Bringing large camps

Fufa · Post by **Fufa** » Mon May 02, 2011 3:59 pm

Anyone else had this issue? You run burning man past all your friends and they immediately agree that its awesome and they want to come. Then months after you've laid out the plans and itinerary, suddenly its no longer "for them". We've had this happen with 5 people now, in our goup of 15 originally.

What are your stories? How did you remedy (or prevent) this happening?[/list]

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Mon May 02, 2011 4:13 pm

We started with TEN who seemed to be firm and ended up with FIVE by opening Monday. We did what we could and accepted that everything would not be completed and decided to have fun! There comes a time you just go with what you have and hope for the best.

On closing Monday we were ELEVEN strong! SIX people I knew nothing about were some of our closest friends within a week on the playa.

Now, those ELEVEN plus ELEVEN more make up our camp this year with a few more possibles.

Leading a camp has mostly to do with forging ahead with what you have knowing that without followers you are not leading anything. Work with the willing, encourage the weak and understand that some will get left in the dust.

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon May 02, 2011 4:59 pm

Non refundable camp dues paid early. Don't even count them in until they pay. And 15 isn't a very large camp. We have about 50 and I don't consider that a large camp compared to some.

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Mon May 02, 2011 5:07 pm

What kind of people are these friends of yours, Fufa? You know there are two kinds of people in the world: people who always do what they say they will, and the other kind.

The other kind are fairly easy to spot, in ordinary social relationships; they say they'll call you later, or text, or come to happy hour or to help you move, whatever, and then... don't! Or maybe they do sometimes, if you remind them, or tell them it's important, but, they do not see the value in simply keeping their word.

They can be delightful companions, and are certainly worth an invitation, but you should never make the mistake of altering your plans to include them. They can't be helped, poor things; and life is too short already. Let them go.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon May 02, 2011 5:43 pm

It's almost impossible to predict who will really want to go.

Don't try to persuade anyone.
If people ask, tell them.

Post by **Savannah** » Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm

Anyone else had this issue? You run burning man past all your friends and they immediately agree that its awesome and they want to come. Then months after you've laid out the plans and itinerary, suddenly its no longer "for them". We've had this happen with 5 people now, in our goup of 15 originally.

I can understand your disappointment.

One way to be more comfortable in the midst of it: realizing that the drop-outs probably left for pretty good reasons. Folks start to realize their limitations in terms of money, temperament, enthusiasm, & tolerance for hard work (esp. while on vacation). Or have commitments that agitate them, and would cause their company to be a bit of a strain. Seeing themselves fairly clearly is a blessing in disguise.

Not all friends are cross-trainers, good for all occasions. Some are cleats.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:08 pm

I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse, but we have more people wanting to join our camp than we can possibly accommodate. Sure we'll have 20 newbies or so this year, and will lose at least that many, but from the requests I get for people wanting to join (most of them are ignored, sorry) it's hard to decide whom to eliminate. I will say this: If you were chosen to be a part of Barbie Death Village, you beat the odds. By a long shot.

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:28 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse, but we have more people wanting to join our camp than we can possibly accommodate. Sure we'll have 20 newbies or so this year, and will lose at least that many, but from the requests I get for people wanting to join (most of them are ignored, sorry) it's hard to decide whom to eliminate. I will say this: If you were chosen to be a part of Barbie Death Village, you beat the odds. By a long shot.

So how do you decide? Do you have a mental checklist of qualities or a certain mix that you're looking for? Or is this not a question you care to answer?

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:39 pm

probably the same way i pick the girls to dance on stage...

tamarakay · Post by **tamarakay** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:45 pm

Savannah wrote:
Not all friends are cross-trainers, good for all occasions. Some are cleats.

I love this.

Well Doc, i'm glad you picked MDF and I!
Simon I imagine you pick the ones who look like they are having the most fun?

tamarakay · Post by **tamarakay** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:48 pm

Fufa, i have not had that experience yet with burningman, but I have with other occasions. It's very hard for me to not take those things personally. But then i'm one of those that always thinks things are my fault. I'm getting over that though it's taken 50 or so years lol. It is hard to plan and then replan and then readjust.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Mon May 02, 2011 6:50 pm

yes. Um...YES...exactly.

i also like a perky ass and pretty eyes.

and i have a thing for debutantes and field hockey players that we need not get into right now.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:18 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:
Dr. Pyro wrote:I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse, but we have more people wanting to join our camp than we can possibly accommodate. Sure we'll have 20 newbies or so this year, and will lose at least that many, but from the requests I get for people wanting to join (most of them are ignored, sorry) it's hard to decide whom to eliminate. I will say this: If you were chosen to be a part of Barbie Death Village, you beat the odds. By a long shot.
So how do you decide? Do you have a mental checklist of qualities or a certain mix that you're looking for? Or is this not a question you care to answer?

What scares me is the thought that he might tell people he doesn't accept, "Oh, I hear Camp Greene Fairie is looking for some people" and set the rejects on other hapless camps. That's why you need ruthless people in your camp.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:yes. Um...YES...exactly.

i also like a perky ass and pretty eyes.

and i have a thing for debutantes and field hockey players that we need not get into right now.

Let me guess, St. Trinian's gets you hot under the collar.

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:28 pm

tamarakay wrote:Fufa, i have not had that experience yet with burningman, but I have with other occasions. It's very hard for me to not take those things personally. But then i'm one of those that always thinks things are my fault. I'm getting over that though it's taken 50 or so years lol. It is hard to plan and then replan and then readjust.

I think with Burning Man, it more like plan, then just go with the flow.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:39 pm

pine manor and choate girls.

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:45 pm

jkisha wrote:
tamarakay wrote:Fufa, i have not had that experience yet with burningman, but I have with other occasions. It's very hard for me to not take those things personally. But then i'm one of those that always thinks things are my fault. I'm getting over that though it's taken 50 or so years lol. It is hard to plan and then replan and then readjust.
I think with Burning Man, it more like plan, then just go with the flow.

Yeah but if Doc picks his campmates using Simon's criteria

then I definitely need to replan and readjust immediately...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:47 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:
jkisha wrote:
tamarakay wrote:Fufa, i have not had that experience yet with burningman, but I have with other occasions. It's very hard for me to not take those things personally. But then i'm one of those that always thinks things are my fault. I'm getting over that though it's taken 50 or so years lol. It is hard to plan and then replan and then readjust.
I think with Burning Man, it more like plan, then just go with the flow.
Yeah but if Doc picks his campmates using Simon's criteria :shock: then I definitely need to replan and readjust immediately...

The old adage is "Plan your burn, then burn your plan."

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:53 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
MyDearFriend wrote:
jkisha wrote: I think with Burning Man, it more like plan, then just go with the flow.
Yeah but if Doc picks his campmates using Simon's criteria then I definitely need to replan and readjust immediately...
The old adage is "Plan your burn, then burn your plan."

*lighting matches*

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:03 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:
jkisha wrote:
tamarakay wrote:Fufa, i have not had that experience yet with burningman, but I have with other occasions. It's very hard for me to not take those things personally. But then i'm one of those that always thinks things are my fault. I'm getting over that though it's taken 50 or so years lol. It is hard to plan and then replan and then readjust.
I think with Burning Man, it more like plan, then just go with the flow.
Yeah but if Doc picks his campmates using Simon's criteria then I definitely need to replan and readjust immediately...

LOL

There's always some truth in jest.

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:11 pm

jkisha wrote:
MyDearFriend wrote:
jkisha wrote: I think with Burning Man, it more like plan, then just go with the flow.
Yeah but if Doc picks his campmates using Simon's criteria then I definitely need to replan and readjust immediately...
LOL

There's always some truth in jest.

Thanks for the heads-up, seriously; I think I'm on the wrong bus.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:15 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:
jkisha wrote:
MyDearFriend wrote: Yeah but if Doc picks his campmates using Simon's criteria :shock: then I definitely need to replan and readjust immediately...
LOL

There's always some truth in jest.
Thanks for the heads-up, seriously; I think I'm on the wrong bus.

Ah. It's a street car, actually.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:18 pm

STELLA!

Fufa · Post by **Fufa** » Mon May 02, 2011 10:36 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:What kind of people are these friends of yours, Fufa? You know there are two kinds of people in the world: people who always do what they say they will, and the other kind.

The other kind are fairly easy to spot, in ordinary social relationships; they say they'll call you later, or text, or come to happy hour or to help you move, whatever, and then... don't! Or maybe they do sometimes, if you remind them, or tell them it's important, but, they do not see the value in simply keeping their word.

They can be delightful companions, and are certainly worth an invitation, but you should never make the mistake of altering your plans to include them. They can't be helped, poor things; and life is too short already. Let them go.

You echo my thoughts exactly! The Mr. bought a BUS because of the amount interest we had gotten, something he wouldn't have done if these friends of ours (that we have known for 5+ years) were all going to drop out. I wish that had just said straight up they didn't want to go. We have put a lot of planning into this simply because its quite the coordination fixing up the bus a bit, budgeting everything out (we're all poor students), getting everyone across the border, and fitting the entire trip within a one week time slot. Currently we actually have more rideshares and strangers (2 people who hooked up with us through the Alberta Burner networks), than we do "friends". I think that part of their issue was that they didn't like the fact that we wanted some camp rules; they didn't like us being "in charge" so to speak. I didn't realize things like "clean up your messes as soon as you make them" were so controversial...

Mr and I have come to the conclusion that after this one, we'll just keep the burns to just the two of us. Anyone else who wants to come can meet us there.

jkisha: deposits are due and tickets must be bought by May 15, so its no surprise they're dropping out now. And I call us a large camp simply because we're all travelling in the same bus together, rather than caravanning or meeting people there. I know we're tiny compared to theme camps and villages.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon May 02, 2011 11:29 pm

I could have told you that most people are like that anyway, before you bought the bus.
And most people just don't belong at the burn.

I can predict who would enjoy themselves there.. mostly.
But I have no clue who will go and who won't.

Did you involve other people in the organizing process?

No reason people riding with you have to camp with you.

I did notice that another social group I was in distintegrated when people moved it online "because everyone is online", with the clueless morons that think everyone is doing what they do.
So we lost everyone that wasn't online including me.

The group seems very active, but in real life they don't do much any longer.
It seems the people they shunted off were the people that actually did things, travelled, etc.
The few older members that were left, did most of the work and gradually noticed how dull the group was.
They still have that same fuck you attitude to anyone not online.

They look really active... on paper.

Even so, most groups have someone organizing everything, or at least suggesting it.

I don't know if any of this is helpful.

Fufa · Post by **Fufa** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:02 am

gyre wrote: Did you involve other people in the organizing process?

Tried, but so far no one seems to be interested. It's been a pretty apathetic "whatever you want" mood in terms of anyone putting out suggestions, or offering their opinions on things we ask or suggest. It's probably been one of our problems. I think we'll aim for a few big, in person, group meetings of everyone camping with us sometime soon to actually sit down with those we have left on the trip to talk about everything.

Actually, I'm going to start setting that up right now. Thanks gyre.

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:26 am

Fufa wrote:
MyDearFriend wrote:What kind of people are these friends of yours, Fufa? You know there are two kinds of people in the world: people who always do what they say they will, and the other kind.

The other kind are fairly easy to spot, in ordinary social relationships; they say they'll call you later, or text, or come to happy hour or to help you move, whatever, and then... don't! Or maybe they do sometimes, if you remind them, or tell them it's important, but, they do not see the value in simply keeping their word.

They can be delightful companions, and are certainly worth an invitation, but you should never make the mistake of altering your plans to include them. They can't be helped, poor things; and life is too short already. Let them go.

You echo my thoughts exactly! The Mr. bought a BUS because of the amount interest we had gotten, something he wouldn't have done if these friends of ours (that we have known for 5+ years) were all going to drop out. I wish that had just said straight up they didn't want to go. We have put a lot of planning into this simply because its quite the coordination fixing up the bus a bit, budgeting everything out (we're all poor students), getting everyone across the border, and fitting the entire trip within a one week time slot. Currently we actually have more rideshares and strangers (2 people who hooked up with us through the Alberta Burner networks), than we do "friends". I think that part of their issue was that they didn't like the fact that we wanted some camp rules; they didn't like us being "in charge" so to speak. I didn't realize things like "clean up your messes as soon as you make them" were so controversial...

Mr and I have come to the conclusion that after this one, we'll just keep the burns to just the two of us. Anyone else who wants to come can meet us there.

jkisha: deposits are due and tickets must be bought by May 15, so its no surprise they're dropping out now. And I call us a large camp simply because we're all travelling in the same bus together, rather than caravanning or meeting people there. I know we're tiny compared to theme camps and villages.

I would reach out to your local burner community for replacements to make up your budget. Interview them, let them know what is expected and collect their fees. They will turn out to be friends and will understand the rules from the get go.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:27 am

Hope it helps.

I haven't camped in any camps with an organized kitchen, so don't think there are a lot of rules normally otherwise.

As long as people don't wake me up, I'm okay if people set off high explosives in camp, which someone did, by the way.

Just normal camp etiquette mostly.

One tip.
The more ambitious the shower, the less likely it will operate on the playa.

C.f.M. · Post by **C.f.M.** » Tue May 03, 2011 6:14 am

"we'll just keep the burns to just the two of us. Anyone else who wants to come can meet us there."

And there you have it. Life is unpredictable. You may not even be able to go, when the time comes. Camp plans need to be flexible and as autonomous as possible.

Odds are you can find some passengers (either people and/or their stuff) to help defray costs. If you REALLY get desperate for money, maybe do a shuttle from the airport inside (and vice versa on Exodus).

delle · Post by **delle** » Tue May 03, 2011 7:02 am

Fufa wrote: The Mr. bought a BUS because of the amount interest we had gotten, something he wouldn't have done if these friends of ours (that we have known for 5+ years) were all going to drop out. I wish that had just said straight up they didn't want to go. We have put a lot of planning into this simply because its quite the coordination fixing up the bus a bit, budgeting everything out (we're all poor students), getting everyone across the border, and fitting the entire trip within a one week time slot. Currently we actually have more rideshares and strangers (2 people who hooked up with us through the Alberta Burner networks), than we do "friends". I think that part of their issue was that they didn't like the fact that we wanted some camp rules; they didn't like us being "in charge" so to speak. I didn't realize things like "clean up your messes as soon as you make them" were so controversial...

Have you considered contacting the regionals in the areas just south of the border from you? Picking up folks in the states along your route.

I'd be scared to death to have people I didn't absolutely trust already (not to do something stupid that would affect everyone) in my ride for a border crossing.