Fuck You Mr. Obama, Sellout

[cowboyangel]

I know, LF! They exist to create jobs for us, the little people!

Really? and where pray tell are those jobs? Last I checked thanks to NAFTA about 1.5 million went overseas. 50-60% of jobs are created by small businesses... small businesses who pay taxes unlike these robber baron shit bag companies. CISCO just let off over 4000 workers, Boarders over 10,000. Great recovery hey?

[littleflower]

cowboy, i can't help it .....

what, exactly, do you think a corporation is?

what does it do with all its money?

i mean, lets try to get down to earth here ......

Christ Women, need reminding of BP, Massey Energy, EXXON, Monsanto, CHevron, Coke Goldman?? , shit the list is long...most of their CEOs belong in JAIL.

LOL, there's only one of me, thank dawg.

You named 6.

my brother is CEO of a corporation. so am i.

What IS a corporation, cowboy?

[Ugly Dougly]

Owning a jet that you can write off as a business expense?
Can have a ride in yours?

[littleflower]

hahaha, dougly ..... my brother's boss - the big money guy (((a liberal democrat))) - has a private jet, bro told me that it costs about $1M /year if it doesn't go anywhere....

taxing the wealthy, a la democrat, doesn't touch those guys. it hits my bro pretty good, though.

[Ugly Dougly]

Yes, a lobbyist is a worthwhile investment my dear....

[ygmir]

Yes, a lobbyist is a worthwhile investment my dear....

that is such and interesting statement, comrade Dougly.

seems to fly in the face of your view of all being equal.

[Ugly Dougly]

Buying lobbyists with money and acquiring influence is a common practice for the uber-wealthy. This influence buys them tax breaks, loopholes and subsidies, otherwise they wouldn't bother lobbying.

That's a hard, cold fact. I'm not a cynic, I'm a realist.

My political outlook is mostly descriptive, Ygmir, rather than prescriptive; you know I am not sparkle pony.

Now what's that got to do with "my view of all being equal"?

[cowboyangel]

cowboy, i can't help it .....

what, exactly, do you think a corporation is?

what does it do with all its money?

i mean, lets try to get down to earth here ......

Christ Women, need reminding of BP, Massey Energy, EXXON, Monsanto, CHevron, Coke Goldman?? , shit the list is long...most of their CEOs belong in JAIL.

LOL, there's only one of me, thank dawg.

You named 6.

my brother is CEO of a corporation. so am i.

What IS a corporation, cowboy?

By law, a corporation is a "person" and that ain't right.

[cowboyangel]

[Ugly Dougly]

I have been reading interviews with various industry and financial leaders.

The consensus seems to be - among them - that it's not taxes that are holding the economy back. People need stability, to know what the next few months will be like financially. Corporations don't hire when their taxes drop; they hire when the extra people will help them make money.

So as soon as Congress chooses something and sticks with it instead of waffling, then we can begin to see good times.

[littleflower]

By law, a corporation is a "person" and that ain't right.

but it's people who create them, work for them ... lie/cheat/steal sometimes ... and it's people who get the profit. with the big ones, quite a lot of people get that profit ..... most people have some stake in pension plans and/or retirement plans, i think .... as well as charitable trusts, insurance trusts .... who knows what all .... and yes, lobbying money, political contributions, etc. etc. etc. that money goes all over the place, but always ends up in the hands of people. lots of them.

i'm not saying that the system is perfect, but jeez, this worker's paradise stuff is so bolshevik .... i'd rather stick with what we have than go down that road.

I agree Dougly, it's not necessarily taxes, but uncertainty. the health care stuff is a big part of that uncertainty, we'll probably have to wait to see how that works before employment picks up. most of the business guys i know say we need both tax hikes and spending cuts to get the debt back into a healthy ratio with GDP - and they are disgusted with both parties. 30 years ago the parties worked together, now it's just half truths and soundbites. but the people buy it. IMHO the journalists are a big part of the hate machine, as well. who knows how to fix it? sigh ....

[cowboyangel]

I have been reading interviews with various industry and financial leaders.

The consensus seems to be - among them - that it's not taxes that are holding the economy back. People need stability, to know what the next few months will be like financially. Corporations don't hire when their taxes drop; they hire when the extra people will help them make money.

So as soon as Congress chooses something and sticks with it instead of waffling, then we can begin to see good times.

Corporate taxes have never been lower and many of the big ones like Verizon, pay no taxes, so if what you are saying were true, we would be seeing a growth in job creation. Just the opposite is happening.

[Ugly Dougly]

Actually many of the unemployed are government workers, since the GOP is cutting services to save us all money.

[littleflower]

I have been reading interviews with various industry and financial leaders.

The consensus seems to be - among them - that it's not taxes that are holding the economy back. People need stability, to know what the next few months will be like financially. Corporations don't hire when their taxes drop; they hire when the extra people will help them make money.

So as soon as Congress chooses something and sticks with it instead of waffling, then we can begin to see good times.

Corporate taxes have never been lower and many of the big ones like Verizon, pay no taxes, so if what you are saying were true, we would be seeing a growth in job creation. Just the opposite is happening.

Employment taxes ............ they ALL pay employment taxes, on every employee, at least 7.65% up to $106,800 of earnings on every employee, 1.45% on total wages, plus unemployment insurance - it varies by state, but can also be pretty high. Payroll is generally a company's biggest expense, and these taxes can be very hard on smaller businesses. Other taxes could pop up as well, particularly on the state side - i don't know them all. also, there is a lot of noise about removing the earnings cap on the 6.2% of SS - that would be hard on a lot of companies in expensive cities. add in potential health care mandates and it can be very expensive to hire people.

most companies pay income taxes, and their profits are usually taxed again at the individual level. CA, you keep giving examples that are the exception, not the rule. One might think you would like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[ygmir]

Actually many of the unemployed are government workers, since the GOP is cutting services to save us all money.

ah yes, the all powerful GOP.
after all, they make the entire budget, pass it in both houses, and sign it. Also give opinion and enforce it.
No wonder you so resent them. Dang, how did they get the power, over all this, and, hold it for all these decades?
And, there sit the poor, dems. no power, no influence, just trying to help the "masses" to gain their little piece of paradise.
It's amazing, really, how they keep the rest of us out of servitude, owing to their total lack of power and influence in gov.

[Ugly Dougly]

Sarcasm detected and noted.

[cowboyangel]

I have been reading interviews with various industry and financial leaders.

The consensus seems to be - among them - that it's not taxes that are holding the economy back. People need stability, to know what the next few months will be like financially. Corporations don't hire when their taxes drop; they hire when the extra people will help them make money.

So as soon as Congress chooses something and sticks with it instead of waffling, then we can begin to see good times.

Corporate taxes have never been lower and many of the big ones like Verizon, pay no taxes, so if what you are saying were true, we would be seeing a growth in job creation. Just the opposite is happening.

Employment taxes ............ they ALL pay employment taxes, on every employee, at least 7.65% up to $106,800 of earnings on every employee, 1.45% on total wages, plus unemployment insurance - it varies by state, but can also be pretty high. Payroll is generally a company's biggest expense, and these taxes can be very hard on smaller businesses. Other taxes could pop up as well, particularly on the state side - i don't know them all. also, there is a lot of noise about removing the earnings cap on the 6.2% of SS - that would be hard on a lot of companies in expensive cities. add in potential health care mandates and it can be very expensive to hire people.

most companies pay income taxes, and their profits are usually taxed again at the individual level. CA, you keep giving examples that are the exception, not the rule. One might think you would like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

A good friend of mine created this web site. He's a mathematician and physicist.

http://www.lcurve.org/

I'm talking about increasing the taxes on billionaires, closing tax loopholes, tobin tax-even a fucking penny on every dollar of stock trades....not too much to ask since we're in a fucking recession despite what the big media says, taxing the fortune 500 most of whom pay ZERO taxes.
Middle America has taken a tremendous hit during this Wall St and Banking generated crisis...time for these fuck wads to start paying for it...most of America agrees with me as a matter of fact...what planet do you live on?

Oh, and fuck the corporate Wall St. kiss ass president, one term for that traitor, coward, ass hat.

[can't sit still]

Littleflower, you asked what a corporation is. A corporation is like a gun. A gun is a weapon that can be used for good or bad. A corporation is a shield that can be used for good or bad. Many corporations have used this shield to to avoid any negative fallout from actions that harm others. Read on harm;
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/histor ... -Exist.htm
A corporation is also a pile of money looking to grow larger. The diffused or absent personal responsibility encourages harmful actions. Profit is the only consideration. . What happens to society when there are only "carrots" and NO sticks? What happens to a society when one level is immune from prosecution, no matter what damage they cause?
When Lee Iaccoca was Pres of Ford , he was told about the Pinto Gas tank problem. He asked how many would die and how much it would cost. $ 42 million, as I recall. He asked how much it would cost to fix the problem $ 80 million. The decision was simple.
The corporation is a great magnifier of the damage done by un-ethical people. Since power corrupts, the immunity offered by a corporate structure is a huge attractant to those who wish to profit by evil.

[ygmir]

Littleflower, you asked what a corporation is. A corporation is like a gun. A gun is a weapon that can be used for good or bad. A corporation is a shield that can be used for good or bad. Many corporations have used this shield to to avoid any negative fallout from actions that harm others. Read on harm;
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/histor ... -Exist.htm
A corporation is also a pile of money looking to grow larger. The diffused or absent personal responsibility encourages harmful actions. Profit is the only consideration. . What happens to society when there are only "carrots" and NO sticks? What happens to a society when one level is immune from prosecution, no matter what damage they cause?
When Lee Iaccoca was Pres of Ford , he was told about the Pinto Gas tank problem. He asked how many would die and how much it would cost. $ 42 million, as I recall. He asked how much it would cost to fix the problem $ 80 million. The decision was simple.
The corporation is a great magnifier of the damage done by un-ethical people. Since power corrupts, the immunity offered by a corporate structure is a huge attractant to those who wish to profit by evil.

Are you saying, all corps. are bad?
Or, just the "Bad" ones?

seems, there are good reasons for them, and all that...............

I'd still think, it comes down to the "people" who run it, not the entity, as such.

[FIGJAM]

My understanding is that historicly corporations would be put together to handle projects that were to big for one company to finance and had to be disolved by law once the project was complete.

Then over time, turned into what they are today.

[ygmir]

My understanding is that historicly corporations would be put together to handle projects that were to big for one company to finance and had to be disolved by law once the project was complete.

Then over time, turned into what they are today.

wow, that would be interesting...........

[can't sit still]

Figjam, my understanding is that your understanding is correct. A corporate mantle of protection is innocent. It's only the evil who use it for evil.

[FIGJAM]

I can't remember where I learned it, but here's something from another source.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_a ... ns_us.html

[cowboyangel]

Why Medicare is the Solution - Not the Problem
Sunday 24 July 2011
by: Robert Reich, Robert Reich's Blog | Op-Ed
)

Not only is Social Security on the chopping block in order to respond to Republican extortion. So is Medicare.

But Medicare isn’t the nation’s budgetary problems. It’s the solution. The real problem is the soaring costs of health care that lie beneath Medicare. They’re costs all of us are bearing in the form of soaring premiums, co-payments, and deductibles.

Medicare offers a means of reducing these costs — if Washington would let it.

Let me explain.

Americans spend more on health care per person than any other advanced nation and get less for our money. Yearly public and private healthcare spending is $7,538 per person. That’s almost two and a half times the average of other advanced nations.

Yet the typical American lives 77.9 years – less than the average 79.4 years in other advanced nations. And we have the highest rate of infant mortality of all advanced nations.

Medical costs are soaring because our health-care system is totally screwed up. Doctors and hospitals have every incentive to spend on unnecessary tests, drugs, and procedures.

You have lower back pain? Almost 95% of such cases are best relieved through physical therapy. But doctors and hospitals routinely do expensive MRI’s, and then refer patients to orthopedic surgeons who often do even more costly surgery. Why? There’s not much money in physical therapy.

Your diabetes, asthma, or heart condition is acting up? If you go to the hospital, 20 percent of the time you’re back there within a month. You wouldn’t be nearly as likely to return if a nurse visited you at home to make sure you were taking your medications. This is common practice in other advanced countries. So why don’t nurses do home visits to Americans with acute conditions? Hospitals aren’t paid for it.



America spends $30 billion a year fixing medical errors – the worst rate among advanced countries. Why? Among other reasons because we keep patient records on computers that can’t share the data. Patient records are continuously re-written on pieces of paper, and then re-entered into different computers. That spells error.

Meanwhile, administrative costs eat up 15 to 30 percent of all healthcare spending in the United States. That’s twice the rate of most other advanced nations. Where does this money go? Mainly into collecting money: Doctors collect from hospitals and insurers, hospitals collect from insurers, insurers collect from companies or from policy holders.

A major occupational category at most hospitals is “billing clerk.” A third of nursing hours are devoted to documenting what’s happened so insurers have proof.

Trying to slow the rise in Medicare costs doesn’t deal with any of this. It will just limit the amounts seniors can spend, which means less care. As a practical matter it means more political battles, as seniors – whose clout will grow as boomers are added to the ranks – demand the limits be increased. (If you thought the demagoguery over “death panels” was bad, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.)

Paul Ryan’s plan – to give seniors vouchers they can cash in with private for-profit insurers — would be even worse. It would funnel money into the hands of for-profit insurers, whose administrative costs are far higher than Medicare.

So what’s the answer? For starters, allow anyone at any age to join Medicare. Medicare’s administrative costs are in the range of 3 percent. That’s well below the 5 to 10 percent costs borne by large companies that self-insure. It’s even further below the administrative costs of companies in the small-group market (amounting to 25 to 27 percent of premiums). And it’s way, way lower than the administrative costs of individual insurance (40 percent). It’s even far below the 11 percent costs of private plans under Medicare Advantage, the current private-insurance option under Medicare.

In addition, allow Medicare – and its poor cousin Medicaid – to use their huge bargaining leverage to negotiate lower rates with hospitals, doctors, and pharmaceutical companies. This would help move health care from a fee-for-the-most-costly-service system into one designed to get the highest-quality outcomes most cheaply.

Estimates of how much would be saved by extending Medicare to cover the entire population range from $58 billion to $400 billion a year. More Americans would get quality health care, and the long-term budget crisis would be sharply reduced.

Let me say it again: Medicare isn’t the problem. It’s the solution.

[littleflower]

My understanding is that historicly corporations would be put together to handle projects that were to big for one company to finance and had to be disolved by law once the project was complete.

Then over time, turned into what they are today.

this is what i was getting at, of course! people pooling resources in order to make money. i fail to see what's wrong with this - my sister and i recently pooled our resources and made our own little company, so we could make $35/hour instead of the $12-20/hour we would make doing the same work for somebody else.

one person could never fund the infrastructure necessary to run a large company, and the fact is, anyone who believes in a publicly traded company can invest in it. anyone who has an interest in a pension plan or retirement account very likely owns a piece of exxon, through a mutual fund, at least .... their earnings may be huge, but their income per share is not.

i've been looking into verizon's tax issue ... on my own, using what i know after more than 25 years working with taxes and accounting. i do NOT trust journalists and pols to explain this stuff.

verizon's income statement is available on the web. i can't link to it, but it's there.

they certainly paid payroll taxes. there is no way out of that if you have employees. but that is a deduction from income, and therefore deducted already to reach the $12B profit.

Verizon has nearly $2.5 billion set aside for taxes, pending audit. the thing you must understand is that there is a difference between financial accounting and tax accounting - the former wants to maximize profits for investors, while the goal in tax accounting is to minimize taxes - something that people do as well. the most common difference is in depreciation - if verizon buys new equipment, for example, they are allowed to write it off faster for tax purposes. i haven't looked at their tax return to find the differences, but you can bet that the IRS will, which is why verizon set aside that money. i think the IRS has 3 years to settle this.

there is also the $0.90/per share, which is taxed again as dividends on investor's tax returns. much of that goes into pensions and retirement accounts, so the tax is deferred ... but the point is, that $12B profit is taxed... possibly twice.

there are people who would suggest that this double taxation is unfair.

what does verizon do that is evil? i know, lobbyists and such .... well, why not? everyone else can. any large organization that is run by a few people can become corrupt.... including governments, unions, charities, &c.

CSS, the problem with taxing billionaires is that they already have their money. a penny tax on stock sales wouldn't touch it.... they don't have to sell.

[cowboyangel]

Sold Down The River, By A Traitor Democrat No Less. Fuck him and his rat ass compromising soul.
(LF, the tobin tax is for all trades by anyone, this is how the billionaires make their money. Your analysis is flawed.)



So This Is Despair
Tuesday 26 July 2011
by: William Rivers Pitt, Truthout | Op-Ed



At its best our age is an age of searchers and discoverers, and at its worst, an age that has domesticated despair and learned to live with it happily.

- Flannery O'Connor

It is difficult to describe this emotion. I’m used to disappointment, fairly comfortable with heartbreak, and am well acquainted with rage. Over the course of my lifetime, my presidents have been Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama…and each, in his own way, has been worse than the last.

How can I say that? Easy. The problems of Nixon are still with us, and have grown worse by orders of magnitude through each successive administration. Certain presidents have exacerbated the situation beyond their expected purview, but generally speaking, each one has adopted the worst ideas of his predecessor, and in nearly every instance, has made those problems worse.

But this…this is too much.

The timeline as I understand it: the far-right GOP caucus in the House decided to use the debt limit as a hostage to fortune in their decades-long quest to eliminate Social Security and Medicare. The current Democratic president saw this, and in a pure anti-Lakoffian flail that explains everything you need to know about the man, accepted the deranged premise put before him and went to work on the annihilation of the social safety net…but with the proviso that we find some new tax revenues by closing some loopholes…maybe…please?

Not good enough. House Speaker Boehner walked away from the debt-limit talks, not once but twice, because he can’t control his caucus and because he had this Democratic president right where he wanted him. The president blew up – in as much as “No Drama” Obama ever blows up – and wondered what is needed for the GOP to say “Yes” to anything. Read between the lines of that presser, and you get this: “I tried to give them Social Security. I tried to give them Medicare and Medicaid. I gave those things willingly, despite cries of outrage from my ungrateful, foolish, obnoxious left flank, and asked only for a pittance in tax revenues in exchange. Shame on the GOP for not rampaging these social programs when I offered them the chance to do so.”

Web forums all across the Democratic Party spectrum celebrated the president’s resolve. He showed them, didn’t he?

Well…wait. I saw a president in a state of high piss-off because he tried to give away Social Security and Medicare, but couldn’t convince the far right to take the proffered opportunity. They’ve been trying to do this very thing for three generations, and here is Obama practically sweating bullets in his desire to give them the victory they have pined for since Goldwater was in short pants. Sure, it’s proof that Boehner is at the mercy of the Tea Party freshmen in his caucus, but in which universe is this called victory? This Democratic president was angry because he was being denied the opportunity to preside over an historic roll-back of the New Deal?

Poor baby.

Oh, but we weren’t done yet. The “Grand Bargain” was still in the offing, now splintered into two or three or twelve different iterations, but all ultimately coming down to the same thing: trillions in cuts for the most vulnerable Americans, no new tax revenues from the rich or anyone else, and the bonus prize sought most passionately by the Democrats was the chance to kick this whole fight down the road to 2013, so none of these failures would be forced to address the question before their next all-important election cycle.

Help Truthout build a future for commercial-free journalism: become a Member today by clicking here.

Sell out Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid for a chance at an easier ride at the ballot? Where do I sign?

The Bush-era tax cuts for rich people appear nowhere in the discussion, despite the fact that eliminating them would go most of the way towards resolving this “crisis.” We are still fighting three wars, and the “defense” budget remains largely untouchable. I have not heard an American politician talk about jobs in over a year, even though a robust jobs program would add revenue to the budget hand over fist.

At the time of this writing, matters stand thusly:

We don't yet know what the final deal to raise the debt ceiling will be. But now that Harry Reid is developing a proposal with $2.7 trillion in cuts and nothing in revenues, it's a safe bet that it won't include any tax increases. Which means that whether Republicans realize it or not, they've won. The question now is whether they can stop.

John Boehner is proposing a deal with about $1 trillion in spending cuts and a short-term increase in the debt ceiling and a bipartisan congressional committee charged with developing a large deficit reduction package that would be immune to amendments and filibusters and would be the price of the next increase in the debt ceiling. Harry Reid is developing a package of spending cuts that Democrats could accept and would reach Boehner's $2.4 trillion mark.

If you take the Republicans' goals as avoiding a deal in which they have to vote for tax increases and denying Obama a political victory, it looks like they have succeeded. That success has come with costs - they've done themselves political damage, are risking a crisis that could do the economy tremendous harm, and have left the Bush tax cuts unresolved, which means they might end up watching taxes rise much higher than if they'd taken Obama's offer - but it's still been a success.

A great many people who should know better continue to look at this situation as if Mr. Obama has some fantastic rabbit he…is…just…waiting to pull out of a hat, thus foiling the GOP and securing our future forever. For a brief moment a couple of weeks ago, I shared that optimism, but the last several days have slapped me soundly out of that fugue state.

I see a president on his knees, hands outstretched, offering the best ideas and policies liberal governance has ever devised up to the voracious carnivore of GOP opportunism. I see the end of the New Deal, and a far crueler America emerging from the aftermath. I see a Democratic president voiding his bladder on all that he is supposed to uphold.

Mr. Obama got on those knees again Monday night, on national television no less, and once again begged the GOP to devour Social Security and Medicare. He gobbled up the flawed, flayed premise of the far-right's deranged argument, again, and pleaded for the chance to give away the core of what he was elected to defend.

I thought I was done being ashamed of my president.

I was wrong.

[littleflower]

[quote="cowboyangel"](LF, the tobin tax is for all trades by anyone, this is how the billionaires make their money. Your analysis is flawed.)

No, my analysis is very general, and focused on the statement "Verizon paid no tax on $12B income." But at least it's objective. your posts are pure opinion.

of course, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't totally inaccurate ... i love the way some people take a bit of truth and blow it into something absurd. and i love it even more when a bit of absurdity is absolutely spot-on ... but that sort of thing comes only from hindsight, it seems. sadly.

[cowboyangel]

LF, That isn't true...about what you say about "opinion"...yeah some of it but most not. I guess like your republican friends you select out of context what you want to fit to your understanding. Now here's something that makes a lot of sense to me:

http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/index.cfm ... ntree=5,70

[littleflower]

oh, dear me, how many times must i say it .... i am not a republican. i'm not a democrat. i've never been affiliated with either party.

i think both parties have good ideas, both parties have bad ideas, and i want them to work together. pelosi had a chance to get her budget through, why didn't she do it???? how do you know it would fix all of our problems?

the current climate stinks, and i hate it. the sheep on both sides annoy the hell out of me. and yes, i would count you among them ..... i see little reason to believe that you understand how money is made, or how business works .... neither do you give a damn. you just "care" about the people. well, duh, if it was just so fucking simple it would happen. but it isn't. the economy is totally screwed right now .... 1.3% GDP????? businesses are afraid to hire people, afraid of stupid regulations, afraid of democrats ....... and this is what happens, dear. the PEOPLE suffer. blame the republicans all you want ... but this one is going to hit the dems even harder. i say throw 'em all out, and kill their fucking pensions.... i can't believe how they pay themselves.

but a bunch of sheep will probably keep most of them in office.

[ygmir]

oh, dear me, how many times must i say it .... i am not a republican. i'm not a democrat. i've never been affiliated with either party.

i think both parties have good ideas, both parties have bad ideas, and i want them to work together. pelosi had a chance to get her budget through, why didn't she do it???? how do you know it would fix all of our problems?

the current climate stinks, and i hate it. the sheep on both sides annoy the hell out of me. and yes, i would count you among them ..... i see little reason to believe that you understand how money is made, or how business works .... neither do you give a damn. you just "care" about the people. well, duh, if it was just so fucking simple it would happen. but it isn't. the economy is totally screwed right now .... 1.3% GDP????? businesses are afraid to hire people, afraid of stupid regulations, afraid of democrats ....... and this is what happens, dear. the PEOPLE suffer. blame the republicans all you want ... but this one is going to hit the dems even harder. i say throw 'em all out, and kill their fucking pensions.... i can't believe how they pay themselves.

but a bunch of sheep will probably keep most of them in office.

*swoon*............