Birthers

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:09 pm

goathead wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: I guess I don't have much trust in the human animal's ability to fill out bureaucratic forms...
That's ok fishy, I have no trust in the bureaucrats ability, to make a form that human animals are able to fill out.

by using human animal's as a term is this some way of looking hmmmm down on the population, who are not in goverment service?
are we well less then in some ways?

i include myself in "human animal" and I am a bureaucrat. I don't remember what the process was in choosing that term, although I know I rejected one or two before settling on that. Did I reject "mankind"? "people"? I don't know. And I would guess that that's a particularly difficult form, given that information has to come from the mother and father when they are stressed.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:17 pm

jkisha wrote:I just finished reading a book titled "Free Lunch. How the wealthiest Americans enrich themselves at government expense (and stick you with the bill)" by David Cay Johnston. It's a relatively easy read, but it took me forever to get through because each chapter made me angrier than the one I just read and I had to put the book down to give my blood pressure time to return to a normal level.

No one party was spared in this book, though some of the most egregious stories, to my way of thinking, were committed by Republicans. But the main reason I kept reading was to get to the last chapter titled "What to do?" I'll just leave you with his final thought:

"In the end, we must be the ones who make our government work, fulfilling the promise of the preamble of our Constitution. No one else is going to do it for us. Reform begins with you."

+1

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:29 pm

[youtube][/youtube]

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:21 am

theCryptofishist wrote: i include myself in "human animal" and I am a bureaucrat. I don't remember what the process was in choosing that term, although I know I rejected one or two before settling on that. Did I reject "mankind"? "people"? I don't know. And I would guess that that's a particularly difficult form, given that information has to come from the mother and father when they are stressed.

I wonder about the process, why not collect the info before, then just have to get the stats at time of birth? Hmmmm, no makes to much sense....

Guess I am just a little bureaucrat sensitive right now. Been having to deal with PSM's, MOC's, BLM Bullshit... wouldn't give you a nickel for all of the alphabet agencies and forms right now.

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:28 pm

CNN has a recent debunking of the birther stuff:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... her-claim/

Of course, it's all a media conspiracy. Except for Fox.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:08 pm

goathead wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: i include myself in "human animal" and I am a bureaucrat. I don't remember what the process was in choosing that term, although I know I rejected one or two before settling on that. Did I reject "mankind"? "people"? I don't know. And I would guess that that's a particularly difficult form, given that information has to come from the mother and father when they are stressed.
I wonder about the process, why not collect the info before, then just have to get the stats at time of birth? Hmmmm, no makes to much sense....

Guess I am just a little bureaucrat sensitive right now. Been having to deal with PSM's, MOC's, BLM Bullshit... wouldn't give you a nickel for all of the alphabet agencies and forms right now.

I was thinking about my answer after I signed out, and I realized that you might have read it as "human animal" as an inferior subset of human, and that would be pretty offensive.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:21 pm

I'd swear you had this exact same conversation with someone before on here.

I read it as an observation myself.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:00 pm

This has been a fun discussion...and I hope it continues, but in REAL life, Obama IS an American citizen...and WAS born in the U.S.A. Like I said..."grasping at straws!"

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:22 pm

Saw the female representative of the tea party interviewed today, and she admitted that the obama birth thing was settled, but persisted in wanting new legislation about presidential requirements.

She still made a lot more sense than trump.

You should see teabaggers trying to recruit me.(generally at gun shows)
They have a little trouble figuring out how I fit into the politics as a heavily armed middle of the roader.
They all sound very reasonable until they start speaking on camera.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:35 pm

Ive much more respect for Libertarians...Tea Baggers are...dumb.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:09 pm

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:No way to prove this, but I'd bet that had McCain won, his birth certificate would never have become an issue. It has never been an issue before with any other president or candidate. Why this one? Just the fact that the other side lost certainly doesn't explain it.

I disagree. but as you say, it's moot.

perhaps, it's never been an issue, because, well, it's never been an issue.
Maybe, all former prez's and candidates were born on U.S. soil?
interesing, that both could have that in common, in theory, anyway.
can you say "Manchuria"?..........hahahaa
There are those who would say, people disagreed, or made fun of JFK because he was Catholic.........

And, I'd say, because "the other side" lost, exactly explains it:
They're looking for ANYTHING to reverse what they don't agree with.
and, I'd bet, if the shoe was on the other foot it'd be the same....just different faces, pro and con.

Since when, has not "the loser" looked for anything they can find, to overturn a vote they disagree with?
Didn't the final, long after the fact re-counts in Florida disprove the accusations against "the winners"?
Could not the "hanging chad" debate, be somewhat similar?
in that, the losers grasp at whatever they can, to "win"?

Cripes. if he's eligible, and, you believe it, why care what others say about it?
If not worried, why does it matter?

Doesn't take a whole lot of thinking. GWB was a white guy, and monkeys have a different connotation and history when they are used to portray a white guy than they do when portraying a black guy. For the white guy portrayed as a monkey the meaning is he is silly or stupid. For the black guy it is implying he is subhuman.

no, realy?
that's pretty shallow, JK.
totally debatable, the context.
how do you know, they weren't implying the prez is silly or stupid?
and, how do you know, they didn't mean GWB was not sub human?

sure, there are people in both camps......but, why always accuse those you disagree with, of the worst possible thoughts and inferences?

and, why can't something be non pc, and funny?

I dunno, just seem a "tempest in a teapot" in the whole scheme of things.

While you waller in ignorance, a quick search demonstrates the NY Times covered the issue of McCain's birth during the campaign.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/po ... ccain.html

By his own book Obama recalls times in Indonesia, being mentored by Frank the Marxist and sunrise Muslim calls to prayer as favorite parts of the day. Couple that with borrowing more money in 2 years than any president, offending our closest allies while bowing to our doubtful friends, steamrolling unknown legislation via questionable tactics,,,,, legislation with permanent monetary consequences on the entire economy,,,, and you DARE to say it is all about RACISM??? FUCK YOU! That card has been played way too many times! Find another defense for someone who actually thinks asthma comes from coal,,,, that there are 57 states,,,, that the U.S. invented the automobile,,,, that gubmint provides wealth and prosperity. Take yer fucking rose-colored glasses off and give your head a shake! This country is on the verge of collapse and Mr. Obama is on the campaign trail!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:31 pm

By his own book Obama recalls times in Indonesia, being mentored by Frank the Marxist and sunrise Muslim calls to prayer as favorite parts of the day. Couple that ...

Couple that?
Is this supposed to be significant somehow?

What am I not reading into it?

You seem to be suggesting we go back to the policies that sunk the economy, the trickle up wealth re-distribution looting the country?
Or am I mistaken?

Taxes on high income have gone from 95% to 30% to 0 in many cases, GE being a great example.
Obviously our solution is to tax teachers!?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:37 pm

Obama's citizenship has nothing to do with Donald Trump's refusal to disavow raping and murdering a young girl in 1990.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:45 pm

gyre wrote:
By his own book Obama recalls times in Indonesia, being mentored by Frank the Marxist and sunrise Muslim calls to prayer as favorite parts of the day. Couple that ...
Couple that?
Is this supposed to be significant somehow?

What am I not reading into it?

You seem to be suggesting we go back to the policies that sunk the economy, the trickle up wealth re-distribution looting the country?
Or am I mistaken?

Taxes on high income have gone from 95% to 30% to 0 in many cases, GE being a great example.
Obviously our solution is to tax teachers!?

I thought the context of this thread was about origins, intelligent leadership and consequences of poor judgment. So let's just all give up, fall on our knees and go the way of every other declining civilization. Why bother? Just explain to me one thing, what other country has produced more, given more and provided more for the entire world? And how was that accomplished, by Liberty? or Tyranny?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:04 am

Trishntek wrote:
gyre wrote:
By his own book Obama recalls times in Indonesia, being mentored by Frank the Marxist and sunrise Muslim calls to prayer as favorite parts of the day. Couple that ...
Couple that?
Is this supposed to be significant somehow?

What am I not reading into it?

You seem to be suggesting we go back to the policies that sunk the economy, the trickle up wealth re-distribution looting the country?
Or am I mistaken?

Taxes on high income have gone from 95% to 30% to 0 in many cases, GE being a great example.
Obviously our solution is to tax teachers!?
I thought the context of this thread was about origins, intelligent leadership and consequences of poor judgment. So let's just all give up, fall on our knees and go the way of every other declining civilization. Why bother? Just explain to me one thing, what other country has produced more, given more and provided more for the entire world? And how was that accomplished, by Liberty? or Tyranny?

nice, TnT.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:07 am

Glad you understood it.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:14 am

listening to what others say, and thinking about it in context, helps me with that.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:27 am

Did occur to me.
Feel free to explain.

Still don't see how personal experiences are so significant.
I've had discussions with nazis and teabaggers (not metaphorical nazis either) and I work directly with many republican senators and other officials.
Does that couple with something else to mean something?
Sounds like nonsense to me.

I'm hearing some kind of criticism of the only attempts to salvage this country.
I'm not hearing better options here, though I feel there are some.
We're not getting to them by going backwards and heading closer to tyranny.
We've been on that one road for a long time.
How does that look to you?

Who believes we are the exception to history when it comes to maintaining democracy without a functional economy?

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:28 am

jkisha wrote:If that's pretty human, can you please tell me how I can resign my membership to humanity?

You don't want to do that JK cuz then us paramedics get called out to the scene and then we will talk about it over lunch for a week

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:32 am

Sail Man wrote:
jkisha wrote:If that's pretty human, can you please tell me how I can resign my membership to humanity?
You don't want to do that JK cuz then us paramedics get called out to the scene and then we will talk about it over lunch for a week

probably with the pathologists....

Well you cut up anyone interesting lately?

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:40 am

gyre wrote:Did occur to me.
Feel free to explain.

Still don't see how personal experiences are so significant.
I've had discussions with nazis and teabaggers (not metaphorical nazis either) and I work directly with many republican senators and other officials.
Does that couple with something else to mean something?
Sounds like nonsense to me.

I'm hearing some kind of criticism of the only attempts to salvage this country.
I'm not hearing better options here, though I feel there are some.
We're not getting to them by going backwards and heading closer to tyranny.
We've been on that one road for a long time.
How does that look to you?

Who believes we are the exception to history when it comes to maintaining democracy without a functional economy?

I quite frankly believe the country is not on the priority list of most of those in power today. Banks, Insurance companies, the FEDERAL RESERVE and the IMF are the priorities of those in authority IMO. The U.S.A. has simply become a feed bag for the world,,,, and it won't be long until it is purposely emptied. Not by lack of effort, but by overwhelming debt and policies, regulations and laws which perpetuate those conditions.

Most of you continuously grip about the uber rich. The U.S. Government takes in over $TWO TRILLION per year. Just how much SHOULD the gubmint be allowed to consume? Is there no limit on the greed in D.C.? Like I say,,,, let us bow to the East and hand them all we have and be grateful for whatever they feel is appropriate for our existence.

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:49 am

Trishntek wrote:
gyre wrote:Did occur to me.
Feel free to explain.

Still don't see how personal experiences are so significant.
I've had discussions with nazis and teabaggers (not metaphorical nazis either) and I work directly with many republican senators and other officials.
Does that couple with something else to mean something?
Sounds like nonsense to me.

I'm hearing some kind of criticism of the only attempts to salvage this country.
I'm not hearing better options here, though I feel there are some.
We're not getting to them by going backwards and heading closer to tyranny.
We've been on that one road for a long time.
How does that look to you?

Who believes we are the exception to history when it comes to maintaining democracy without a functional economy?
I quite frankly believe the country is not on the priority list of most of those in power today. Banks, Insurance companies, the FEDERAL RESERVE and the IMF are the priorities of those in authority IMO. The U.S.A. has simply become a feed bag for the world,,,, and it won't be long until it is purposely emptied. Not by lack of effort, but by overwhelming debt and policies, regulations and laws which perpetuate those conditions.

Most of you continuously grip about the uber rich. The U.S. Government takes in over $TWO TRILLION per year. Just how much SHOULD the gubmint be allowed to consume? Is there no limit on the greed in D.C.? Like I say,,,, let us bow to the East and hand them all we have and be grateful for whatever they feel is appropriate for our existence.

You are confusing the problem, it's not the government per se. It's how the government has been allowed to become corrupted by the military industrial complex (especially industry) for their own personal gain.

As long as they keep us arguing about all of the peripheral issues they know they can continue to get away with their corruption and greed as they continue to steal our hard earned tax dollars.

As long as business can dictate to (bribe) our elected officials, the problems will all persist. Spending billions of dollars to fund elections and to pay lobbyists is obscene.

I posit that if we make paid lobbying illegal and fund all elections from our tax dollars, we would have very little to complain about. It would then be one person one vote, not one dollar one vote.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:57 am

I agree, JK.

My biggest concern is currently banking reform, but there is more than that.

An expert on C Rose show pointed out that there were more prosecutions during the minor past banking scandal than from our enormous recent one.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:00 pm

JK wrote:

I posit that if we make paid lobbying illegal and fund all elections from our tax dollars, we would have very little to complain about. It would then be one person one vote, not one dollar one vote

Jk, we have discussed that face to face and are in agreement. I realize corporate tax breaks, lobbying, earmarks and cronyism are peripheral symptoms of a greater problem.

BUT!!! Giving the GOVERNMENT (out of respect only for you JK) more revenue will not solve the problem! SPENDING is the problem, not revenue!

So getting back to the OP,,, Barry Soetoro has been hidden in secrecy and his records sealed by Presidential order. I guess this is no problem to anybody.
[youtube][/youtube]

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:51 pm

Spending is PART of the problem. The bigger part of the problem is what the money is being spent FOR.

For example, the ~2.5 trillion dollar surplus that SHOULD have been kept and invested to meet obligations was stolen from us to pay for...well who knows what? Two unfunded wars? Corporate welfare? The list goes on and on.

Medicare and medicaid should not be a problem today except that sometime back when I was in my twenties some republicans were convinced by corporate inetersts to privatize medicine because it would keep costs down and even lower costs because of competition in the free market place. Up until that point, it was all not for profit, and affordable for most everyone.

Additionally, the wealthy are taxed less today than they have been in over fifty years, yet their incomes have grown faster than any time in history and the middle class is losing wealth as wages decline. It's time that those who are benefitting the most contribute more to fix the deficit that the policies they lobbied to put into place helped to cause.

I could go on and on...but I'll spare you.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:24 pm

jkisha wrote:Spending is PART of the problem. The bigger part of the problem is what the money is being spent FOR.

For example, the ~2.5 trillion dollar surplus that SHOULD have been kept and invested to meet obligations was stolen from us to pay for...well who knows what? Two unfunded wars? Corporate welfare? The list goes on and on.

Medicare and medicaid should not be a problem today except that sometime back when I was in my twenties some republicans were convinced by corporate inetersts to privatize medicine because it would keep costs down and even lower costs because of competition in the free market place. Up until that point, it was all not for profit, and affordable for most everyone.

Additionally, the wealthy are taxed less today than they have been in over fifty years, yet their incomes have grown faster than any time in history and the middle class is losing wealth as wages decline. It's time that those who are benefitting the most contribute more to fix the deficit that the policies they lobbied to put into place helped to cause.

I could go on and on...but I'll spare you.

The surplus you speak of was entirely hypothetical! It was a BUDGET surplus over a given number of years. The country's DEBT was still FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS at the end of the 20th Century! The actual MONEY you speak of in the above-mentioned surplus was only in the budget and had absolutely nothing to do with actual revenues and expenditures.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:43 pm

foogin beauroctats!!!!
they use accounting, to make anything they want, sound true.

Surplus?
well, only if you're not using it to pay the money you owe already.

Spending cuts:

well, sort of. or, just a reduction in how much spending grows.

I would bet, that NO ONE, knows how much money the gov. gets, has, and spends.
Not to any degree of accuracy.....hell, I see most numbers they use as a "range".....

"A savings of 4 to 60 billion dollars" (numbers pulled completely out of my hat, Rocky).
Well, which is it?

"A savings of 30 billion dollars, over the next 10 years"........well, maybe if ALL things in the world and our economy stay the same, and, if the succeeding administration does not change something.

Crap.
Face it, they ALL lie. Period.
They tell us things, they know are not true, use numbers they know are false, and, laugh all the way to their retirements and cushy mansions.

They've totally succeeded in making us fight with each other, over piddly crap, that can't be proven accurately, at all.

We all know, the national debt, will never be paid, or gone.
And, perhaps, that's as it should be.

But, these "ticks on society" who spend our money, recklessly (we all have our definition of "reckless spending" but, I think, can all agree it happens a lot), and, then, say they "need more revenue", to meet the real needs of the people, and their responsibility to same.

I'd totally go for, a program, where folks from both sides, take turns pointing out "wasteful" spending, and eliminate it. No argument, it's just gone.
When they were done, we'd have a super lean gov, for sure.
and, yes, there would be suffering.
But, we'd see what "really" (by definition of both sides agreeing it stays) needs to be part of gov. and, get to work it, from there.

I'd bet, we'd find both sides much more reasonable, if this were happening, knowing the "other side" can ax anything they want, as well.

Let it be whittled down, or chopped, as the case may be.
At the end, we'll see "what's what" and, rebuild, hopefully, in a better way.

*steps off soapbox*

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:43 pm

Trishntek wrote:
jkisha wrote:Spending is PART of the problem. The bigger part of the problem is what the money is being spent FOR.

For example, the ~2.5 trillion dollar surplus that SHOULD have been kept and invested to meet obligations was stolen from us to pay for...well who knows what? Two unfunded wars? Corporate welfare? The list goes on and on.

Medicare and medicaid should not be a problem today except that sometime back when I was in my twenties some republicans were convinced by corporate inetersts to privatize medicine because it would keep costs down and even lower costs because of competition in the free market place. Up until that point, it was all not for profit, and affordable for most everyone.

Additionally, the wealthy are taxed less today than they have been in over fifty years, yet their incomes have grown faster than any time in history and the middle class is losing wealth as wages decline. It's time that those who are benefitting the most contribute more to fix the deficit that the policies they lobbied to put into place helped to cause.

I could go on and on...but I'll spare you.
The surplus you speak of was entirely hypothetical! It was a BUDGET surplus over a given number of years. The country's DEBT was still FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS at the end of the 20th Century! The actual MONEY you speak of in the above-mentioned surplus was only in the budget and had absolutely nothing to do with actual revenues and expenditures.

You are incorrect. That is the amount of money that was actually taken in from payroll deductions that is in excess of what has already already been paid out. REAL DOLLARS. And has nothing to do with the budget except for the fact that rather than keeping that money separate and investing it as it should have been, it was borrowed and spent by congress for other things, replacing the money with worthless IOUs.

Now that baby boomers are retiring there is no money in the budget to pay back those IOUs. And I'll be damned if you think you ar me or anybody else should be penalized because congress spent the money that should have been set aside for when it was needed.

If you either doubt what I say or are having a hard time understanding it, a simple google search will provide all of the information you need to verify the truth of what I just explained. Though I'm sure you'll find many articles that explain it better than I did. (but my facts are correct)

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:48 pm

I'm sorry JK,,,, can you put that in some kind of 1+1= sort of thing? Taking in payroll deductions that have not been spent? I don't understand,,,, are you talking about SS?

If that is the case, well why do you think the FED is printing all those $TRILLIONS? To fill that hole with the number of dollars needed. But the purchasing power of those dollars will be greatly diminished to the point of being virtually worthless. But the FED will generate tremendous income by selling those dollars with interest. And the greatest thing about it is,,,, all they have to do is print it! There's no time, effort represented other than the fact over the years we put our hard-earned cash to it by coercion. But the dollars we get out of it (I don't believe it will be a part of my future) won't be worth anywhere near the dollars we put into it.

How many times and how many ways can it be said, the biggest corporation in the world is not GE, Toyota or even the U.S. Government. The largest corporation in the world is the Federal Reserve. They have 22% (they certainly don't mind if gold prices skyrocket) of the world's gold in their possession and print the World's Reserve Currency. Oil is traded worldwide with U.S. Dollars. ONE of the reasons oil is going up is because the U.S. Dollar is going down. ANOTHER reason is totally unregulated speculative markets.

There's this big-ass hole of debt and there aren't enough U.S. Dollars to fill it. And to the delight of some very powerful and influential people this is an opportunity of a generation.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:33 pm

Ygmir..I told you it was silly! But political games are downright nasty these days! And Obama's election, really shows how Racist this country still is! When idiots like Bush Jr. or Sarah Palin get soo much support, its a clear indication that we are about to split as a country.