

The big worry now is the plutonium that is escaping. There is a lot of debate as to just how poisonous it really is

What's even more dangerous is the fact that too, too many people sit passively by and allow the media circus of know-nothings to feed their shit into your living room. And people without question suck up to it as if it were the biggest tit on the media sow.

There is NO fucking plutonium escaping. The reactors in question are not breeder reactors. Granted, there is a problem. A BIG fucking problem. But pulling your hair out of your silly little sky-is-falling head doesn't doesn't change the facts.

I think the only real meltdown here is people's inability to do their own unbiased research on the issue. Start here for a primer and then follow the rabbit hole....

You might start by familiarizing yourself with the issues at hand:

http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/f ... planation/

and

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/section.aspx?fid=802

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:07 am

Check out my new blog
http://truthphalanx.com

Just spoke with my brother in-law who's a plant manager at a nuclear station in NC. He said that we didn't have anything to worry about in the west coast, unless one of Fukushima's plants melts, which he said was very unlikely. He said that he is privy to inside news info on the industry. He did say that yes, he carries the bias of the industry and that if there was any significant change he'd contact us. I'll post here.

Fukushima has a history of safety failures. See Greenpeace. Google Helen Caldicot and see http://www.gregpalast.com/

The nuclear industry is rift with safety violations and deceit..but trust us right? Just like we trusted BP. See my damn blog....

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:28 am

ygmir wrote:they just announced they're pulling the 50 workers who've been trying to contain the fires at the nuke plants out.......the guess is the radiation is to high.
The question:
who's doing what?

no one there?

dang.........

They are back, and they are certainly aware that they are on a suicide mission to save their belovd homeland.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:36 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:
ygmir wrote:they just announced they're pulling the 50 workers who've been trying to contain the fires at the nuke plants out.......the guess is the radiation is to high.
The question:
who's doing what?

no one there?

dang.........
They are back, and they are certainly aware that they are on a suicide mission to save their belovd homeland.

wow.........how, selfless...I know the Japanese culture promotes that sort of thing. But, still.
I hope, they are recognized, successful or not, for the sacrifice they are making.

I bet the CEO and management of the power company are not included in this crew...........

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:49 am

ygmir wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:
ygmir wrote:they just announced they're pulling the 50 workers who've been trying to contain the fires at the nuke plants out.......the guess is the radiation is to high.
The question:
who's doing what?

no one there?

dang.........
They are back, and they are certainly aware that they are on a suicide mission to save their belovd homeland.
wow.........how, selfless...I know the Japanese culture promotes that sort of thing.

Yeah, so does ours. All that "I regret that I have but one life to give for the good of my country" stuff. That heroism that they promote in war. When England was the Empire on Which the Sun Never Set, they had it. I think it could well be hard-wired into our behavoir as a possible responce to some problems, especially for young men.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:51 pm

The nuclear industry is rift with safety violations and deceit..but trust us right?

But Cowboy, you bring up an interesting point. I suspect that even with his bias you probably have every reason to trust him don't you? I mean one-on-one he has no reason or purpose to lie or deceive you does he?

Yet, were he to parrot verbatim his same assurances to others out there who then called him a liar/stooge/collaborator/deceiver/etc. I suspect you might become mildly annoyed.

I don't mean to brag or pull my I-know-better-than-you card but my experience in the nuclear field is extensive. It has been my career all of my adult life. I'm fortunate to work with some of the most brilliant people in the world in a field that most find exotic, esoteric and - to some - frightening. I can't in my adult life ever remember a single individual in my career who ever intentionally lied, misrepresented or conspired to keep secrets around problems, flaws, weaknesses or accidents related to reactors or accelerators. Lumping them together as this consolidated brethren of corporate conspirators does nothing to bring truth to the fore.

There are problems. Greenpeace has a damn good record in documenting a good number of them. There are a lot of other anti-nuke groups who have done their homework and are asking the hard questions. There are some out there who have been egregious in their misrepresentation of the facts and outright lies. There are also people in the field who are bringing the same myriad issues to the front. I think at this juncture what's being asked by people like myself and others I know is that we try to bridle the impulse to panic based on information that is... questionable.

I think part of the reason that there's a slow feed of information about what's happening is that engineers, technicians and other science folk just don't know and they don't like to make guess and then put them out there as truths or facts. It doesn't work that way and it shouldn't work that way. It's easy to pop off an idea or opinion off the top of your head like every other blond CNN hotty reporter and be wrong. or off-base. But the only thing that serves is to feed the fear and bolster the viewer rankings.

(oops, lunch break is over...)

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:23 pm

Back to flipping burgers.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:43 pm

Tom, great post. I get by on a technicality. I said that the worry was that plutonium was escaping. I didn't say that it WAS escaping

I have no way of knowing if the reactor truly contains MOX fuel or does not contain MOX fuel.
The explosion pictures didn't look right to me. Too much particulate for a H + O2. I have doubts that a sufficient quantity of H2 would accumulate. I also see no reason for the introduction of H2 into air to be exothermic.... as claimed by the article. We all know what happens when you throw a chunk of sodium into water but, that's a different reaction. The explosion didn't look like steam either.
I don't see a satisfactory explanation for the explosion.
I have to agree with Isotopia's opinion. We know that GB used VERY dirty fuel in their oil-fired generating plants. I can't remember the exact fuel but, it was loaded with gender-bender chemicals. Who knows what the Japanese used for rods. I understand all the containment devices and procedures. There was just too much latent heat. I understand that there is no comparison to Chernobyl. It had no containment building. I understand that the fissiles are never exposed to ambient air. But, things are screwed up pretty badly.

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:20 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Check out my new blog
http://truthphalanx.com

Just spoke with my brother in-law who's a plant manager at a nuclear station in NC. He said that we didn't have anything to worry about in the west coast, unless one of Fukushima's plants melts, which he said was very unlikely. He said that he is privy to inside news info on the industry. He did say that yes, he carries the bias of the industry and that if there was any significant change he'd contact us. I'll post here.

Fukushima has a history of safety failures. See Greenpeace. Google Helen Caldicot and see http://www.gregpalast.com/

The nuclear industry is rift with safety violations and deceit..but trust us right? Just like we trusted BP. See my damn blog....

Near Lake Norman?? We used to joke that the sparkly stuff in the Lake was from the nuclear reactor.

Here's an interesting site called the Radiation Network: http://www.radiationnetwork.com/

This morning Calif was at 19. Now we are at 34. No, wait. Now we are at 24. Fuck, who knows?? My daughter (age 25) is freaking. She's ordered organic kelp from the internet for all of us. Our drug stores are all out of iodide (or is it iodine??). I don't have a TV and I'm glad. The media has a horrible way of exaggerating and scaring us, just for the sake of their ratings. If I wanna hear what's going on, I'll come here. Let me know if I need to move to England or Iceland. Thanks.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:09 pm

I just need to share. My late wife's hometown is just down the road from Sendai, not too far. I still have friends and family there. I know all too well the sweet little villages full of sincere courageous folk, that have been devastated. It's rough for me right now...