If you find something, is it yours? Moral questions

[Sic Pup]

There are banks who never participated with Fanny & Freddy or accept TARP funds. I went out of my way seeking such banks and they are rare. But just like everything else, there are exceptions. There are banks that have been around since the Civil War and are worthy investments IMHO simply because they remain faithful to free trade and fundamental economics.

yeah yeah and we have a real live unicorn that sleeps in our bed.

If it Says "In God We Trust" it is Fiat Money. Usury bonds. When they pull the plug it's over. Central bankers want it that way Central bankers get it that way.

I don't know with any certainty that the Urban Partnership Bank is better than any other.

My history with them (5-6 years ) began with ShoreBankbefore they ran into difficulties.

I do know that if they are true to their mission it appears to be a viable alternative.

YMMV

Money is dirty business no matter how you slice it, at 54 I'm still grappling with my relationship with it (and fight like the devil not to compromise core values).

Edit - to add links

[wedeliver]

do you differentiate between B of A and some little, local "savings and load"?

Or my bike on the playa...or my solar lights on the playa, or someone's art work on the playa.

temptation is a mean mistress. Greed fell the roman empire!

of course i do, as did robin hood.

i know what is right and what is wrong, your moral dillema, frame it however you like, throw the word BANK in there and you have a new animal...

so suck it.

Yeah, I am aware that banks are not our friends, but that does not excuse keeping something that isn't yours. Isn't it greed that drives this act? Don't some kind of emotions come on, look over your shoulder to see if anyone is looking?? But on the other hand. I guess that is why we have two hands so we can see the other side of something, so on the other hand, I think that it kinda depends on a persons personal life situation. How are they doing in life that will drive how someone might act in this situation. The same person might respond differently if thier own life is different. The is such a good feeling in doing what seems to be the right thing. Especially when it is hard to do. Otherwise with the greatest respect my friend Simon, your turn to suck it (whatever that means) hahah

[BBadger]

You can still fit not giving the money back within a moral framework with no contradictions: you just accept that if you find something--anything--it is yours. Keeping whatever you found is not considered dishonest, because it is your right. What more, giving what you found back to its former owner is simply an extraordinary benevolent act.

With respect to the bank and its error: not telling the bank of its mistake therefore becomes no worse than deciding not to donate to an unworthy charity.

[wedeliver]

You can still fit not giving the money back within a moral framework with no contradictions: you just accept that if you find something--anything--it is yours. Keeping whatever you found is not considered dishonest, because it is your right. What more, giving what you found back to its former owner is simply an extraordinary benevolent act.

With respect to the bank and its error: not telling the bank of its mistake therefore becomes no worse than deciding not to donate to an unworthy charity.

Actually that is exactly what I disagree with. I guess my sons bike was left in such a way that it appeared to be abandoned so that became the excuse to take it at brc. Also, my car, I park it someplace, it is my car don't be taking it please. My horse, if I park him somewhere please don't take my horse. My wallet, If I happen to drop it I really need it, and I really need what is inside it. It is mine, there is no excuse, there is no reasoning, there is no justification... just my opinion. And the solar lights I put around my camp so it looked pretty, please don't take them, they are mine and it isn't nice of those people who took my lights, I cannot understand how they justififed it. edited to add lights part

[illy dilly]

So to explain, I refinanced a home, and the bank sold it to the new lender transposing two digits.

This was 10 months ago, and I had not noticed. Old note - 380,302 and change. New note - 308,302.00

I knew I had dropped my monthly payment since I went from 5.125 percent to 3.00. I honestly did not notice the error until I looked at the year end statement from the mortgage company doing my taxes last month (filed late)

neither institution has said a word, I am told there is no recourse either.

ALSO - my apologies for dumping the previous thread, I did not know this many were interested in the direction the thread was going. Too late to resurrect.

MDMF

I just had a thought, (thats strange), if as you say the bank sold your debt, how much were they paid. If they loaned you, or in somekind of agreement you became indebted to the amount of 380, yet the company who purchased this paper, only expected to received 308. How much was it really sold for. Since one would expect the company purchasing this dept to make a profit, it seems you should have been given the same opportunity to buy your debt at the reduced rate the bank sold it for. I don't get how and why of it all, but then thats why I aint rich.

Here is my understanding of how and why mortgages are sold and/or packaged in to an annuity and sold.
The actual value of the loan is the profit made on the interest of the loan over 30 years.
I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but just the general idea.
A 380k mortgage @ 5.125 for 360 months would actually be about 744k paid.
So the profit would be about 364k.

The loan buyer would probably pay like 560k for it, assuming that there were still 360 months left on the loan. Often the selling firm will wait a year to sell it, so that they can recoup their costs on the loan. ($2070x 12= 24840).
Then the new loan holder will in the end make about 184. The original loan writer will make about 180k, but they will have their original 380k back quickly so they can write another loan, and sell it again.

So in the end the loan is sold for way more than its 'written value'

*****Edited to add****
After rereading MDMF's post I realize he refinanced, so everything I said is NOT pertinent to the thread.

[Mojojita]

I don't like to rain on the parade of manna from the skies but I think it is possible that the bank has some recourse and could conceiveably come after you in the future - not just to bring the future payments up but to demand full immediate payment of the difference of what should have been paid under the loan contract. (Less amount for reduced interest rate). You contracted for 380. The first bank will probably discover that they sold this mortgage at a big loss to bank #2. Did you ever sign a new contract for 308? Likely not. The devil here is in the fine print of the contract you signed and it could bounce back on you like it did on Moonrise.

[FIGJAM]

Yes, but under current conditions that contract is most likely literally lost in the shuffle.

[Sham]

Yes, but under current conditions that contract is most likely literally lost in the shuffle.

Not only that, but all the info has been entered in the computer, and no one will ever go back and review that info for accuracy. Even if the borrower looks for a pay-off amount, they will use the balance that the computer is showing, and not go back and recalcuate every monthly payment that was made from the loan inception.

Further, there is a huge amount of denyablity on the part of the borrower. "I know I was refincing for a lower rate, and my monthly payment was a lot less. The numbers all looked right to me".

Just let more time go on and keep things nice and quiet!

My guess is, if a call is made to report this mistake, even the person at the mortgage company is go to question the sanity of the person making that call.

[illy dilly]

Just make all the payments on time, and don't raise any red flags.

[graidawg]

try and save the difference. if in a a year and a day the bank dont come after you its yours - or does te statute of limitations not apply to bank cock ups?

[wedeliver]

Probably a good idea to set this forgivness in stone by doing a refi and paying off that debt, the whole thing just smells so nice, what, less then 4% interest.. in what world do we live today... can't beat that with big drum sticks, let me tell ya.

[knowmad]

Your right this things useless.