Black Rock City is the model for civilized societies?

[TomServo]

We fight, we bicker on eplaya, but I don't see that on the playa. I see a perfect community. What say you?

[Trishntek]

For the limited time it exists, it is a self-contained euphoria of our own individual creation. By bringing it "all" with us, what would happen when we run out of the stuff that keeps the city going? It is UNSUSTAINABLE!

[theCryptofishist]

Exactly.
Not only is everyone in a holiday mood, but a lot of the more disruptive elements don't come for economic and cultural reasons.
Cherry picking doesn't count as civilized.

[mudpuppy000]

Yeah, it's not sustainable. I can only imagine what it would devolve into if we got stuck out there for weeks.

[Ugly Dougly]

I contend that it's a limited society, for the reasons that if all the elements of a society were introduced, I think we'd probably wipe each other out or become enslaved by other societies.

[MyDearFriend]

Don't be so quick, y'all. Self-selected groups have tackled many great challenges, and many have failed miserably. I don't have the experience to merit an opinion, but I think the population of Black Rock City would make a fantastic extra-terrestrial colony, for example, and would do well in almost any other circumstances.

And, while UD makes an excellent point about defensive capabilities, I think the BRC leadership is adept enough at negotiation to maintain prudent alliances. And many eplayans seem quite ready to defend themselves if necessary. So give yourselves some credit here!

Y'all really are an amazing group of people. And a very hardy gene pool. Don't sell yourselves short.

[Trishntek]

I'm surprised at the poll answers in the "NO" column consider the question. If BRC is NOT better than defaultia, why would go through all the obstacles to be there?

Or am I mistaken? The thread title says one thing and the poll question does not really have the same context. I take the poll question as it stands without considering the context of the thread title. I'm confooooooosed,,,,,

[TomServo]

I'm surprised at the poll answers in the "NO" column consider the question. If BRC is NOT better than defaultia, why would go through all the obstacles to be there?

Or am I mistaken? The thread title says one thing and the poll question does not really have the same context. I take the poll question as it stands without considering the context of the thread title. I'm confooooooosed,,,,,

think outside the box...its a simple question.


and to others, sure its a holiday...but do you need a holiday to be civil?

[Eric]

We fight, we bicker on eplaya, but I don't see that on the playa. I see a perfect community. What say you?

I've heard of fights on the playa, I know people who've been raped, I see plenty of arguing...

The playa is better than the default world, but it's not a perfect place. Statistically it's probably got a much lower "crime and violence" rate than a city of comparable size, but like it's been said you're comparing Club Med to an actual permanent city. They're two completely different animals.

The question could as easily be "is Disneyland the model for perfect societies", and I have some friends who would answer with a resounding "yes", but they wouldn't be caught dead at Burning Man. What's desirable for us may not be for others.

I go to BRC to get away from Defaultia, but I'm not so blinded that I think it's Perfect for everyone. It's just my ideal vacation.

YMMV

[Elderberry]

I mostly agree with Eric on this, except it's only one of my ideal vacation spots because of it's diversity and uniqueness, the others are all considerably more luxurious and a whole lot less work!

[TomServo]

We fight, we bicker on eplaya, but I don't see that on the playa. I see a perfect community. What say you?

I've heard of fights on the playa, I know people who've been raped, I see plenty of arguing...

The playa is better than the default world, but it's not a perfect place. Statistically it's probably got a much lower "crime and violence" rate than a city of comparable size, but like it's been said you're comparing Club Med to an actual permanent city. They're two completely different animals.

The question could as easily be "is Disneyland the model for perfect societies", and I have some friends who would answer with a resounding "yes", but they wouldn't be caught dead at Burning Man. What's desirable for us may not be for others.

I go to BRC to get away from Defaultia, but I'm not so blinded that I think it's Perfect for everyone. It's just my ideal vacation.

YMMV

the fried chicken at disneyland is over priced and greasy as hell. As a temporary society, we are pretty damned civil.

[Eric]

the fried chicken at disneyland is over priced and greasy as hell. As a temporary society, we are pretty damned civil.

I agree, otherwise I wouldn't be on here or trying to get there. They wouldn't agree, and would rather have the greasy chicken than the dust and heat. That's what makes being individuals fun.

Yes, things out there are a lot more civil than in the default world, but I think that stems from being a "self-selecting community" and the temporary nature of the event. If we were out there for another week or two people would die, possibly literally.

[Trishntek]

the fried chicken at disneyland is over priced and greasy as hell. As a temporary society, we are pretty damned civil.

I agree, otherwise I wouldn't be on here or trying to get there. They wouldn't agree, and would rather have the greasy chicken than the dust and heat. That's what makes being individuals fun.

Yes, things out there are a lot more civil than in the default world, but I think that stems from being a "self-selecting community" and the temporary nature of the event. If we were out there for another week or two people would die, possibly literally.

Is that not one of the unique beauties of BM? We take an abundance of stuff into a challenging environment for a given amount of time. We have greater anticipation of the fundamentals in daily life. The environment and limited time creates an independence from the default world. We find ourselves "in our element" in the middle of nowhere. Needs are pretty much satisfied and we can expend more energy on WANTS!

[theCryptofishist]

and to others, sure its a holiday...but do you need a holiday to be civil?

No. But back out here, you've got bills to pay, bosses to mollify, deadlines to meet, and in some ways you're under a lot more stress. Plus the people around you are all stressed out as well.
And I sort of resent the (perceived?) tone of that question.

[ygmir]

nope.......I see it as a fun time, and burning the candle at both ends.

we use huge amounts of resources, to thrive and have fun for the time we're there.
given extended periods of time, a lot of the "the playa will provide" element would be eaten, and enslaved.

you've got a huge presence of inventive people, but, don't forget BRC is not just them (us?). Frat boys, sparkle ponies, tourists, hippies (only the nonproductive ones), no-loads who promise the world and don't come through, and the like, are also there. And, would, IMHO, throw a monkey wrench into a lot of things.
Sure, they make great targets, and are lean and protein rich, but, at some point you gotta deal with them.

I think a ton of why it's so "nice" out there, is, as others have put so well, because of the "holiday attitude", and, knowing it's a short time span, to have fun, hug, and share.

Just watch what happens, when the drugs, patchouli, and PBR run out...........

[hookahdude]

Just watch what happens, when the drugs, patchouli, and PBR run out...........

.....the PBR.... can... run out?

oh shit....

[TomServo]

either way, what Ive learned at BRC, Ive brought back to the default world....with varying results. I think its made me a better person.

[ygmir]

either way, what Ive learned at BRC, Ive brought back to the default world....with varying results. I think its made me a better person.

crap TS, any better, and you'd have to watch for speedboats while jogging.........

[gyre]

I have to agree about burning man as an event.
But I am always well pleased to see a crew come together and often do things that most of the people involved have never done before.
I think much of the organizational spirit would be effective under harsher conditions.

Working exodus, we were left without contact (and without warning us), to see if we would meltdown, as the last two crews had.
After a few tries at contact, I started answering the questions people had, as best as I could, and we just kept going.
I suppose sometimes I was making up my own rules, but they seemed happy with the results.
When I was asked by someone at a loss as to how to deal with a car breaking in line, I told them to pull the car out of line and hold them until the driver cried.
She went from timid to in charge and handled the problem.

I can see groups like we had, doing well with worse problems.
Many of these folks had clearly never done anything like it before, but did well.

And I have seen apparent sparkle ponies get down in the dust and change their own bike tires, once they had the tools and knew what to do.
I try not to underestimate anyone that thinks going to the desert will be fun.

[dr.placebo]

The question does not admit of a simple answer.

I do love being in BRC. I love the attitude of most of the people there. I love the desert. I even love (mostly) the harsh conditions, because they make me step up my game a notch (I also love hard work and backpacking, so at least I'm a consistent freak).

I've made some wonderful friends at BRC and associated with BRC. Burners are rarely dull, even if we do go on a bit much about the event.

Yet it is still (for most of us) just a week in the desert. We bring our shit with us from the default world. We can behave badly. Stuff gets stolen, moochers and moopers roam at will. And I work with BED because BRC can have sexual assault. It's not utopia, even when so many of us have some desire to be utopians.

Being there has taught me so much about human nature and friendship, and has inspired me to be more than I was. I'm grateful, yet I do not feel blind to the flaws. It's like a rich relationship with someone you want to spend time with, yet who knows how to piss you off.

I keep going back because the experience stays fresh. And if it ever gets boring then it's my own damn fault, not yours. Once more I'm glad that I've got my tickets.

[gyre]

Any question of a survival society being like burning man currently is for a week, is out of the question.
Maybe more like the weeks before and after?

There are people that tell me their life is like burning man.
Maybe it is, in their circles.

Universal reciprocity is a common hardship survival society economy.
I've even seen it in many isolated groups outside of any burning man connection, though I didn't really think about how it worked before.
It is even traditional in this area of the country to give away most things that are useful, but thrown away in other areas, furniture, etc.
I always thought everyone did this, until a girlfriend commented on it.
May have something to do with farming ethics.

Considering every single camp seems to have their own specific ideas, I don't see any consensus of what the city actually is, other than the organized work crews.
But I do think most serious burners would adapt.

Most people can't envision the crime situation where I live, but people gradually adapt.
Many adapt by denial, or just getting out (somewhat illusionary), but many of us step up our self defense and accept it as normal now.
Some things here are no different than a survival situation, and tougher than the desert.
We even went off the grid for extended times due to disasters.
Everyone had a different reaction to that.


I wanted to go to burning man for amusement originally, but was definitely seeking a similar sense of humour and approach to life.
Even when I was starting to buy tickets in the 90s, and still very unsure I would like it, I still knew I wanted to be part of the volunteer crews.
Is that nuts?
When I finally made it, I was in rough shape and it was more like therapy.
It's hard to separate my attitude toward it now from that experience.
Let's just say I am looking forward to going for frivolous reasons, as I first intended.

I can't say I love the desert, but I am starting to understand why people do.
I can even see myself living in it by deliberate choice.
I don't know what the hell that's about.

Burning man has helped me to re-expand my ambitions to where they used to be, to travel more, and so on.
One particular burner has inspired me to look at every new place in the light of 'Can I make things better here?'.
I have always been politically active, but this is a slightly different twist.

I don't know if I said so, but working with the shipyard to lobby berkeley may have given me the practice and the nerve to try a very different approach with my situation here in my city.
If so, I owe them an enormous debt for having the sense to ask for help when they needed it.
I found dealing with politics by letter tedious, but I also seemed to make a difference, so I'm told.
That was gratifying and may have given me an edge recently.
I really took some leaps.

I've looked for the original thread, but can't find it.


Anyway, it's a stupid question, but does provoke some thought.