Japan 8.9 earthquake and Tsunami

[Ugly Dougly]

So, I picture a building with a building inside of it. The building inside houses the control rods and is made of thick concrete walls. How does pouring water on the outside of this building within a builoding cool anything.

We have all seen that the Outer building has been heavly damaged and I wonder how did the gases get built up inside that structure if the innner most containement building has not been damaged and breached.

I understand how they can get water to the spent fuel ponds. But if the containment structions has not been breached how does the water reach the control rods area to add water to that pool.

It appears that what we have here is a failure to communicate!
Or at least sloppy a translation.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/21_09.html

Firefighters used an unmanned vehicle that can continuously spray seawater from the height of 22 meters directly into a pool containing spent fuel rods.

[wedeliver]

So, what they are doing in Japan when they spray water on the Reactor they are trying to refill the Spent Fuel Pool. They are not trying to "COOL" the containment building as 12" thick concrete walls are such an insulator that the cooling to the outside of the walls would not transmit to the inside walls of the containment structor.

Is that correct?

[cowboyangel]

Who really knows what they're doing other than being scant with the facts. That's corporate accountability for ya. Do you trust them? BP? Monsanto? Massey Energy? Honeywell?Blackwater? GE?

[can't sit still]

There is some worry that the recent quake will increase the stress on the faults nearer Tokyo;
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110321/D9M3IKK01.html
It has some interesting figures on subduction.
"It created a trench in the sea floor 240 miles long (380 kilometers long) and 120 miles wide (190 kilometers wide) as one tectonic plate dove 30 feet (nine meters) beneath another, said Eric Fielding of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory."

[Isotopia]

Okay, the analogy doesn't work for you.
In a general sense, if the system is big enough, so the reactor core, the rest of the complex, then cooling the big part rapidly will also cool the hot small part. Or if you like the sea water is adding mass to the big part, making the whole colder.

Were you sober when you posted that?

[theCryptofishist]

Yes, and obviously stretching beyond my expertise. Misapplying what I know about using thermal mass as a temperature regulator in building "climate control" was my big mistake.

[Ugly Dougly]

So, what they are doing in Japan when they spray water on the Reactor they are trying to refill the Spent Fuel Pool. They are not trying to "COOL" the containment building as 12" thick concrete walls are such an insulator that the cooling to the outside of the walls would not transmit to the inside walls of the containment structor.

Is that correct?

If we can assume that they know at least as much about the laws of thermodynamics as we do, then yes.

My expertise is not in physics, but I do have some background in journalism. When you speak technology to a reporter, and when you translate it to another language as well, one can expect important facts to be left out. Probably there is also some politics and saving of face. Expect the waters to be muddy.

[cowboyangel]

[gyre]

Japanese pothole repair.



A really excellent story on nightline yesterday about the refugee situation.
That doesn't seem to be going as well.
The mayor of a nearby town was told to lie about the disaster to his town.
Some people are staying in boxes now.
No supplies for the hospitals being brought in.

If japan handles the crisis this poorly, plan on being on your own here when it happens.
They definitely planned ahead...

[Ugly Dougly]

My workmate's hubby worked there previously.
She said they are not being up-front with the non-Japanese, and it appears that they are not so with their own folks. Sad.

I do have room on my couch for a couple of refugee babes, of course.

[motskyroonmatick]

Japanese pothole repair.



A really excellent story on nightline yesterday about the refugee situation.
That doesn't seem to be going as well.
The mayor of a nearby town was told to lie about the disaster to his town.
Some people are staying in boxes now.
No supplies for the hospitals being brought in.

If japan handles the crisis this poorly, plan on being on your own here when it happens.
They definitely planned ahead...

That looks like a quality repair. Interesting how the pavement and road bed failed along the paving joints.

It does seem the worse the disaster the more individuals and communities have to be self reliant. I'm pretty well stocked up with all my Burning Man stuff but it would be wise for everyone to have an appropriate stock of water, food and supplies to build an improvised shelter. It is generally accepted that during any large scale disaster that local emergency responders will be totally overwhelmed and unable to respond to most calls for assistance due to sheer need and unusable roads.

I've had a hard time understanding why communities in need are not "bombed" with the needed material. Air space is often the only open transport system after a wide scale disaster and yet aid is usually driven in once roads are made passable. I do recall the US military dropping MRE's in. I'd like to see some of that happening in this and future disasters. I understand any logistical situation takes time to set up and air drops are expensive but it does seem that the bureaucracy needs to be more nimble in these situations.

[The Hustler]

This has made me more aware that my house is in a town built directly over a fault, in a river valley that is nearly at sea level, almost equidistant from a dam on one end and the ocean on the other, AND about 100 miles from a nuclear reactor! (I keep iodine caps in my freezer just in case).

Please don't say you have a reverse mortgage also ...

[ygmir]

I'd bet some of the interesting fail in the road bed, Motz, is because it's laid down that way, too. probably causes seams, of a sort, since all the equipment, compactors, spreaders, etc, follow the linear there.
Might also go, that, the pavement would have natural "cold joints", from laying a lane at a time, and, the substrate may not fail exactly there, but, the pavement, have some spanning ability (especially when cold), may well come apart at said cold joints.

I agree, too:
Why didn't the Japanese gov. start running choppers, loaded with stuff, right away? or even c-130 airdrops?
you know, their bases have the stuff, and, other nations are and were standing by, with the stuff, as well.

Answer (IMHO): Bureaucrats give little thought to the individuals, and, focus more on making sure they don't "look bad".

but, that's just the cynical "me" talking.

[Ugly Dougly]

Gyre, where did you find that picture?

[gyre]

On a car forum, linked to jalopnik.

[motskyroonmatick]

I'd bet some of the interesting fail in the road bed, Motz, is because it's laid down that way, too. probably causes seams, of a sort, since all the equipment, compactors, spreaders, etc, follow the linear there.
Might also go, that, the pavement would have natural "cold joints", from laying a lane at a time, and, the substrate may not fail exactly there, but, the pavement, have some spanning ability (especially when cold), may well come apart at said cold joints.

I agree, too:
Why didn't the Japanese gov. start running choppers, loaded with stuff, right away? or even c-130 airdrops?
you know, their bases have the stuff, and, other nations are and were standing by, with the stuff, as well.

Answer (IMHO): Bureaucrats give little thought to the individuals, and, focus more on making sure they don't "look bad".

but, that's just the cynical "me" talking.

The cold joints and lane based compaction of the road bed surely were a factor. The cold joints are where the most water would be able to filter through the pavement influencing the road bed underneath. Especially if there was no tack put on the joint. It might go as far as creating a wet vertical fault of sorts where the earth would naturally separate if given the opportunity.
Would have been a fun little job to do but I 'd rather operate equipment than my old usual spot of checking grade.

One of my friends works in humanitarian aid. I'll try to ask her about the whole air drop thing whenever she gets back from wherever she is. There may be an explanation or no...

[Bob]

Bullshit. Pavement is flexible, by design it moves with the subgrade. Not their fault the subgrade moved around like a Jersey stripper.

[can't sit still]

A new tsunami? Not so big.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... ef=edition
It appears that there IS MOX fuel in one reactor;
http://blogs.forbes.com/oshadavidson/20 ... radiation/

[can't sit still]

This page has lots of information on nuclear remediation and speeding up radioactive decay. It was thought that a half-life of a given element was a fixed value;
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Direct ... ng_America

[can't sit still]

Interesting action in Japan. http://www.rense.com/general93/tanks.htm

[gyre]

Michio actually mentioned Homer Simpson while describing the japanese situation.

He also mentioned plutonium in the used rods.

[can't sit still]

Evidently, there are several embassies moving out of Tokyo;
http://eventhorizonchronicle.blogspot.c ... tokyo.html

[The Hustler]

The Japanese are our friends now! Keep that in mind, when we killed tens of thousands of them with just two bombs. Im not supporting or arguing that, but they were able to rebuild, better than before! My hopes and prayers go out to the nation of Japan, but I have confidence they will be back.

We helped them write their new constitution, and in many cases, we were helping them rebuild almost immediately after the war. Admiral Decker had the silver which was hidden underwater in Yokosuka Bay, he returned it all so the city could be rebuilt, rather than keep it as spoils of war for the US.

Weird moment: my parents were visiting me, and my house owner had a family dinner for us. My father and her father sat and talked about the war, how they'd both been into photography, and the places they had been at the same time. The Same Time. As enemies, but they were now sitting together over beer.
I have no doubt Japan will bounce back. But I still ache for the families who have been destroyed.

That's awesome. Japan will bounce back and most likely be smarter next time.

If we faced the same nightmare, we would slowly rebuild stoopiter the next time at a huge profit to big corporations, that will probably receive subsidies in addition to profits and pay no income taxes.

Wait, post/tread drift.

That must have been one hell of a conversation. Did they have photos? Imagine if they were in each other's pictures?

[Ugly Dougly]

Michio actually mentioned Homer Simpson while describing the japanese situation.

He also mentioned plutonium in the used rods.

Apparently one of the reactors uses plutonium.

[can't sit still]

Y'all can quit worrying about all this supposed radiation. The EPA is going to fix the problem for good.
"According to PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, the new standards would drastically raise the levels of radiation allowed in food, water, air, and the general environment. PEER, a national organization of local, state, and federal employees who had access to internal EPA emails, claims that the new standards will result in a “nearly 1000-fold increase for exposure to strontium-90, a 3000 to 100,000-fold hike for exposure to iodine-131; and an almost 25,000 rise for exposure to radioactive nickel-63â€

[gyre]

EPA is only there to make it look safe.

Nightline tonight had a story on the Indian River plant device to keep water from leaking out in an earthquake, has been leaking for 18 years.
Response - not a problem.

[Kinetik V]

Michio actually mentioned Homer Simpson while describing the japanese situation.

He also mentioned plutonium in the used rods.

Apparently one of the reactors uses plutonium.

That would be Reactor #3, the MOX fueled reactor.

[Isotopia]

Internationally known Physicist Dr Paolo Scampa has calculated that 70 Billion Lethal Doses of radioactive particles have been released from the Fukushima Daiichi six reactor site. That is enough lethal radiation to kill everyone on Planet Earth 10 times over.

More disgustingly inaccurate reporting. If you Can't Sit Still can you at least try to Fucking Think Straight?

[gyre]

It was reported today that aerial photos reveal missing cooling plumbing that is the factor, still being concealed by the owners, but supposed to be visibly missing now.

May be the high exposure leak source as well.

[can't sit still]

Hmmm, 70 billion doses. I never posted anything about that. It has no relative meaning.