If you find something, is it yours? Moral questions

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:22 am

I used to tell my kids that if you find something laying on the sidewalk, someone left it there. They will be back for it. It isn't yours, you know that so don't try and make it yours.

If we were to have a discussion about, say Moral Dilemmas, Lets say just for example if someone elseâ€™s money is deposited to your accountâ€™ I donâ€™t know about no morals, I just know what is mine is mine and if you fuck with my stuff I have god on my side, and what isn;t mine isn't mine. and thatâ€™s that.

As I have previously posted I once closed an account that I had about $1,000 in but the bank gave me $8,000. (1973 dollars) I took the money without blinking and left the bank. I sat in my car for 15 minutes, thought long and hard, then went into the bank president and we sat down and figured out what happened. I gave them the money back, no reward, no letter that I am a nice guy or anything. I think it was Security Pacific and I was severing my ties with that bank and branch and that is that story. But, if I had not given it back they would have figured it out at some point. I think someone had made a deposit and written my account number. Eventually it would have been traced to me and I would have received a letter from either the bank or an attorney for the person who wrote the wrong account number. Now my life was one where I had property, I think if I had really needed the money, If I not doing ok and I really needed the money I might have addressed it in a different manner. Not to say I couldnâ€™t have used the money then, but not to the point to commit a crime.
And amazing enough here is todayâ€™s news on this very subject.

Los Angeles â€“ A Laguna Beach man faces jail time after failing to notify IRS authorities after a deposit of $110,000 was mistakenly put into his bank account, KCAL Reports.
Stephen McDow is charged with one felony count of grand theft by misappropriation of lost property, with an enhancement for taking property worth over $65,000, after finding the money in his own checking account.
The funds were supposed to be transferred to a Los Angeles woman but she provided the IRS with a bank account that had been closed. The account number was then later reassigned to McDow.
After the woman's attorneys contacted McDow regarding the mistake, he informed her he had already spend around $60,000 to pay off student and car loans. He offered to return the money in monthly payments but the woman was unsatisfied with the suggestion.
If convicted, McDow faces up to four years in prison.

I edit this to add that it don't matter that it is a bank or a business or anyone, thats all just justification and excuse when we say it might be ok.

graidawg · Post by **graidawg** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:55 am

some years ago an english newpaper did an experiment they handed a wallet containing a sum of money to the police in various parts of the country and returned 3 months later to claim it as in britain if its not claimed in that time it becomes yours. In most cases either a; the wallett wasnt there having been 'claimed' or b; there was no money in it. this was at police stations remember.

My stance on 'found' property is this if there is a legitimate way too then return it. identification of some sort or as at BRC or say a shopping mall a lost property office that is of necessity honest then return it. however if you find say a bundle of money on the floor or as friend did once in the gutter (Â£200) keep it - making every reasonable effort to return it (signs in nearby shop windows or adds in lost and found if the local paper has one).
property can be more value to someone than any actual cash value so effort should be made to reunite a thing with its owner, i have a ring that is priceless to me but is in reality probably only worth a very small amount if i lost it i would be devasted and my joy at having it returned immeasurable

Zhust · Post by **Zhust** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:30 am

In nature, if you find it, you can have it. American society (I won't claim to speak about others) says if you don't own it, it belongs to someone else. As such, Americans have to justify their behavior.

In your example, there are any number of rationalizations. At first I was going to chide you for claiming a noble act for what ultimately seemed to be avoiding getting caught. But the fault, really, is with the "everything is someone else's" mentality that overrides our natural instincts. (Another example is littering: it is natural to throw unwanted stuff on the ground because that unwanted part was biodegradable â€”Â a shell, an apple core, etc.)

I'm just saying that this particular moral quandary is based on the system we are working with. It's essentially a game and keeping found money is "cheating"Â â€”Â it is defying the rules of the game for your own advantage. And while cheating is wrong solely because you had agreed to the rules beforehand, you are forced at birth to play the specific game of society.

There is not even a way to "opt out" of the game because even that is cheating. The only way would be to exit primary society and go live on land somewhere, but land itself is owned, so you would be stealing, ergo cheating, so you really can't leave.

The fundamentals of morality hinge on how we treat one another. I rely on instinct for my one-on-one interactions with other humans â€”Â and by that, I mean the harmonious action that taps all levels from my reptilian selfishness, to my social primate, to my intelligent big brain. I don't always succeed, but I know it feels deeply better to do what makes the most instincts happy.

The rules of society sometimes ask us to trade off one or another, and it is those rules that are wrong. It is in our nature to help others, to share, to find others desirable, and so on. It hurts us to bend those rules.

BBadger · Post by **BBadger** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:50 am

I'll keep it if there is really no way to return it (like a lost and found), and it'll inevitably get taken by someone else. For example, if I see $20 on the floor in a supermarket, it probably means someone lost it, will never go back to retrieve it, and if someone else passes by, they'll just keep it instead. It might as well be me that gets the $20. Now if I find a wallet, and it has someone's ID in it, I'll call them up and return it.

Now say I find a bag and it has $10,000 in it. That I'll turn into the police. It's such a large amount that the person losing it would usually go to the police to report its loss. I think you get to keep it if there are no claims after so many days too.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:06 am

the banks can go fuck themselves...if you make a mistake you pay for it...if they make a mistake, fuck them...

there is no moral dilemma in my eyes when the banking System is concerned.

it is Inherently WRONG to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society and or system.

period. the end. I got NO problems spending that shit ANYWAY i goddamn please.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:17 am

do you differentiate between B of A and some little, local "savings and load"?

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:21 am

Sorry guys I should have left my thread up I did not realize as many were berth.g into it and enjoying the debate.

I

Ill look harder next time Sham. Thanks for the note.

Mdmf

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:25 pm

ygmir wrote:do you differentiate between B of A and some little, local "savings and load"?

Or my bike on the playa...or my solar lights on the playa, or someone's art work on the playa.

temptation is a mean mistress. Greed fell the roman empire!

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:39 pm

So to explain, I refinanced a home, and the bank sold it to the new lender transposing two digits.

This was 10 months ago, and I had not noticed. Old note - 380,302 and change. New note - 308,302.00

I knew I had dropped my monthly payment since I went from 5.125 percent to 3.00. I honestly did not notice the error until I looked at the year end statement from the mortgage company doing my taxes last month (filed late)

neither institution has said a word, I am told there is no recourse either.

ALSO - my apologies for dumping the previous thread, I did not know this many were interested in the direction the thread was going. Too late to resurrect.

MDMF

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:49 pm

mdmf007 wrote:So to explain, I refinanced a home, and the bank sold it to the new lender transposing two digits.

This was 10 months ago, and I had not noticed. Old note - 380,302 and change. New note - 308,302.00

I knew I had dropped my monthly payment since I went from 5.125 percent to 3.00. I honestly did not notice the error until I looked at the year end statement from the mortgage company doing my taxes last month (filed late)

neither institution has said a word, I am told there is no recourse either.

ALSO - my apologies for dumping the previous thread, I did not know this many were interested in the direction the thread was going. Too late to resurrect.

MDMF

Wow, now that is very cool.. ok so what happened in effect is the bank decided to change the amount financed..oh wait that was $380.000 but they forgave the amount down to $308.000. Hummm. sounds like you have a friend in the bank. I can't really see what you can do. I mean heck the bank is the boss and what they say goes... I guess you owe us a beer, buddy! Good luck on keeping your work and making your mortgage payments, use the "forgiveness" youi have gotten as a gift from God, until the point where you sell what was financed you will not se the benifit of this event. (do you like how I phrased that)

Banks today were given tarp funds to allow them the ability to reduce the amount owed on a mortgage, sounds like you hit a very proactive set of events that has gotten you your reduction. I wonder as to the true value of the property mortgaged etc...

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:02 pm

wedeliver wrote:
ygmir wrote:do you differentiate between B of A and some little, local "savings and load"?
Or my bike on the playa...or my solar lights on the playa, or someone's art work on the playa.

temptation is a mean mistress. Greed fell the roman empire!

of course i do, as did robin hood.

i know what is right and what is wrong, your moral dillema, frame it however you like, throw the word BANK in there and you have a new animal...

so suck it.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:09 pm

Nottingham, this is not, but i still adhere to the principle...

The Strong and The Rich live off of the Weak, the clever live off of the Strong and the Rich.

occasionally the clever pass some on to the weak, because they know that the game is inherently unfair and the playing field is NOT level.

to trust the fox to watch the hen house is Fools folly, someone once said first we kill all of the lawyers (shakespeare), i say, first we kill the bankers.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:16 pm

mdmf007 wrote:So to explain, I refinanced a home, and the bank sold it to the new lender transposing two digits.

This was 10 months ago, and I had not noticed. Old note - 380,302 and change. New note - 308,302.00

I knew I had dropped my monthly payment since I went from 5.125 percent to 3.00. I honestly did not notice the error until I looked at the year end statement from the mortgage company doing my taxes last month (filed late)

neither institution has said a word, I am told there is no recourse either.

ALSO - my apologies for dumping the previous thread, I did not know this many were interested in the direction the thread was going. Too late to resurrect.

MDMF

Interesting. I think I'd dump this thread too and just keep my mouth shut. Though it does appear that this is the type of error that might never be caught and certainly the onus in this situation is not with you. Recourse would be due the bank that acquired the mortgage, but it would be with the selling bank and not you. But I'm certainly no real estate lawyer.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:29 pm

I've been thinking about this morality question, and I think that my level of morality is proportional to how closely I know or how I feel toward the person/people/organization it was effecting. I would be more inclined to make what is considered the 'correct' moral choice if it involved someone I knew and liked than with a stranger or someone I didn't like.

Sounds terrible, I know. But I fear that's the truth.

Foxfur · Post by **Foxfur** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:55 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:Nottingham, this is not, but i still adhere to the principle...

The Strong and The Rich live off of the Weak, the clever live off of the Strong and the Rich.

occasionally the clever pass some on to the weak, because they know that the game is inherently unfair and the playing field is NOT level.

to trust the fox to watch the hen house is Fools folly, someone once said first we kill all of the lawyers (shakespeare), i say, first we kill the bankers.

Mmmm, I LOVE the hens!
I'll watch em anytime. Watch as they go into the oven!

I'm with Simon on this one as far as the banks go.
Personal shit I'll try to get back to the owner if possible or if I'm not overly keen on the object.
I'm not above keeping stuff I see in recycling bins
Fuck the city, they're charging people to recycle and don't break even after selling off the crap. That's insane and this is my protest.
When I find guns (Hi-Standard Olympic pistol, J.C. Higgins 12ga) They're MINE. Keeping them off the street is my civic duty.
At the burn, ANYTHING I find I will do my dmaned level best to get it back to its owner (especially moop).
Lost lovers are very cool to pick up. Hell, most of em appreciate it

Ff

graidawg · Post by **graidawg** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:58 pm

delete delete delete.

man seriously dispose of the evidence

Post by **Sham** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:02 pm

This will all be deleted tomorrow anyway.
Let me try to add my moral 2 cents one more time here.
The big banks and mortgage companies employ high-end lawyers, MBA's and accountants to make sure that any agreement that you sign is not in your best interest. They pray, as a matter of their business model, that you will slip up in some small way so they can pounce on you and make you pay all sorts of penalties or worse, take your house from you in foreclosure. There is not shred of compassion from these companies. They are in business to go for the kill.
They will put you out on the street or a homeless shelter at the blink of an eye. MDMF got a poke at them before they got one on him.
I agree that if this thread doesn't disappear tomorrow, then it should be deleted---but he should keep his mouth shut on the situation and enjoy the lower monthly payments!

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:17 pm

During the housing bubble the bank came at me with an offer for a "junk" loan.

Their estimated value of the house and property was $250,000.

Realisticly it was worth maybe $70k.

They went 100% equity and I walked away with their money.

Market crashed and their records are so screwed up from their own fucked up deals that they can't come after me.

My checking account is still with them.

I don't feel the least bit bad about taking advantage of their greed.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:33 pm

Im not too worried about the company figuring out whom I am from my eplaya posts, the property is not in my name.

its not a windfall in the sense that I have a chunk of change to spend. But, the 240 a month saved is nice.

I did apply for some relief, before refinancing, but gave up after going in loop after loop.

moonrise · Post by **moonrise** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:14 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Im not too worried about the company figuring out whom I am from my eplaya posts, the property is not in my name.

its not a windfall in the sense that I have a chunk of change to spend. But, the 240 a month saved is nice.

I did apply for some relief, before refinancing, but gave up after going in loop after loop.

I have to chime in now!

Many years ago I bought a duplex, priced the rent for the other half nice and low, (I lived in one side myself) after over a year I get a letter from the bank stating I under paid, they demand $900 more per month for the past 12 month's AND tell me I must pay $900 more per month for that loan for the rest of the loan term. I am freaking out, told them I priced the rent low, you eat it bank.

They tell me, 'Nah, you signed documents stating that if WE the (evil, greedy) bank make a mistake, you, the borrower signed a document stating YOU WILL FIX OUR MISTAKE!!!!!'

FUCKERS! Took me YEARS to get caught up on that one! I did raise the rent, duh, but they trashed my life for a long, loooong time.

I say make sure you KNOW there is no recourse before considering counting the hens. I'd call a smart, trusted lawyer to quadruple check if I were you!!

How many private jets, mansions, yachts, servants, limos, and who knows what else does a greedy bank need? ALL OF THEM!!

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:46 pm

If I find your 18-year old daughter hitch hiking on the side of the road well, is she mine?

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:03 pm

Isotopia wrote:If I find your 18-year old daughter hitch hiking on the side of the road well, is she mine?

Talk about a non-sequitur.

Post by **Sham** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:07 pm

Isotopia wrote:If I find your 18-year old daughter hitch hiking on the side of the road well, is she mine?

If your 18 year old daughter drops her wallet by the side of the road while hitch hiking, I assure you that I will see that it gets returned to her at my expense. All her money and credit cards will be intact.

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:16 pm

never mind.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:16 pm

Isotopia wrote:If I find your 18-year old daughter hitch hiking on the side of the road well, is she mine?

how hot is she? Because that matters, you know.

knowmad · Post by **knowmad** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:34 pm

maybe this is all money laundering?

A rouge element (Bankers) inside the bank needs a few places to stash a few thousand for a few weeks. while they move and erase the evidence. what just happend to end up in the account could also disappear.

Their is currently a shit load of money bailing banks out right now, money bankers would like to say "yeah we used it here here and here. only it went there, there," and oops in Bankers pocket. and if the account holder pinches a bit, it's not the law they deal with (although they might) but the Mob.

A friend found a "Starter Kit" washed up on Miami beach. 1Kilo Cocaine, 5.oz H, and $10,000 cash. and within a week the entire beach was crawling with mob and cops ('proly wasn't the only kit lost)

may not always be what you found, but was it really lost?

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:58 pm

Banks today were given tarp funds to allow them the ability to reduce the amount owed on a mortgage, sounds like you hit a very proactive set of events that has gotten you your reduction. I wonder as to the true value of the property mortgaged etc...

There are banks who never participated with Fanny & Freddy or accept TARP funds. I went out of my way seeking such banks and they are rare. But just like everything else, there are exceptions. There are banks that have been around since the Civil War and are worthy investments IMHO simply because they remain faithful to free trade and fundamental economics.

knowmad · Post by **knowmad** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:18 pm

Trishntek wrote:
Banks today were given tarp funds to allow them the ability to reduce the amount owed on a mortgage, sounds like you hit a very proactive set of events that has gotten you your reduction. I wonder as to the true value of the property mortgaged etc...
There are banks who never participated with Fanny & Freddy or accept TARP funds. I went out of my way seeking such banks and they are rare. But just like everything else, there are exceptions. There are banks that have been around since the Civil War and are worthy investments IMHO simply because they remain faithful to free trade and fundamental economics.

yeah yeah and we have a real live unicorn that sleeps in our bed.

If it Says "In God We Trust" it is Fiat Money. Usury bonds. When they pull the plug it's over. Central bankers want it that way Central bankers get it that way.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:25 pm

mdmf007 wrote:So to explain, I refinanced a home, and the bank sold it to the new lender transposing two digits.

This was 10 months ago, and I had not noticed. Old note - 380,302 and change. New note - 308,302.00

I knew I had dropped my monthly payment since I went from 5.125 percent to 3.00. I honestly did not notice the error until I looked at the year end statement from the mortgage company doing my taxes last month (filed late)

neither institution has said a word, I am told there is no recourse either.

ALSO - my apologies for dumping the previous thread, I did not know this many were interested in the direction the thread was going. Too late to resurrect.

MDMF

I just had a thought, (thats strange), if as you say the bank sold your debt, how much were they paid. If they loaned you, or in somekind of agreement you became indebted to the amount of 380, yet the company who purchased this paper, only expected to received 308. How much was it really sold for. Since one would expect the company purchasing this dept to make a profit, it seems you should have been given the same opportunity to buy your debt at the reduced rate the bank sold it for. I don't get how and why of it all, but then thats why I aint rich.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:00 am

If it were an individuals, or small businesses property, I would do my best to see it's returned. In 2004, I found a BM ticket, by the portos in Empire. I asked around if everyone had their ticket....and with no luck, I had the cashier in the Empire store hold on to it. As the green tortious turned off 447, I saw a woman parked at the entrance with a sign, saying "I need a miracle." May or may not have been her ticket, but the odds spoke yes. After failing to stop the bus, I had to bribe the driver with beer, to let that poor girl know, on his return trip.

If you find something, is it yours? Moral questions

If you find something, is it yours? Moral questions

Re: If you find something, is it yours? Moral questions