Japan 8.9 earthquake and Tsunami

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:11 pm

Still as stupidly banal as ever.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:43 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:I just need to share. My late wife's hometown is just down the road from Sendai, not too far. I still have friends and family there. I know all too well the sweet little villages full of sincere courageous folk, that have been devastated. It's rough for me right now...

dang Dougly!
have you any news of their fate?
Hang in there pal.

Post by **Eric** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:51 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:I just need to share. My late wife's hometown is just down the road from Sendai, not too far. I still have friends and family there. I know all too well the sweet little villages full of sincere courageous folk, that have been devastated. It's rough for me right now...

oh god UD. I hope you hear something from them.

Kinetik V · Post by **Kinetik V** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:04 pm

Hmmm...I read the posts..I smell bullshit. When they say not to panic, that's the time to go fucking hysterical.

Tell me if the problem isn't so bad why is France sending pretty much every fucking Air France jet in Asia to Tokyo to fly their people out? As a country with extensive nuclear facilities...what do they know that we don't that prompted them to send their national fleet in...with iodine pills on board for anyone who might stay behind?

And what about Reactor 3 with it's plutonium fuel mix? And the spent fuel rod storage supposedly separated by boron that had to get jostled in the quake and when the tsunami slammed the place... it won't take much to get a critical reaction there that would be like someone is playing with the demon core again...just this time the reaction will be a lot nastier...

And what about the US Navy finding radiation and pulling their ships back and the 50 mile restriction for all US military personnel to keep them away from the plant? Or what about the monitoring network that is predicting the first plume of radiation will hit California late Friday....

The bottom line for me is someone's lying to cover their ass. The people who know are sending their families packing. When the rats jump out of the ship it's time to go folks and what I'm seeing is the rats are fucking jumping. And why are radiation monitors closest to the site being data blocked? And why is our very own government adding supplemental radiation monitors up and down the West Coast? Precautionary? Yeah, right.

Even those in academia have been known to get hoodwinked and lulled into a false sense of security only to have it bite them in the ass in the end. Now if you'll excuse me I'll make sure and have my potassium iodide ready to go...because in the end when you don't know who to trust, you take care of your family and yourself the best way you can....
</soapbox>

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:25 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:I just need to share. My late wife's hometown is just down the road from Sendai, not too far. I still have friends and family there. I know all too well the sweet little villages full of sincere courageous folk, that have been devastated. It's rough for me right now...

Ugly, Do I remember seeing pics of your wife and you on a vacation years ago? If not, please excuse me, it all runs together.

Iso, your input in interesting and valuable and I for one appreciate it. As for cantsitstil, I would expect nothing less then for him to be worried for all of us!! and to want to warn us!!

Anti-m.. You live in an area that was radiated pretty good when the US tested bombs, Utah down wind from Nevada. While you lived in Japan did you ever see or hear about any places that where still highly radioactive from the two bombs we dropped in the war.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:53 pm

Isotopia wrote:
The nuclear industry is rift with safety violations and deceit..but trust us right?
But Cowboy, you bring up an interesting point. I suspect that even with his bias you probably have every reason to trust him don't you? I mean one-on-one he has no reason or purpose to lie or deceive you does he?

Yet, were he to parrot verbatim his same assurances to others out there who then called him a liar/stooge/collaborator/deceiver/etc. I suspect you might become mildly annoyed.

I don't mean to brag or pull my I-know-better-than-you card but my experience in the nuclear field is extensive. It has been my career all of my adult life. I'm fortunate to work with some of the most brilliant people in the world in a field that most find exotic, esoteric and - to some - frightening. I can't in my adult life ever remember a single individual in my career who ever intentionally lied, misrepresented or conspired to keep secrets around problems, flaws, weaknesses or accidents related to reactors or accelerators. Lumping them together as this consolidated brethren of corporate conspirators does nothing to bring truth to the fore.

There are problems. Greenpeace has a damn good record in documenting a good number of them. There are a lot of other anti-nuke groups who have done their homework and are asking the hard questions. There are some out there who have been egregious in their misrepresentation of the facts and outright lies. There are also people in the field who are bringing the same myriad issues to the front. I think at this juncture what's being asked by people like myself and others I know is that we try to bridle the impulse to panic based on information that is... questionable.

I think part of the reason that there's a slow feed of information about what's happening is that engineers, technicians and other science folk just don't know and they don't like to make guess and then put them out there as truths or facts. It doesn't work that way and it shouldn't work that way. It's easy to pop off an idea or opinion off the top of your head like every other blond CNN hotty reporter and be wrong. or off-base. But the only thing that serves is to feed the fear and bolster the viewer rankings.

(oops, lunch break is over...)

Iso, I don't think the problems I'm pointing to have to do with the technicians and scientists but rather the corporate types who stretch the bounds of safety and decency with economic friendly decisions over lives.

Take Diablo Canyon.....said to be able to withstand a 7.0 . Well, what happens if the shake is much larger, like 8.0 or 9.0? And Macktal's story on my blog? I trust my brother in law. He's a great guy. I don't trust Tepco or GE. Do you?

Let's watch this thing play out, but at this point it doesn't look good at all.
Are you worried about radioactive isotopes hitting us? There is debate in the nuclear medicine community as to just how much a dose carries harm.

I feel really bad and prayerful for the brave guys putting their lives at deaths door, dealing with the core and the spent rods. Goddamn. The execs should be in there. GE too.

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:22 am

Hugs, U-D. May they all be safe. Take care of yourself in the meantime.

I've been donating to rescuing the pets now. Someone has to, might as well be me.

http://blogs.discovery.com/daily_treat/

We-D, I passed through the airport at Nagasaki decades ago, and was in Miyajima, which is near Hiroshima, but never heard anything about the radiation levels. Never asked, either. Never went to the peace Memorials, as Dad would not go. I just don't know.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:35 am

U.S. Senate Briefing on Nuclear Plant Crisis in Japan and Implications for the United States
Download: Statement by Dr. Edwin Lyman to U.S. Senate Briefing on Nuclear Plant Crisis in Japan

STATEMENT OF DR. EDWIN LYMAN,
SENIOR SCIENTIST, GLOBAL SECURITY PROGRAM

TO THE SENATE ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE

UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS

MARCH 16, 2011

On behalf of the Union of Concerned Scientists, I would like to thank Chairman Boxer, Ranking Member Inhofe, and the other members of the Environment and Public Works Committee for the opportunity to provide our views on the unfolding accident at the Fukushima Dai-Ichi plant and its implications for nuclear power in this country.

The Union of Concerned Scientists would like to extend its deepest sympathies to the people of Japan during this crisis.

While the ongoing situation in Japan should be a main focus of U.S attention, we should not hesitate to ask ourselves whether we are doing all that we can do to prevent a Fukushima-like nuclear disaster from happening here.

Before proceeding, I would like to say that the Union of Concerned Scientists is neither pro nor anti-nuclear power, but has served as a nuclear power safety and security watchdog for over 40 years.

In the aftermath of the 1979 Three Mile Island accident, the NRC undertook a major overhaul of its rules to correct many of the regulatory weaknesses that the accident revealed. In contrast, seven years later, the Commission and the industry avoided learning any lessons from the far more severe Chernobyl accident because of the misleading claim that such an extreme release of radioactivity could never happen at a plant of Western design.

However, the NRC and the industry cannot hide this time behind the "it can't happen here" excuse. We have 23 plants of the same design. We have plants that are just as old. We have had station blackouts.

We have a regulatory system that is not clearly superior to that of the Japanese. We have had extreme weather events that exceeded our expectations and defeated our emergency planning measures (Katrina).

We have had close calls (e.g. Davis-Besse) that were only one additional failure away from becoming disasters. We have had full-blown disasters in other industries (e.g. BP). We have suffered a devastating terrorist air attack against our infrastructure for which we were completely unprepared.

I would ask the Committee to imagine for a moment that the crisis unfolding at Fukushima is taking place in their home states, and to consider whether this is something that Americans should ever have to endure under any circumstances.

If the answer is noâ€”the right answer, in our opinionâ€”then it is incumbent on you to thoroughly investigate whether the risk of an American Fukushima is really as low as the NRC and the industry claim.

But even though it will be a long time before we learn all the lessons from the still-evolving disaster in Japan, it is not premature to immediately take steps to reduce vulnerabilities that have long been known by regulators but have not been addressed. I will offer a few examples.

1. At least two spent fuel pools at the Fukushima plant have caught fire and are releasing radiation into the atmosphere. These pools are on the upper floor of these Mark I boiling-water reactors and are now open to the air following explosions that breached the buildings around them. The U.S. has 31 boiling-water reactors with similarly situated spent fuel pools that are far more densely packed than those at Fukushima and hence could pose far higher risks if damaged. The U.S. should act quickly to remove spent fuel from these pools and place them in dry storage casks to reduce the heat load and radioactive inventories of the pools.

2. The Fukushima accident was precipitated by an earthquake and tsunami, but the direct cause appears to have been a loss of both off-site and on-site power supplies, a situation known as a station blackout. There are many other types of initiating events that could cause such a situation, including terrorist attacks. The NRC requires U.S. plants to have the capability to cope with a station blackout for no more than four to eight hours. We need to re-evaluate the adequacy of these requirements and the effectiveness of their implementation.

3. Although the Japanese are engaged in truly heroic efforts to mitigate the worst effects of this accident and reduce radioactive releases that could harm the public, these efforts have only been partially effective, are already resulting in life-threatening conditions for the workers on site, and are likely to ultimately fail. U.S. nuclear plants have severe accident management plans, but these plans are not required by regulations and do not have to be evaluated by the NRC and tested for their effectiveness. In the case of aircraft attack on a nuclear plant, the NRC does require plants to have plans to cope with the loss of large areas of the plant due to explosion and fire. These plans will have to be re-evaluated in light of Fukushima to judge whether they can be realistically carried out. In the meantime, the NRC should place a far greater emphasis on preventing accidents and terrorist attacks rather than trying to control them afterward.

4. Elevated levels of radiation have already been detected more than one hundred miles from the release site. While these levels remain low, if the accident continues to worsen then they could increase dramatically. If there was a reactor accident in the United States, the emergency preparedness measures that would directly protect the public, including evacuation planning and potassium iodide distribution, are limited to a 10-mile radius. Whether this distance should be increased will need to be reevaluated, as will the workability of emergency plans in the context of natural disasters or terrorist attacks.

There are many other areas where we believe the NRC has allowed safety margins to decrease too far. Now, not after an accident, is the time to reconsider whether the NRCâ€™s position on â€œhow safe is safeâ€

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:28 am

The government has authorized the voluntary evacuation of dependents, they can take one bag, and the flights are heading to Korea for the most part.

Okay, when they start evacuating the military dependents, then I worry. Crap. I hope my friends in Yokosuka are on the move, but I know they have elderly family members,

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:41 am

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/mil ... n-1.137999

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:55 am

ygmir wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:I just need to share. My late wife's hometown is just down the road from Sendai, not too far. I still have friends and family there. I know all too well the sweet little villages full of sincere courageous folk, that have been devastated. It's rough for me right now...
dang Dougly!
have you any news of their fate?
Hang in there pal.

Yeah, looks like they were way down in Nagoya, didn't even feel a tremor.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:39 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:
ygmir wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:I just need to share. My late wife's hometown is just down the road from Sendai, not too far. I still have friends and family there. I know all too well the sweet little villages full of sincere courageous folk, that have been devastated. It's rough for me right now...
dang Dougly!
have you any news of their fate?
Hang in there pal.
Yeah, looks like they were way down in Nagoya, didn't even feel a tremor.

happy news, good for you, and them, pal.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:13 pm

I post this from another board...

I give you a stellar example of what is wrong with the reporting on the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant. Take the time to look over the graphic below and try to understand the message that it seems to be trying to impart. Does it mean that 77 thousand people are going to die or lose their hair? Will another 62 thousand residents experience some combination of nausea or vomiting suggesting acute radiation sickness? What about the people on the outside areas of the evacuation zone? Can they expect to experience chronic or acute anemia due to exposure? Is this map saying that ALL of the people within a 50 mile radius are going to experience some sort of biological damage regardless of the weather and wind conditions?

Does it mean everyone within a 50 mile radius is going to get sick or die?

What this graphic tells you is nothing.

Absolutely fucking NOTHING other than that fact that town of Utsonomiya lies to the north of Tokyo.

Why? Because one profoundly critically important variable is missing. Time. Specifically, exposure time. For instance, if the dose rate (exposure/time) at 1.5 miles is 670 rem everyone in the area who loitered about for a single hour is likely to die in 1-2 weeks. Everyone spending a minimum of one hour in the in the stay-indoor zone is going to get sick.

Maybe you get my drift...

The Evacuation Zones Around the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Plant'

Estimates of Potential Exposure Define U.S. Evacuation Zone

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission recommended on Wednesday that Americans within 50 miles of the Fukushima reactors evacuate. The recommendation was based on a model that predicts potential radiation levels depending on whether the containment vessels remain intact, weather patterns, and other factors. Here are the results of the model on March 16.

Now, what if evacuation of the people living (or stuck) in the tan 'stay-indoor' zone takes say, three days? That means that everyone at the 15-mile boundary will get a dose of 1,080 rem (3 x 24 x 15rem). Looking at the map and not knowing what the * dose rate is, 1080 on the graphic suggests (to me) that such an exposure is frighteningly close to the 1,500 rem mark which indicates death within 1-2 weeks. Can you see the panic starting here?

Without that one very important variable in the calculation anyone with half a wit or half an imagination - or half an agenda can take the numbers and run with them. And who's to say they're wrong? Who's to argue that the imprecise reporting doesn't mean dose rates based on an hour exposure? After all, the New York Times said it so, it HAS to be true.

Now, do I have standing if I argue that the numbers more realistically suggest a dose rate measured in a 12 or 24 hour period? Not likely. But I don't know that so it would be irresponsible for me to comment on it professionally based on a hunch or an assumption. Magnify this by several thousand and you get an idea of the enormity of what it takes to quell bad information especially during a period when collective anxiety is rising faster than the temperature of those smoking fuel rods.

If there's one thing I meant to say with this little rant it's to remind folks not to believe everything they hear or read without a huge dose of scrutiny. And that goes for whatever side of the fence you drink your coffee on. After all, a half-truth is often running around the world before truth (or facts) can even get its socks on.

* the amount of whole body radiation one is exposed to during a given period of time.

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:27 pm

Not to mention that the measurement units as so confusing between gray, rad, sievert, rem, curie, etc., etc.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:27 am

Iso, or anyone, perhaps you can help me understand the concern between Unit 3 and the other units. I guess unit 3 uses Plutonium and the others don't. Even without Unit 3 really bad things can happen, but it seems that Unit 3 can make that even worse and I don't get it.

Quote from a CNN article "In part of the effort to prevent greater radiation emissions, Edano has said addressing issues at the nuclear facility's No. 3 reactor -- the sole damaged unit that contains plutonium along with the uranium in its fuel rods -- remains the top priority."

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:30 am

please....be calm.

we have been sucking radioactivity for a whole week for YEARS, even DECADES...

sorta like the way the polio vaccine works...

we're fine...relax....so much for being darkwads anymore tho...

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:34 am

Heard a report about how the Chernobyl area is doing lately. Very nice actually, far from a wasteland.

I'll see if I can dig something up.

Oh yeah, if you can't find potassium iodide (KI), I understand that the field-expedient way to get iodide into your system safely is to get large amounts of iodine tincture (or povodine) and paint your face with it every day. This allows your body to absorb it through your skin as opposed to digesting it internally, which is not recommended. Apparently you need to start now in order to develop an internal reserve of iodine in your body.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:43 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Heard a report about how the Chernobyl area is doing lately. Very nice actually, far from a wasteland.

I'll see if I can dig something up.

Oh yeah, if you can't find potassium iodide (KI), I understand that the field-expedient way to get iodide into your system safely is to get large amounts of iodine tincture (or povodine) and paint your face with it every day. This allows your body to absorb it through your skin as opposed to digesting it internally, which is not recommended. Apparently you need to start now in order to develop an internal reserve of iodine in your body.

I used to make my own suntan oil and I found this with a google search

"
Before commercial suntan lotions were widely available, our mothers and grandmothers used a very simple and inexpensive method for achieving that "sun-kissed healthy glow." They would combine baby oil and iodine to tan their skin. Unfortunately, little was known about skin damage from ultraviolet solar rays during their era."

As you applied this oil the iodine would make ya look tan just putting it on!! Your skin would begin to burn very quickly.

Mojojita · Post by **Mojojita** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:08 pm

Since my house is only about 100 miles from a nuclear reactor, I'm now keeping Potassium Iodide caps in my freezer, just in case.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:02 pm

wedeliver wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:Heard a report about how the Chernobyl area is doing lately. Very nice actually, far from a wasteland.

I'll see if I can dig something up.

Oh yeah, if you can't find potassium iodide (KI), I understand that the field-expedient way to get iodide into your system safely is to get large amounts of iodine tincture (or povodine) and paint your face with it every day. This allows your body to absorb it through your skin as opposed to digesting it internally, which is not recommended. Apparently you need to start now in order to develop an internal reserve of iodine in your body.
I used to make my own suntan oil and I found this with a google search

"
Before commercial suntan lotions were widely available, our mothers and grandmothers used a very simple and inexpensive method for achieving that "sun-kissed healthy glow." They would combine baby oil and iodine to tan their skin. Unfortunately, little was known about skin damage from ultraviolet solar rays during their era."

As you applied this oil the iodine would make ya look tan just putting it on!! Your skin would begin to burn very quickly.

Called my bluff.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:48 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Heard a report about how the Chernobyl area is doing lately. Very nice actually, far from a wasteland.

I'll see if I can dig something up.

Oh yeah, if you can't find potassium iodide (KI), I understand that the field-expedient way to get iodide into your system safely is to get large amounts of iodine tincture (or povodine) and paint your face with it every day. This allows your body to absorb it through your skin as opposed to digesting it internally, which is not recommended. Apparently you need to start now in order to develop an internal reserve of iodine in your body.

Elena begs to differ:

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:44 pm

we have been sucking radioactivity for a whole week for YEARS, even DECADES...

sorta like the way the polio vaccine works...

Not in the fucking least like a vaccine. Yours is the most fucking irresponsible thing that's been posted yet in this thread. Suggesting that there's an immunological factor related to intake of any radioisotope is as wrong as it's stupid.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:47 pm

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050809/ ... 808-4.html

Chernobyl ecosystems 'remarkably healthy'

"The biodiversity is higher there than before the accident."

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:55 pm

Elena is one of my heroes.

I try to read that site once a year just for good measure.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:52 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050809/ ... 808-4.html

Chernobyl ecosystems 'remarkably healthy'

"The biodiversity is higher there than before the accident."

Old news. Because the people aren't bothering the animals. There's some military owned land in the states, same deal. During WWII the forest animals did just fine.
Counter intuitive...

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:02 pm

No, I haven't posted anything. I won't add to the hysteria. To a degree, I agree with ISO. I also agree with Kinetic. I'm doubtful that we're hearing the whole truth. I just flat don't know enough about the subject to have an educated opinion.
I do know that it matters a great deal which isotopes are being released. If the release is steam, the half-life is very short;
http://www.sciencegateway.org/isotope/hydrogen.html
It's a different story for the heavier isotopes.
About 25 years ago, I read a story about explorers who found water containers that had been left in the desert by the French Foreign Legion. The interesting part was that the containers had been filled before ANY nuclear testing. The researchers wanted to test to see what the background radiation was before nuclear testing. I looked for years for any follow up. Didn't see any.
If you tally all the fission and fusion tests, you can see that we've added a lot to the natural background radiation. Then, there is the radiation from research;
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/radiation/broch ... anford.htm
There is a lot of natural background radiation. We know about the ionizing radiation used in X-rays. I don't know the spectrum or power used at airports. Can't say.

We have to hope that there is a minimum of radioactive metals /oxides that are released. The iodine is good. Leafy vegetables are good. The israelis have reported a ?cure?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 14,00.html
IV chelation would be good. You need to protect your DNA. Like I said, I don't have an informed opinion.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:35 pm

[youtube][/youtube]

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:05 pm

Kinetik V · Post by **Kinetik V** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:44 pm

Seriously? Facepalms? We get our resident nuclear safety person and a damn good civil engineer on here who could tell us facts about something that's got ultra high visibility and we get fucking facepalm shit.

Fuck you. Both of you.

Guess the sense of community must be dead as instead of sharing what you know we get this crap....and to think people blasted DVD for his content? At least he posted some shit that would make you think...but you two give us fucking facepalms.

I would say you suck...but your pics shout it louder than anything I can scream from my virtual soapbox.

Science is dead. Long live media spin and hype...and so much for helping truth try and catch up to the lies that make it halfway around the world before the truth can even get it's shoelaces tied. Opportunities....wasted. It's a damn shame.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:22 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:

you want face palm, i'll give you face palm.

Japan 8.9 earthquake and Tsunami

this is just WAY too fun.