Birthers

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:28 pm

http://www.radiofreeoz.com/

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:29 pm

http://www.radiofreeoz.com/

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:23 am

I'm certain that none of Trump's hair was born in this country.
I'll credit this planet.

As some know, I'm trying to get some ideas for auto efficiency accepted.
I was talking to a manufacturer in San Francisco of small gas and electric cars.
We were discussing their approach.
At some point, I said, "I have a 500 horsepower ford and a french bike.
Where do you think I fit in the whole earth first thing?"
Politics is like that in real world.

As for the usual radical right attacks, remember that Clinton was investigated hundreds of times, with many public accusations before anything grabbed the gullible.
Business as usual.

They call it the Big Lie in politics.

Why do you think one party needs hundreds of talk radio shows to indoctrinate about things they don't believe themselves?

I have mentioned before that some far right gun stores tell me they often get calls from people that believe all the propaganda.
They consider this evidence of mental instability and refuse to sell to them.

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:38 am

MisaBlue wrote:Do you mean they are not reall, that people fake them?

My official birth certificate is long gone. When I needed to produce one I had to get a certificate of live birth.

I think that means I was born in Kenya...

teardropper · Post by **teardropper** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:41 am

ygmir wrote:Maybe, all former prez's and candidates were born on U.S. soil?

'Cept McCain wasn't. Born in Panama.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:00 am

teardropper wrote:
ygmir wrote:Maybe, all former prez's and candidates were born on U.S. soil?
'Cept McCain wasn't. Born in Panama.

that was addressed and admitted earlier in the thread. Yes, that's true.
Were both parents, U.S. citizens? I wonder if that matters?

Thing is, IMHO, (other than the fun had pulling others strings), this is all moot.
Even if proven "ineligible" it would be unwise to remove.....I'd bet, the country would dissolve into civil war, or close to it.
His supporters would be just as unbelieving of evidence, as his detractors are, now.

And, I totally think McCain would be getting the same grief, given the same circumstances....although, maybe if he'd have come forward, quickly, with proof, and, not done so much to obfuscate, and, interrupt the search for evidence, it may well have gone away faster.

and, Gyre's reference to

Why do you think one party needs hundreds of talk radio shows to indoctrinate about things they don't believe themselves?

really? Hundreds? independent, or, do you mean syndicated programming? And, how does that number, compare to "the other party" and their access to media? Not to mention, left leaning bias of most of the MSM.

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:33 am

ygmir wrote: His supporters would be just as unbelieving of evidence, as his detractors are, now.

OK now, Ygmir, i simply can not let you get away with that remark. We are not living in the dark ages in this country, though I know that is hard to believe sometimes. If there were ANY problems or irregularities at all with Obama's birth certificate it would have been discovered in the vetting process long before he was endorsed by the Democratic party and his name put on the ballot. PERIOD.

And no matter what you argue, there is no equivalency between the birthers and anyone else living on the planet. These people are not capable of rational thought, and their ignorance is being played like a fiddle by all those that hope to gain their vote. END OF STORY.

They deserve no defense nor justification and it is beneath you to try to present one.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:45 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote: His supporters would be just as unbelieving of evidence, as his detractors are, now.

OK now, Ygmir, i simply can not let you get away with that remark. We are not living in the dark ages in this country, though I know that is hard to believe sometimes. If there were ANY problems or irregularities at all with Obama's birth certificate it would have been discovered in the vetting process long before he was endorsed by the Democratic party and his name put on the ballot. PERIOD.

And no matter what you argue, there is no equivalency between the birthers and anyone else living on the planet. These people are not capable of rational thought, and their ignorance is being played like a fiddle by all those that hope to gain their vote. END OF STORY.

They deserve no defense nor justification and it is beneath you to try to present one.

oh, I'm not saying there is anything wrong, JK.
What I'm saying is, given a McCain victory, I'd bet, there would be "birthers" as well.
And also, that, some individuals, who defend Obama, would attack McCain, on the same thing.

I agree (well hope) any problems would have been found early.
but, am entertained by the discussion, and "revelations" produced.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:02 am

Isn't this all 18th century nit picking? George Washington wasn't born in the U.S.A.! He was born in a British colony.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:11 am

nit picking sometimes can make for a fun discussion, as you should well know, TS.

yeah, when was the whole "natural born citizen" thing concieved?
it'd be interesting about the early prez's in that light.

Good call.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:30 am

I think it's silly. Especially for a country of foreigners...yes YOU TOO NATIVE AMERICANS! Bering Strait must have been cold!

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:31 am

ygmir wrote:nit picking sometimes can make for a fun discussion, as you should well know, TS.

yeah, when was the whole "natural born citizen" thing concieved?
it'd be interesting about the early prez's in that light.

Good call.

And sometimes it actually makes me understand what that phrase "From the sublime to the rediculous" actually means. LOL

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:54 am

TomServo wrote:I think it's silly. Especially for a country of foreigners...yes YOU TOO NATIVE AMERICANS! Bering Strait must have been cold!

+1 TS

fun is fun, JK........and, I know speaking for me, I quite often don't make my point as clear as I should.
But, I always appreciate your willingness to try to understand, and, once clear, kick my ass on a subject.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:58 am

jkisha wrote:Usually when democrats are irrational, it tends to be a bit more benign...like hugging trees, or protecting some obscure fly or beetle,

SNORT
blow coffee on screen.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:04 am

theCryptofishist wrote: I guess I don't have much trust in the human animal's ability to fill out bureaucratic forms...

That's ok fishy, I have no trust in the bureaucrats ability, to make a form that human animals are able to fill out.

by using human animal's as a term is this some way of looking hmmmm down on the population, who are not in goverment service?
are we well less then in some ways?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:23 am

George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Quincy Adams
Andrew Jackson
and...
William Henry Harrison

...were NOT U.S. born presidents!

President Obama was born in Hawaii. The Hospital has his records on file. His mother WAS unarguably a US citizen. who fucking cares!? Our last Governor was Austrian! And for being a Republican, he did OK!

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:34 am

TomServo wrote:who fucking cares!?

QFT.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53417.html

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:37 am

ygmir wrote:
TomServo wrote:I think it's silly. Especially for a country of foreigners...yes YOU TOO NATIVE AMERICANS! Bering Strait must have been cold!
+1 TS

fun is fun, JK........and, I know speaking for me, I quite often don't make my point as clear as I should.
But, I always appreciate your willingness to try to understand, and, once clear, kick my ass on a subject.

LOL. You always make your point. And you have a unique way of analyzing issues from both sides, which always causes me to think.

But what drives me up the wall is that you NEVER really take a position. Argument for argument's sake can sometimes be fun, but if it doesn't move one closer to the truth, it soon becomes a pointless exercise in futility.

What's that country song...you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:42 am

jkisha wrote:What's that country song...you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

I'll stand for Anarchism...but Im also Realistic.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:48 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
TomServo wrote:I think it's silly. Especially for a country of foreigners...yes YOU TOO NATIVE AMERICANS! Bering Strait must have been cold!
+1 TS

fun is fun, JK........and, I know speaking for me, I quite often don't make my point as clear as I should.
But, I always appreciate your willingness to try to understand, and, once clear, kick my ass on a subject.
LOL. You always make your point. And you have a unique way of analyzing issues from both sides, which always causes me to think.

But what drives me up the wall is that you NEVER really take a position. Argument for argument's sake can sometimes be fun, but if it doesn't move one closer to the truth, it soon becomes a pointless exercise in futility.

What's that country song...you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

But, but, JJJJ KKK.....that is my position:
I am so disenfranchised, or feel as such, by both parties I just can't agree much with either.
I like to think, I always point out what either side does that I like, agree with, or at least accept. and, the opposite.

For me, "argument, for arguments sake", is a great tool for learning.
Test the "other" opinion, probe, inspect (don't even go there, all you other porn monkeys)
and get clear, intelligent answers. This, has helped me greatly with my understanding, of both sides, and, my modification of some long held opinions.
And, in that, it does move me, closer to "my" truth. (Implying that we each have out own "truth" and, it's individualized although, can be agreed upon by others).

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:54 am

jkisha wrote:
But what drives me up the wall is that you NEVER really take a position. Argument for argument's sake can sometimes be fun, but if it doesn't move one closer to the truth, it soon becomes a pointless exercise in futility.

Maybe being neither Democrat or Republican, it is hard to take a position when you can see the crap on both sides. And wonder about the people on both side who swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

from what I can see the birthers really are not that much different then the truthers.

just different presidents, not much more.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:56 am

wasn't there a whole "birther" type thing surrounding GWB and his military records/service/eligibility?

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:58 am

ygmir wrote:wasn't there a whole "birther" type thing surrounding GWB and his military records/service/eligibility?

yep
same type of nuts, just different sides.

tamarakay · Post by **tamarakay** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:59 am

The birth certificate thing WAS brought up during the race to the election. So was the muslim thing. My brother was sending me that crap LONG before the election.

My brother is a birther. It's embarrassing. He would swear he is not racist, point to his marine buddies as proof, but he's a racist pig. Threatened to divorce his wife if she voted for Obama (she told him to F off) He does not think that the tea party is extreme enough. I worry about him.

I swear I don't know how mom raised the both of us.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:05 am

LOL

Told my mom I would disown her if she voted for Harry Reid.

She did.
Now ever time he fucks up and she bitches about him,
Well.......
You voted for him.... Said in a sweet innocent voice.

at times she hate me...

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:06 am

I got a bit curious, and checked Wikipedia. There is a fascinating article there about the "natural born citizen" clause in the Constitution. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Bo ... zen_Clause

There have been numerous controversies regarding the eligibility of presidential candidates. I found it interesting that the eligibility of John McCain is on shakier legal ground than Obama's, assuming that the self-stated birth places for both are correct.

There remains, to this day, no firm definition of "natural born citizen" that has been given by the Supreme Court.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:11 am

dr.placebo wrote:I got a bit curious, and checked Wikipedia. There is a fascinating article there about the "natural born citizen" clause in the Constitution. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Bo ... zen_Clause

There have been numerous controversies regarding the eligibility of presidential candidates. I found it interesting that the eligibility of John McCain is on shakier legal ground than Obama's, assuming that the self-stated birth places for both are correct.

There remains, to this day, no firm definition of "natural born citizen" that has been given by the Supreme Court.

I wonder if we would be having this conversation from the other side if McCain had won?

Probably so.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:26 am

goathead wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:I got a bit curious, and checked Wikipedia. There is a fascinating article there about the "natural born citizen" clause in the Constitution. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Bo ... zen_Clause

There have been numerous controversies regarding the eligibility of presidential candidates. I found it interesting that the eligibility of John McCain is on shakier legal ground than Obama's, assuming that the self-stated birth places for both are correct.

There remains, to this day, no firm definition of "natural born citizen" that has been given by the Supreme Court.
I wonder if we would be having this conversation from the other side if McCain had won?

Probably so.

I agree.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:35 am

ygmir wrote:
goathead wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:I got a bit curious, and checked Wikipedia. There is a fascinating article there about the "natural born citizen" clause in the Constitution. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Bo ... zen_Clause

There have been numerous controversies regarding the eligibility of presidential candidates. I found it interesting that the eligibility of John McCain is on shakier legal ground than Obama's, assuming that the self-stated birth places for both are correct.

There remains, to this day, no firm definition of "natural born citizen" that has been given by the Supreme Court.
I wonder if we would be having this conversation from the other side if McCain had won?

Probably so.
I agree.

probably be just as boring

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:04 pm

I just finished reading a book titled "Free Lunch. How the wealthiest Americans enrich themselves at government expense (and stick you with the bill)" by David Cay Johnston. It's a relatively easy read, but it took me forever to get through because each chapter made me angrier than the one I just read and I had to put the book down to give my blood pressure time to return to a normal level.

No one party was spared in this book, though some of the most egregious stories, to my way of thinking, were committed by Republicans. But the main reason I kept reading was to get to the last chapter titled "What to do?" I'll just leave you with his final thought:

"In the end, we must be the ones who make our government work, fulfilling the promise of the preamble of our Constitution. No one else is going to do it for us. Reform begins with you."