Birthers

[Trishntek]

First. The US ranks far behind most other developed countries in health outcomes for the general population.

Apples and oranges,,,, how many of those other countries send their young and able to fight other countrys' battles? How many of those other countries count a live birth the moment a newborn takes its first breath? How many of those other countries take the extreme steps to save the premature and the very old?

Second. The US outspends every other developed country for these inferior outcomes.

This statement assumes the first statement is accurate. When you have a health problem in this country, you receive diagnostics and treatment ASAP. The variations are tremendous in other countries, which do not have to continuously watch their backs for a lawyer ready to make their lives miserable.

Third. We are one of the few (if any?) countries that treate health care as a for-profit industry.

And because of that incentive, we are the world leader in pharmaceuticals, diagnostic imaging, prosthetics, cancer treatments and minimally invasive procedures.

Fourth. It has not always been this way, but you are too young to remember when ALL health care in this country was strictly not-for-profit.

Yes, and I remember physicians making house calls too! If you take a serious look at health-care costs, you will notice since Medicare was established, costs have increased much more than before it existed. R&D was left up to academia, which was also dependent on private funding. GOV did not invent Xray. GOV did not invent antibiotics. GOV did not invent replacement lenses for glaucoma patients. If there is no monetary benefit, what incentive is proposed?

Fifth. It was the Republicans, who had the ear of the private sector that slowly was convinced that health care costs could be kept down if health care was converted to for-profit.

One name only: John Edwards

Sixth. The only people that have benefited with the conversion from nonprofit to for-profit have been large corporations and insurance companies, as costs were kept down at the expense of people being treated so that these corporations could reap huge profits.

How dare they profit on the NEEDS of PEOPLE? So let's give away food, gasoline, electricity, natural gas, building materials (ohhhh I guess they already give away complete houses!) and education! YAY! Everything is FREEEEEEE!!!! YIPPPEEEEEE!!!

[TomServo]

[Elderberry]

Don't let the propaganda influence you.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning, I would advise you to take your own advice.

[Elderberry]

First. The US ranks far behind most other developed countries in health outcomes for the general population.

Apples and oranges,,,, how many of those other countries send their young and able to fight other countrys' battles? How many of those other countries count a live birth the moment a newborn takes its first breath? How many of those other countries take the extreme steps to save the premature and the very old?

Second. The US outspends every other developed country for these inferior outcomes.

This statement assumes the first statement is accurate. When you have a health problem in this country, you receive diagnostics and treatment ASAP. The variations are tremendous in other countries, which do not have to continuously watch their backs for a lawyer ready to make their lives miserable.

Third. We are one of the few (if any?) countries that treate health care as a for-profit industry.

And because of that incentive, we are the world leader in pharmaceuticals, diagnostic imaging, prosthetics, cancer treatments and minimally invasive procedures.

Fourth. It has not always been this way, but you are too young to remember when ALL health care in this country was strictly not-for-profit.

Yes, and I remember physicians making house calls too! If you take a serious look at health-care costs, you will notice since Medicare was established, costs have increased much more than before it existed. R&D was left up to academia, which was also dependent on private funding. GOV did not invent Xray. GOV did not invent antibiotics. GOV did not invent replacement lenses for glaucoma patients. If there is no monetary benefit, what incentive is proposed?

Fifth. It was the Republicans, who had the ear of the private sector that slowly was convinced that health care costs could be kept down if health care was converted to for-profit.

One name only: John Edwards

Sixth. The only people that have benefited with the conversion from nonprofit to for-profit have been large corporations and insurance companies, as costs were kept down at the expense of people being treated so that these corporations could reap huge profits.

How dare they profit on the NEEDS of PEOPLE? So let's give away food, gasoline, electricity, natural gas, building materials (ohhhh I guess they already give away complete houses!) and education! YAY! Everything is FREEEEEEE!!!! YIPPPEEEEEE!!!

You're hopeless, and a perfect example of someone that would cut off their own nose to spite their face.

If this is your idea of American Exceptionalism," I want no part of it.
http://www.alternet.org/news/150691/we're_?page=entire
It's a long read, but you can skip down to the bottom to view the " ten charts showing where we are exceptional."

[dr.placebo]

It would be interesting to see how many birthers reject the long form, and continue to believe that the president was born in (a) Kenya, (b) Indonesia, (c) Russia, (d) Mars, (e) all of the above.

Indeed, there are already reports that some prominent birthers are rejecting the new evidence as enthusiastically as they rejected the previous evidence:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

Why does this irrational rejectionism happen? I do not really understand it, but I'm starting to see articles that address the problem.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03 ... ris-mooney

Having this be an intrinsic weakness of human reasoning fits my personal observations.

[goathead]

Very Good.



Hope this will help sort out people with honest questions

from those who are really fucking nuts.

[Elderberry]

It would be interesting to see how many birthers reject the long form, and continue to believe that the president was born in (a) Kenya, (b) Indonesia, (c) Russia, (d) Mars, (e) all of the above.

Indeed, there are already reports that some prominent birthers are rejecting the new evidence as enthusiastically as they rejected the previous evidence:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

Why does this irrational rejectionism happen? I do not really understand it, but I'm starting to see articles that address the problem.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03 ... ris-mooney

Having this be an intrinsic weakness of human reasoning fits my personal observations.

That Mother Jones article was a good read.

[theCryptofishist]

Wait. X-rays were a german invention...

(Edited to add:) I got a thrill every time I went to Roetgun in TILIK.

[Elderberry]

Somebody, I think, posted here that Clinton was the original Birther?
I don't think that is true. If you were the poster, could you be so kind as to point me to a link that might validate your claim?

Thanks,

[TomServo]

Somebody, I think, posted here that Clinton was the original Birther?
I don't think that is true. If you were the poster, could you be so kind as to point me to a link that might validate your claim?

Thanks,

I didn't post it, but in his recent announcement, he mentioned that being brought up by her, or someone.. in the campaign. And, he did produce a certificate at some point, but that wasn't good enough for the Birthers. Even the long form isn't good enough. Donald Trump is really "proud and honored" for being responsible for the release....but still wants to look at the Certificate.

[Trishntek]

Wait. X-rays were a german invention...

(Edited to add:) I got a thrill every time I went to Roetgun in TILIK.

November 8th 1895 Wilhelm Conrade Roentgen saw his own hand's skeleton cast onto the wall of his PRIVATE laboratory while experimenting with various light sources. Again,,,, I did not say in the U.S. my point was that GOV did not invent it.

edit to add this little antagonistic question: Is the entire birther debate designed to make BHO seem the VICTIM? So ALLLLL the "victims" will identify with the Victim in Chief?

[TomServo]

you got us! DAMN!

[gyre]

I don't now about germany, but france heavily finances basic research.


Was it shultz that recently came out in favor of basic research backed by govt, calling it key to economic survival?


I'm sure the weekly lie birther etc is all a conspiracy to get obama the 'not gullible' vote.


http://www.charlierose.com/guest/byname/george_shultz

[TomServo]

I think the Reps should invest every penny they have into an investigation! And keep doing so, and talking about it till 2012!

[gyre]

Infant mortality exceeds haiti here.

That is factored into the science of public health too, along with the unavailability of health care to the vast majority of the usa.

By the republican standard, Hussein's iraq had better health care than the usa.
(Those who qualified were flown out for swiss care.)

[Trishntek]

JK wrote:

You're hopeless, and a perfect example of someone that would cut off their own nose to spite their face.

If this is your idea of American Exceptionalism," I want no part of it.
http://www.alternet.org/news/150691/we're_?page=entire
It's a long read, but you can skip down to the bottom to view the " ten charts showing where we are exceptional."
_________________
JK

When Harris pollsters asked US citizens aged 18 and older what it means to be an American the answers surprised no one. Nearly 60 percent used the word freedom. The second most common word was patriotism. Only 4 percent mentioned the word community.
I would really like to know the exact question asked and a more specific demographic and science behind the poll.

Citizens in other countries are as critical of their governments as we are. But unlike us they do not criticize the importance of government itself or the fundamental role it plays in boosting the general welfare. They do not like to pay taxes, but they understand the necessity of taxes not only in building a public infrastructure but also in building a personal security infrastructure.
What are the Twenty-Six other countries? Have they been sucking the public tit for more than one generation? I'm thinking Germans, Italians, Russians and Chinese have experienced Socialism, Communism, Naziism and Catastrophic Social Decay due to these All Knowing/All Benevolent Governments. So far in this article I've not read anything about the GENEROSITY of America which is unsurpassed in the history of all mankind.

The data is crystal clear. Since 1980, the income share of the upper 1 percent of Americans has doubled. The share going to the top 0.1 percent, those earning more than $1.2 million a year, has quadrupled. Meanwhile the average worker’s wages have declined. In 2004 a full-time worker’s wage was 11 percent lower than in 1973, adjusting for inflation, even though productivity had risen 78 percent between 1973 and 2004
Thinking about what else happened since 1980,,,,, well there's that INTERNET thing,,,, and the breakup of MA BELL and AT&T,,,, Cellular and alas the DIGITAL AGE. If we go back to nothing but snail mail and hard wired phones, that would employ a whole bunch of people! Unskilled labor is so extremely cheap because there is a huge SURPLUS of unskilled laborers. Meanwhile the inventors, adapters and entrepreneurs have seized the majority of the cash. When productivity is up 78% over THIRTY-ONE years, that means productivity is out-pacing population growth. With all these helmet laws, seat belt laws, antismoking laws and swell healthcare we get in this country, we are so good at PRODUCING STUFF, the consumers don't produce as much as they consume. The herd is artificially inflated due to the Darwinian Survival of the Fittest is not allowed to be exercised! THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

But recent data contradicts that fundamental tenet of American exceptionalism. A Brookings Institution report comparing economic mobility in the United States and other countries concludes, "…"Starting at the bottom of the earnings ladder is more of a handicap in the United States than it is in other countries." And more broadly notes, "there is growing evidence of less intergenerational economic mobility in the United States than in many other rich industrialized countries.â€

[JStep]

First. The US ranks far behind most other developed countries in health outcomes for the general population.

Apples and oranges,,,,

<snip>

Have you researched or read anything about this issue at ALL? I can tell JK has, his post was right on the money. You argue it as if it were hypothetical theory when he's stating well researched, published and non-controversial facts.

[Trishntek]

But American exceptionalism has bred a culture and value system that have in turn embraced policies that have made the pursuit of happiness exceedingly difficult.
Hard work is a bitch ain't it?

As I mentioned at the beginning of this article, at the founding of the American Republic a key difference between the Old World and the New World was that in the New World a baby survived. Today, the numbers paint a different picture. The proportion of infants that survive in the United States is one of the lowest in the industrialized world.
As mentioned previously, I would like to know how these "other countries" count their newborns. Some wait FIVE DAYS before officially counting it as a live birth. Statistics must be equally weighed according to the various sources considered. Are prematurely born infants requiring TWO MONTHS in NICU counted in all countries? Oh wait,,,, very few public health care facilities even have a NICU,,,, that's an "AMERICAN THING".

American private giving during the tsunami crisis was significant, indeed; one month after the tsunami, it was over $400 million, outpacing the U.S. government pledge of $350 million.http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2676
lThis does not include the U.S. Military invovement.

Taking a look at charitable giving, by country, as a percent of GDP, the results are interesting. The United States gives almost 1.8 percent of our GDP each year. Canada and England are second with around 0.7 percent of GDP. France is close to the bottom with charitable contributions around 0.15 percent of its GDP. http://www.antonnews.com/columns/mcmill ... iving.html

These babies are at high risk for one or more of the complications discussed above. However, most babies born after about 26 weeks gestation do survive (about 80 percent at 26 weeks), although they may face an extended stay in the newborn intensive care unit (NICU) (13).

Survival rates can vary greatly depending on factors other than gestational age. Factors that can improve survival rates include higher birthweight, female sex, history of prenatal treatment with corticosteroids (drugs that speed lung development) and singleton birth (not part of a twin or other multiple birth) (14). Unfortunately, about 25 percent of these very premature babies develop serious lasting disabilities, and up to half may have milder problems, such as learning and behavioral problems (15). http://www.marchofdimes.com/baby/premature_indepth.html

[littleflower]

First. The US ranks far behind most other developed countries in health outcomes for the general population.

Apples and oranges,,,,

<snip>

Have you researched or read anything about this issue at ALL? I can tell JK has, his post was right on the money. You argue it as if it were hypothetical theory when he's stating well researched, published and non-controversial facts.

if this was true, there would be little controversy.

JK ... i am astonished at the claim that doctors used to be non-profit.... seems to me they have always been very well paid. Insurance companies, as well .... are you really suggesting that they were once non-profit? one of my uncles was an executive for one of them ... he mentioned that medical insurance used to be purely catastrophic, people paid for their own care up to a certain point, and the insurance kicked in after that. i wish we could go back to this ... i am not one to run to the doctor often, and i take care of my health ... but i am stuck paying high prices anyhow, dammit. and no, i don't expect it to get any better.

if republicans are responsible for changing this system, well, BFD? that was years ago. the truth is, a change to government run health care would be closer to what we have now than to what we used to have.

and don't tell me we will be better off with obamacare while talking about history. obamacare is the future, not the past. don't tell me health care is better in Canada or the U.K., either. you have your sources, i have mine.

i've never been very good at trusting any one set of opinion makers. i could go on and on, but i seriously doubt i have any more chance of changing anyone's mind than JK does ... so i think i'll mozy on over to the bar .......... i'll set out some drinkies for anyone who's in the mood!

[JStep]

First. The US ranks far behind most other developed countries in health outcomes for the general population.

Apples and oranges,,,,

<snip>

Have you researched or read anything about this issue at ALL? I can tell JK has, his post was right on the money. You argue it as if it were hypothetical theory when he's stating well researched, published and non-controversial facts.

if this was true, there would be little controversy.

And that's exactly why there is none!

[littleflower]

<snip>

Have you researched or read anything about this issue at ALL? I can tell JK has, his post was right on the money. You argue it as if it were hypothetical theory when he's stating well researched, published and non-controversial facts.

if this was true, there would be little controversy.

And that's exactly why there is none!

Yay!!!! then we all agree!!!!!

[JStep]

if this was true, there would be little controversy.

And that's exactly why there is none!

Yay!!!! then we all agree!!!!!

Cheers! (Funny how this went from the Birther/racism topic to Americas insanely low ROI on health care.)

[gyre]

The difference between canada and the usa is very simple.
They have health care.
Some people here have health care.

Obama care (boy using that word tells the whole story, doesn't it?) is surely no solution with all the obstruction dealt with.
But it is such an improvement that no other option is offered at all by the health care denial industry representatives (republicans).
The old 'go fuck yourself' system is predicted to collapse without intervention, and everyone already forced out of it is at risk.

The only solution is to close the industry totally.
How it is replaced is an option, but there are no ideas from the republicans at all.


World public health care is a field of science, as I mentioned.
They typically vet their own statistics for these issues.
Medical care professionals here, and we have some of the best in child care in the world here, have gone to haiti to provide care and study the issues.
Isn't it interesting that with perhaps the best child care knowledge in the usa, and perhaps anywhere, my city has the worst infant death rates of any western country?

We have protesters at planned parenthood every day.
They remain silent on medical care.
Interesting.

We have received a federal grant (opposed by the republicans) to try to reduce the incredibly high rate of infant mortality here.
The real problem is the current care denial system though.

[JStep]

From Crooks and Liars:

Humiliation, Riding on a Carpet of Racism.

I want you to hear Baratunde Thurston's heartfelt message to Donald Trump and the media who enabled him. Be forewarned, it's NSFW in places. While it will likely have no effect on those who most need to hear the message, it had a profound impact on me, and I think it will have one on you, too. In his intro he writes this: I then thought of this fetid, smug, hate-filled, wealthy white man taking credit for the release and yet still not being satisfied. It does not matter how long we’ve been in these United States. We will never be American. I was especially moved by his direct message to Donald Trump, a man who "was given everything" and lives the life he does with the freedom to do what he did because he was given everything. I don't want to hear about The Apprentice. I don't want to hear about your new cologne. I don't want to hear about the new tower you're building in whatever f--king town. That cologne smells of racism. That tower is built on the blood of disrespected slaves and freedom fighters. And that show is merely a showcase for the dishonor you have brought on anyone who would call themselves an American. Adam Serwer writes: Aside from being one of the most idiotic moments in American political history, this marks a level of personal humiliation no previous president has ever been asked to endure. Other presidents have been the target of crazy conspiracy theories, sure, but few have been as self-evidently absurd as birtherism. None has been so clearly rooted in anxieties about the president’s racial identity, because no previous American president has been black. B-Serious: He has been called everything but a child of God and, in two short years, has been portrayed as anything but what he truly is . . . A man, worthy of the respect and dignity of his own words and reputation. Instead, people have sought to attack the very foundation of his existence . . . his birth. And the sad part in all of this? It’s become par for the course. Not because President Obama has never answered his critics. Not because the President has never released information. Not because the President has allowed others to shape the debate. It’s because there never should have been a “debateâ€

[Trishntek]

Let us pray!

[youtube][/youtube]

A man, worthy of the respect and dignity of his own words and reputation.

Pray tell his reputation prior to the year 2000?

[Elderberry]

If you want to understand the background and evolution of health care in this country I suggest you read "Free Lunch" by David Cay Johnston. I guarantee you will be surprised and enlightened. (and possibly enraged.)

[dr.placebo]

November 8th 1895 Wilhelm Conrade Roentgen saw his own hand's skeleton cast onto the wall of his PRIVATE laboratory while experimenting with various light sources. Again,,,, I did not say in the U.S. my point was that GOV did not invent it.

edit to add this little antagonistic question: Is the entire birther debate designed to make BHO seem the VICTIM? So ALLLLL the "victims" will identify with the Victim in Chief?

Two points.

1. Government does not invent anything. It does, however, provide some funding for quite a few basic inventions. Consider the machines and network we are using to have this exchange. Many of the basic elements were government funded. Government also provides funding for quite a bit of medical research.

2. Is the birther "debate" a setup by Obama? And I suppose that the evolution "debate" was a conspiracy instigated by Darwin and Huxley. And NASA staged the moon landing. And Nathanial Brandon was a CIA agent whose mission was to destroy Ayn Rand. There is, apparently, no cliff of fantasy over which someone is not willing to drive the vehicle of discourse.

[goathead]

Infant mortality exceeds haiti here.

That is factored into the science of public health too, along with the unavailability of health care to the vast majority of the usa.

By the republican standard, Hussein's iraq had better health care than the usa.
(Those who qualified were flown out for swiss care.)

And where are you getting your numbers from?

just a glance at these numbers say BULLSHIT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ality_rate

[gyre]

CDC, WHO, every group with any interest at all in this area has been here to study it.
LeBonheur Childresn's Hospital and St Jude are involved.

The murder rate is only an estimate, of course.
An exceptionally easy death to conceal.
We actually had one next door to a friend of mine, in my neighborhood.
Quite horrific too.

It's not an area I spend time on.
It's just in the news constantly.



http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... n-memphis/
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=5627305&page=1

http://www.memphismedicalnews.com/news. ... Story=1567

The World Health Organization (WHO) considers the threshold of a living fetus to be at 500 grams and 22 weeks gestation. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) stands by a more conservative estimate of 400 grams and 23 weeks. By comparison, doctors in Memphis consider a fetus to be living at 90 grams, which corresponds to 16 weeks gestation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/arts/ ... 22infa.htm

[goathead]

My mistake, I thought you where talking about the US overall.

So what do you think the problem is in Memphis?