Birthers

[gyre]

Even the experts aren't sure.
Poverty and lack of health care is obvious.
Fitness and obesity are also suggested.
Lack of education about prenatal care, often nonexistent is part of it.

Crime and heat are related to lack of fitness.
It isn't wise to walk or bike here unless armed.
In a way, being armed can be healthy for you.
When it's brutally hot, no one wants to go out.
Not that rare, but had a next door neighbor go for a run and die in the heat.
And he wasn't in poor shape.

It may all be poverty related, but the murder rate of children is such that we have billboards telling people not to murder their kids.
A bit surreal.
A lot of children with TBIs here.

This recent case, symptom or??
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/ ... mphis-home
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/ ... 9607.shtml

Worse is that they agree that the usa is very poor compared to otherwise equivalent countries for infant survival.
Memphis just seems to be worse.

I see a lot of ignorance as part of it, but why is another question.
There is a lot of this information available.
Too busy, too stupid to learn?
Don't know.

I gave someone a ride today to take a borrowed ten dollars to his kids for food.
He's trying to get his lawn mower fixed so he can make some money.
It's tough here.

[goathead]

After reading some of the articles on Memphis
Yep, you do have a problem
I don't think it is a Health Care problem though.

Sounds like some place I am glad I don't live.

[gyre]

People die waiting at the emergency room with emergency issues.
I nearly died due to inadequate care myself when I had good insurance.

Most people have no care of any kind until they get sick enough to get in through emergency.
I've learned which hospitals have better care.

Most people don't understand prenatal care and risks and have no family doctor.


When we had food stamp "reform" or whatever it was called, they simply threw 70% of the people getting them here off at the same time.
Crime spiraled, health issues did too.
Turns out people still want to eat, even when written off.
And they'll eat before they see a doctor.

Even presuming people were able to work, the jobs don't exist here.
What training is available consists entirely of bedpan jobs with poverty level pay.
Getting real job training while on food stamps still qualifies you for prison, as the republicans call it welfare fraud to do anything meaningful to change your class level.

That's the reality of it.

[Donna Matrix]

Okay.... you want jobs for people?

Exactly what are you willing to buy that is made in America by American hands and costs enough to allow those workers to live a decent life?

Socks? nope, don't have any sock factories.

Clothes? nope again.

What?

[Elderberry]

Okay.... you want jobs for people?

Exactly what are you willing to buy that is made in America by American hands and costs enough to allow those workers to live a decent life?

Socks? nope, don't have any sock factories.

Clothes? nope again.

What?

And if the Republicans have their way we will lose the battle for clean energy R&D and the subsequent jobs they will provide.

The days of workers in the US earning a living wage sewing clothes is long gone, stop wining about it and get trained for the jobs of the 21st century.

[ygmir]

Okay.... you want jobs for people?

Exactly what are you willing to buy that is made in America by American hands and costs enough to allow those workers to live a decent life?

Socks? nope, don't have any sock factories.

Clothes? nope again.

What?

*channeling Simon*

hookers and pot.

[theCryptofishist]

edit to add this little antagonistic question: Is the entire birther debate designed to make BHO seem the VICTIM? So ALLLLL the "victims" will identify with the Victim in Chief?

Apart from the fact that nobody has ever been elected to the White House on the "victim" ticket and it's a glaringly obvious dead-end strategy, this sort of near-instant reworking of the reason to go after his legitimacy/effectiveness/dignity as a president is what cheapens the larger dialogue, and begins to make the birthers in general, regardless of the particular beliefs of us on this thread, look like racists, grasping for any straw to hold against the man.
48 hours ago it was "he must have something to hide." Did I hear a "whoops, I guess he is a natural born citizen" from anyone anywhere?

[gyre]

I buy a lot of american tools.
Usually cost the same as the chinese crap too.
I just have to wait longer to get them.
Very disappointed when I got one recently switched to taiwan origin, and not as good either.
I called and complained about it.

When the chinese financing and loan scheme collapses, usa manufacture will be cheaper, provided any facilities and tooling are left.
Shipping and tariffs are often a major part of the cost now.
What happens when fuel costs go too high?

[gyre]

According to this group, the usa is 50th and dropping in infant health.

LAST in health care return on money spent.


LAST


http://www.everymothercounts.org/

[Elderberry]

edit to add this little antagonistic question: Is the entire birther debate designed to make BHO seem the VICTIM? So ALLLLL the "victims" will identify with the Victim in Chief?

Apart from the fact that nobody has ever been elected to the White House on the "victim" ticket and it's a glaringly obvious dead-end strategy, this sort of near-instant reworking of the reason to go after his legitimacy/effectiveness/dignity as a president is what cheapens the larger dialogue, and begins to make the birthers in general, regardless of the particular beliefs of us on this thread, look like racists, grasping for any straw to hold against the man.
48 hours ago it was "he must have something to hide." Did I hear a "whoops, I guess he is a natural born citizen" from anyone anywhere?

And now, Trump is calling Obama's intellect and ability to have gotten into Columbia let alone Harvard with what I understand were "his poor grades". Now Mr TNT what do you think that is a not so subtle inference? That a BLACK man could NEVER have made it into Harvard on his own merit alone, he must have taken advantage of some afirmative action program.

Racism, pure and simple. And if you don't realize it, you are either a closet racist yourself or totally out of touch with reality.

[mdmf007]

I buy a lot of american tools.
Usually cost the same as the chinese crap too.
I just have to wait longer to get them.
Very disappointed when I got one recently switched to taiwan origin, and not as good either.
I called and complained about it.

When the chinese financing and loan scheme collapses, usa manufacture will be cheaper, provided any facilities and tooling are left.
Shipping and tariffs are often a major part of the cost now.
What happens when fuel costs go too high?

Good point Gyre - also note - as fuel rates rise that labor cost advantage starts to not look so good. Case in point - Atlantic salmon (farmed salmon) from the fjords of Norway can be flash frozen whole - shipped to China the same day where they are processed and then shipped to the US market and sold as "Fresh". This is only possible when the per pound shipping rate enmasse is pennies. Start to double or triple the cost of fuel and this pseudo tariff wipes out the labor advantage in China.

Mdmf007

[Trishntek]

edit to add this little antagonistic question: Is the entire birther debate designed to make BHO seem the VICTIM? So ALLLLL the "victims" will identify with the Victim in Chief?

Apart from the fact that nobody has ever been elected to the White House on the "victim" ticket and it's a glaringly obvious dead-end strategy, this sort of near-instant reworking of the reason to go after his legitimacy/effectiveness/dignity as a president is what cheapens the larger dialogue, and begins to make the birthers in general, regardless of the particular beliefs of us on this thread, look like racists, grasping for any straw to hold against the man.
48 hours ago it was "he must have something to hide." Did I hear a "whoops, I guess he is a natural born citizen" from anyone anywhere?

And now, Trump is calling Obama's intellect and ability to have gotten into Columbia let alone Harvard with what I understand were "his poor grades". Now Mr TNT what do you think that is a not so subtle inference? That a BLACK man could NEVER have made it into Harvard on his own merit alone, he must have taken advantage of some afirmative action program.

Racism, pure and simple. And if you don't realize it, you are either a closet racist yourself or totally out of touch with reality.

Show me the transcripts! GWB had his publicly discerned, BC had his publicly discerned,,,, again why the secrecy? No racism whatsoever and whatever YOU ASSUME is implied is based upon your own bias.

[Elderberry]

Apart from the fact that nobody has ever been elected to the White House on the "victim" ticket and it's a glaringly obvious dead-end strategy, this sort of near-instant reworking of the reason to go after his legitimacy/effectiveness/dignity as a president is what cheapens the larger dialogue, and begins to make the birthers in general, regardless of the particular beliefs of us on this thread, look like racists, grasping for any straw to hold against the man.
48 hours ago it was "he must have something to hide." Did I hear a "whoops, I guess he is a natural born citizen" from anyone anywhere?

And now, Trump is calling Obama's intellect and ability to have gotten into Columbia let alone Harvard with what I understand were "his poor grades". Now Mr TNT what do you think that is a not so subtle inference? That a BLACK man could NEVER have made it into Harvard on his own merit alone, he must have taken advantage of some afirmative action program.

Racism, pure and simple. And if you don't realize it, you are either a closet racist yourself or totally out of touch with reality.

Show me the transcripts! GWB had his publicly discerned, BC had his publicly discerned,,,, again why the secrecy? No racism whatsoever and whatever YOU ASSUME is implied is based upon your own bias.

OMG you are a birther! There is no reason Obama needs to or even should make his college transcripts public. He was President of The Harvard Law Review for christ sake. you don't get there unless you are of superior intellect...most morons are aware of that, assuming they even have ever heard of the Harvard Law Review. This is only one of a myriad of articles a quick Google search will reveal. Now, that you have ben outer, I'm done with this conversation http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/fi ... eview.html

[Trishntek]

And Mr. Obama is a RACIST according to this article you cite!

The new president of the Review is Barack Obama, a 28-year-old graduate of Columbia University who spent four years heading a community development program for poor blacks on Chicago's South Side before enrolling in law school. His late father, Barack Obama, was a finance minister in Kenya and his mother, Ann Dunham, is an American anthropologist now doing fieldwork in Indonesia. Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii. ,,,, Until the 1970's the editors were picked on the basis of grades, and the president of the Law Review was the student with the highest academic rank. Among these were Elliot L. Richardson, the former Attorney General, and Irwin Griswold, a dean of the Harvard Law School and Solicitor General under Presidents Lyndon B. Johnson and Richard M. Nixon.

That system came under attack in the 1970's and was replaced by a program in which about half the editors are chosen for their grades and the other half are chosen by fellow students after a special writing competition. The new system, disputed when it began, was meant to help insure that minority students became editors of The Law Review.

Why did he not help any white, brown or yellow kids?

HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12705.html

As president of the Harvard Law Review and a law professor in Chicago, Senator Barack Obama refined his legal thinking, but left a scant paper trail. His name doesn't appear on any legal scholarship.

AHHHHHHH I can't help it! Pray tell, how does one become the President of the Harvard Law Review without writing an article of record?

[ygmir]

if he was a white president, JK, would you still be screaming racism?
or, would you allow questions regarding his history, education, etc. to stand?
(well, one might also add, were he not a democrat. I think you'd welcome said inquisitions on any republican)

one might think, you're hiding him, behind the racism shield?
or, perhaps, you are overly sensitive, trying to shield him because of his race?

seems other presidents have had these, and many other questions raised, explored, lied about, some times truth told, and moved on.

[Elderberry]

I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. Some people believe there is a God and there is nothing anyone could say to convince them otherwise. People will believe whatever they want to believe about Obama to spite what the facts clearly indicate. My arguments have not been influenced by my being a Democrat or that I personally feel Obama is doing a fine job. Both of those belief are subjective and subject to argument. The underlying, subliminal racism surrounding the attacks on the president regarding his place of birth and education are not.

[Donna Matrix]

the race card is always pulled out way too soon.

being president means you get criticized... If he wasn't being criticized [like in the media] then it would be racism...

Why not treat him like every other president?

Same with antisemitism.... can't say a bad word or otherwise you're condemned.... Maybe the Jews just like to condemn people?

And blacks can't defend themselves with using the race card....

Maybe?

[Trishntek]

Many of you know I detest labels and categorizing individuals or groups of people. Race, nationality, education and heritage are inconsequential when it is put forth willingly for the voters to discern. When there is hesitation or outright concealment of that information, it raises red flags.

JK,,,, are you implying BECAUSE BHO is BLACK, he should not be held to the same standard as other presidents were? I'm not sure what to think about it all because there simply IS INSUFFICIENT DATA. Whenever there are more questions than answers, I hold off drawing any conclusions. If anyone has locked there mind in one direction, my dear friend,,,,, it is you. I'm still asking questions and your answers raise more questions than they answer.

[Elderberry]

Insufficient data? Insufficient data for what?

[Trishntek]

Insufficient data? Insufficient data for what?

Well, let us begin with the last question first:

How does one become President of the Harvard Law Review without ever being published? Hell I've even been published in peer-review publications.

[Elderberry]

Insufficient data? Insufficient data for what?

Well, let us begin with the last question first:

How does one become President of the Harvard Law Review without ever being published? Hell I've even been published in peer-review publications.

Because being selected to the Harvard Law Review has no requirement of being published. Do your own google search for their requirements.

Why would these questions even be important to you or anyone else? Nobody cared that GWB's biggest accomplishment in school was being a cheer leader. I have no doubt that the only reason he got into school was because of daddies money. Obama didn't have that luxury and he was able to get into Harvard on his own merits and managed to graduate Magna Cum Laude.

If you question that, your ONLY motivation is that you think if you just dig deep enough you will certainly find that he got into Harvard because he was black and bootstrapped in because of affirmative action. Now if that's not racist, I don't know what is.

[ygmir]

Insufficient data? Insufficient data for what?

Well, let us begin with the last question first:

How does one become President of the Harvard Law Review without ever being published? Hell I've even been published in peer-review publications.

Because being selected to the Harvard Law Review has no requirement of being published. Do your own google search for their requirements.

Why would these questions even be important to you or anyone else? Nobody cared that GWB's biggest accomplishment in school was being a cheer leader. I have no doubt that the only reason he got into school was because of daddies money. Obama didn't have that luxury and he was able to get into Harvard on his own merits and managed to graduate Magna Cum Laude.

If you question that, your ONLY motivation is that you think if you just dig deep enough you will certainly find that he got into Harvard because he was black and bootstrapped in because of affirmative action. Now if that's not racist, I don't know what is.

so, if it were true, would it be racist, or, just racist because you checked and found out?
and, if untrue, are you still a racist for checking?
or, if you didn't check, are you "reverse racist" for not checking?

how about, or could we even agree, that anyone who's prez, or wants to be, usually has their lives investigated to the "Nth" degree, by forces against them. And, unless they are very naive, or just "dumb", they know that going in.
They can choose to try to hide things, which makes them look even more guilty, or, just open it all up, embarrass those digging, because, you are who you are, and are not ashamed, and, move forward.

I'd be so dang impressed, if any prez, or candidate, would make statements like
"yeah, I smoked pot, and inhaled"
"yup, cheated on an exam in school"
" I've run more than one stop sign, but, never drove off a bridge"
"yeah, we had people spy on the opposition, even took their files, hell, they did it to us two months prior"
"the checks in the mail, I'll respect you in the morning, and........."

and then, after the statement say:
STFW!!!!

It's just the hypocrisy, of people, leading us, telling how we should act, what we should believe, and, what we should do "for the good of the country" when, they (all 3 branches) don't do it, themselves.

[Trishntek]

If you question that, your ONLY motivation is that you think if you just dig deep enough you will certainly find that he got into Harvard because he was black and bootstrapped in because of affirmative action. Now if that's not racist, I don't know what is.

Yeah, that affirmative action sure is a RACIST policy isn't it? Now let me think,,,, whose RACIST idea was affirmative action?

But I digress,,,, Honestly I hadn't even considered affirmative action,,,, no evidence of that either,,,,, there's just no evidence PERIOD! At least we KNOW how GWB got into Yale and Harvard. You talk out of both side of your mouth! I never mentioned AA before YOU did! If you do not believe Affirmative Action to be a bad thing, why would it be bad if BHO received the benefits thereof?

If you do NOT AGREE with Affirmative Action, JK please express!

[Elderberry]

You are missing the implication. Birthers are birthers because they refuse to accept the legitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency. It is not the questions that are troubling, it is what the questions imply, and why they should even be important. If you can't see the subtle racial undertones I really don't know what else to say. Some people are just color blind. (pun intended)

[ygmir]

I just don't see the questions, implying or pointed at, race.
I see them, as disgruntled folks, who won't accept what has happened, and, believe (right or wrong) that something wrong has happened.
and, they are flailing at any pinata they can.

I think, perhaps, some folks are so sensitive to racial issues, and, protective of the prez that they like, they want to paint any criticism, or attack, as racist in an attempt to deflect said criticism, etc.
It can also be as simple as some people just don't like him, and, will do what they can to derail him.
It's happened before. it'll happen again.

and, again, we can be sure there are racists in that bunch.
But, also, any large group has them. Racists come in all colors.

[Thecatman]

Socks? nope, don't have any sock factories.

Just to rebut that, the socks I buy are made by Fox River, and according to the packaging, they are made in the USA.

[gyre]

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

http://www.madeinusa.org/

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/MadeInAmerica

http://americansworking.com/

http://madeinusaforever.com/

[Elderberry]

I need help! JStep, where are you?

[theCryptofishist]

Sorry, JK, I'm not good at this.

What gets me is that it was all "why doesn't he show us the birth certificate? he must have something to hide." And he showed us the paper, and there seems to have been nothing there, at least I didn't hear a big media "aha!" And then it's "show us the transcripts" (and I have to guess that Donald Trumps are much more embarrassing, why doesn't anyone say anything about that?) And then it's "he must have something to hide." Yeah, what's next? Marriage certificate? High School Diploma? Book reports from 3rd grade? How long does this absurd fishing expedition last? When do people start saying "All the other paper he showed us was clean, maybe we should stop?"
Is this really how we want our president to spend his time? Aren't there more important things he could be doing?

[Donna Matrix]

Socks? nope, don't have any sock factories.

Just to rebut that, the socks I buy are made by Fox River, and according to the packaging, they are made in the USA.

Thanks for the link...