Why did the DMV reject our couch?

[bdongray]

...La Contessa and the Green Shark are two very prominent cases in point...

Are you saying these two will not be out there this year?

La Contessa and the Shark were both asked not to return due to repeated safety violations...
http://afterburn.burningman.com/03/play ... tters.html

Pity, as they were great to see, and for me just happening to find a totally dark galleon in the middle of the open playa was an <I>AMAZING</I> experience. OK, it was stationary, so maybe I'd have had a different idea if it was driving recklessly.

BUT... as they were built for the 2002 "Floating World" theme, maybe it's time vehicles like this, designed for an old theme, should be redesigned for this years theme?

Earlier this year, I was thinking about changing a school bus (or large van) to look VERY much like the Starship Enterprise (Capt.Kirk style), simple (although BIG) parts added to the outside, painted well, nice lights added, to make it as perfect and look-a-like as possible. Very theme based, I'd have driven (carefully) about the playa giving anyone a ride to/from anywhere (as I've taken a ride from others when I've got a little tired after being out all night, so happy to be able to return the community favor). Maybe there'd have been some fun Star Trek activities/toys/fact sheets inside. But I didn't have the money (see "divorce"). Luckily from what I read, as I stringly suspect that it would have been rejected anyway, as it would not have been significantly changed in the original bodywork, just bodywork additions. So I'm glad I didn't waste a significant amount money, a lot of time, and probably a lot of effort to get rejected!

OK, it might have been accepted but...

Going further into my deepest thoughts and feelings, from what I hear about the DMV and many rejections, I'll own up to now not wanting to create <i>any</i> motorized vehicle anymore since all my efforts and money could all too easily be in vain if some DMV HotHead does not judge me creative enough, or does not feel the base of the vehicle is modified enough, or they don't like people with blue eyes, or whatever criteria they are rejecting good art vehicles for. I don't think this is what BurningMan is about, ie denying people to express their creativity. I understand the safety point of view, but from what I read of rejections by the DMV, BurningMan is losing what I thought creativity was all about. I also feel disappointed about probably not seeing simple artistic visions, even if they are based on a golf cart or ATV - <B>I enjoy seeing them</B>. If I see no motorized couches (and "so what" if it's really a creative mode of transport), I'll know BM is finished and it's probably time to look for (or create) another gift community similar event that does not deny artistic creativity.
For me <U>SynchroniCity</U> sounds appealing. It's also only one days drive for me anyway (not three), and I would be able to express my creativity without some self appointed, seemly unreasonable, fascist (<i>adj: oppressive, dictatorial control, including being judged without any appeal process</i>) authority to worry about. Also the ticket price at SynchroniCity is more in line with what something like this should be, unlike BM - close to 10x the price. I would have thought as the population got bigger at BM the ticket price would drop, not escalate, seemingly out of control, year after year. For me, since I never know if I'm going to get there (vehicle concerns with driving 2000 miles), I've always paid at the gate, willing to pay a bit more as "insurance" against not getting there, but I hear it's going to start at $350 this year - WAY TOO MUCH, especially if you include gas money, rental costs, etc - I could go to DisneyWorld. It makes me think perhaps some of the money is lining someone's pocket?
Is there a fully accounted for breakdown of the total incoming money and how it is allocated, distributed, spent, and donated, by the BMorg?

Or am I simply hearing more rumor about the initial gate ticket price?

Bryan

PS Maybe "fascist" is a little over the top! Sorry (see "venting").

[dragonfly Jafe]

Sorry to the original poster who got their vehicle rejected. Try to see it from the DMV's perspective - Did your vehicle add something to BRC for citizens other than those who were riding it at the moment? Perhaps next year you could add a few things for people walking by to look at and enjoy.

I too am starting to think about not doing the motorized thing anymore due to the hassle and stress associated with getting a motorized vehicle approved...(we were approved late, and I was really starting to stress over it)

I am now considering very large people powered vehicles (VLPPV). No rules (currently). Speed would be very slow (depending on how many people were working to make it go) and highly dependent on passenger participation. Probably still have to worry about DUI's though (if they can give them to bicycle riders...)

[dragonfly Jafe]

Sorry to the original poster who got their vehicle rejected. Try to see it from the DMV's perspective - Did your vehicle add something to BRC for citizens other than those who were riding it at the moment? Perhaps next year you could add a few things for people walking by to look at and enjoy.

I too am starting to think about not doing the motorized thing anymore due to the hassle and stress associated with getting a motorized vehicle approved...(we were approved late, and I was really starting to stress over it)

I am now considering very large people powered vehicles (VLPPV). No rules (currently). Speed would be very slow (depending on how many people were working to make it go) and highly dependent on passenger participation. Probably still have to worry about DUI's though (if they can give them to bicycle riders...)

[diggum]

The builders of the Shark car are friends of mine. I'm responsible for getting the initial few to Burning Man for the first time, and was the direct inspiration for the Shark car after some toys I purchased at a Wal*Mart in Reno.

The builder of the car is, all-in-all, a fairly mellow person who was concerned about its impact on pedestrians and being a good member of BRC. As their camp has grown in size, and every one of them would agree, there are a lot of folks there who do not give a fuck. When they get behind the wheel, it's with the belief that they've got the biggest car and fuck you if you're in the way. I'm glad that there's been such grief with the car as to get them to really realize what a problem it's become when certain people are driving it.

To be fair, many of the injuries resulting from it came the first day when it had it's side fins. people would run up to the doorways to look in and would just not pay attention to the wide fins at ankle level and got creamed. The fins were removed, and it's been much safer. Still obnoxious, though.

That said, don't be surprised if it returns in a new form, and with actual scheduled, safe drivers - not the original loadie crew behind the wheel. They've been trying to work with the DMV and BMorg to address the problems that have caused it so much derision.

I really like the idea of not only requiring permits for vehicles, but driver permits for any rig that carries passengers. You should really have to have a valid drivers license and be registered to drive a car, with DMV. Hold the people accountable who are causing the troubles, and let the art itself be appreciated. La Contessa and The Shark both took lots of people lots of time and money to create, and it's a shame that new people may not get to experience and appreciate them.

[Badger]

That said, don't be surprised if it returns in a new form, and with actual scheduled, safe drivers - not the original loadie crew behind the wheel. They've been trying to work with the DMV and BMorg to address the problems that have caused it so much derision.

Redemption for such numerous fuck-ups is going to be a long road to hoe. Not impossible but definitely NOT easy. I also agree with your assessment of the original owner/operators. They were camped across from my bud in 2002 and were generally cool, laid back and friendly. I have no idea what happened last year with the fuck-o's operating the shark. I do know that a good deal of the responsibility can be laid at the feet of your friend who in spite of any negativity from the rest of the camp - had an obligation to set boundaries and call the irresponsible people on their shit. You can bet that if he tries coming back that at the top of the question list is just how much responsibility he plans to take for his creation and how is he going to insure that fucking up is dealt with before Rangers/BLM/DMV have to get the aggravating call to impound the vehicle.

[Guest]

I think motorized sofas and lounge chairs kick ass. In this instance it seems mechanically alot of effort has been put into this project, but how about doing more than throwing a comforter over it. Maybe carpet the plywood, add fringes, upholster the sofa in trippy/fuzzy/weird material, add a canopy, or a coffe table and lamp. I think it's totally cool but it could use some more on the visual/decor side.

[Sandwichman]

This is just a thought that seemed to fit in this post.

It seems a lot of people are very conmcerned about the rules being implemented by BMorg.

Now there are a lot of large groups of people on the playa. You have your groups that are all part of the art car movement and also groups that are part of the sex camp movement, and many many more but these two seem the most pertinent right now. So here is my real question- why have none of these groups been trying to police members of their respective groups. It might have prevented BMorg from having to step in and enforce rules that no one wants. Even if you not the problem you were part of it by ignoring people who blatantly broke rules. I understand not stepping on ones experience but when someones actions will affect my future experiences that is a problem to me.

I see so many people on the Eplaya referring to problems and making suggestions that if there is a problem report it to a ranger or some LEO. I got to ask, WHY? We are all adults we should be able to help each other survive.

Sorry if this is way off but I just wanted to post my thoughts a new burner looking in from the outside(Until the 30th)

Jason

[Sandwichman]

Oh, almost forgot please correct me if you feel I am error in my statements.

I will never be to old to learn

Jason

[Badger]

I see so many people on the Eplaya referring to problems and making suggestions that if there is a problem report it to a ranger or some LEO. I got to ask, WHY? We are all adults we should be able to help each other survive.

Word!

[stuart]

these folks are not all part of a 'community' other than the burning man community. To my knowledge there is no 'sex camp' community or 'art car' community. They are all just burners doin' there thing. Some of them poorly enough that we now have rules.

[Sandwichman]

these folks are not all part of a 'community' other than the burning man community. To my knowledge there is no 'sex camp' community or 'art car' community. They are all just burners doin' there thing. Some of them poorly enough that we now have rules.

I am sorry I did not mean that to sound like there are secret clubs and handshakes. I meant to point out that people who drive art cars will be affected by rules imposed on art cars. And so at that point maybe people driving the art cars should help to ensure rules are not pushed upon them by helping to make sure fellow drivers are being safe and not driving in a way that will draw unneeded attention (except attention devoted to creativity).

Jason

[dragonfly Jafe]

these folks are not all part of a 'community' other than the burning man community. To my knowledge there is no 'sex camp' community or 'art car' community. They are all just burners doin' there thing. Some of them poorly enough that we now have rules.

Some attempt has been made to form an "Art Car" community - there are discussions about rules, safety, technical answers, who's camping where, etc. here (Jewelz peeks in every now and then):

http://www.armory.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/bm-artcars

can't say about the sex camp community...

[Mark Hinkley]

I'm fine with any kind of consistent, discernible safety standards they want to impose. But it feels like in order to just reduce the sheer number of vehicles, a new and subjective standard has been imposed - AND that standard is based on the evaluation of art.

The thing that attracted me to Burning Man was the idea that everyman was an artist. When everyone was expected to create art, and everyone did, all art was welcomed without judgment. It made it safe and fun to create art and people from other walks of life found a place to explore their creativity.

Now, if participation is going to be determined or disallowed based on anyone's judgment of artistic merit, Burning Man is throwing away the only thing I feel was truly original to it. Festivals, gifts, and demonstrations of expertise have been around an awfully long time without sparking the culture we are building.

There's no question this is an art car in the sense of being radically modified. There seems to be no substantial question of safety. It seems to be purely a matter of some invisible judge's evaluation of artistic merit.

But, as the last point in the official BM FAQ states, "If you can't agree to our rules..."

[Captain Goddammit]

That said, don't be surprised if it returns in a new form, and with actual scheduled, safe drivers - not the original loadie crew behind the wheel.

Why in the hell did he let just any drunk asshole at the wheel?
NO ONE drives my boat without me on board, and even then rarely.
Hell, I don't want to drive, but there's responsibility.

And Couch-Guy: that couch does need more work. There are several motorcouches that have all running gear concealed entirely beneath the couch, and look really cool. That one DOES look like a board with a couch slapped on it. Maybe some major effort at doing something with the rest of the space on it would go a long way, like the others said.

[theCryptofishist]

actually, my PM was a peace offering and an apology that i reacted so harshly.

I got that PM less than 24 hours after opening a truly disturbing one with an implied threat from a person I consider to be unstable. I was a little jumpy about opening anything from someone who had jumped down my throat on the board.

Apart from that, as a general rule, you might consider that a public fault is best apoligized for publically. That cleans both persons in the eyes of the community--boojums though they may be. I admit that it's hard. Look how long it took me to apologize to Captain Pyro for my use of the term "frat boy."

[Badger]

But it feels like in order to just reduce the sheer number of vehicles, a new and subjective standard has been imposed - AND that standard is based on the evaluation of art.

Another side of the issue might be to consider those folks who have no intention in investing any creativity in mutating a vehicle for the sake of artistic expression. Instead, they take advantage of the opportunity and guidelines to haul up a vehicle to the event with the sole purpose of using it as a means to carry themselves and select friends/camp mates comfortably around BRC. Marginally decorating it with tin foil, blinky lights or Christmas tree ornaments (as has been done in the past) and calling it art - especially in what's supposedly a pedestrian city - is bullshit. I think most of us realize that that emporer ain't wearin' no clothes. The sticky wicket comes about when defining art with all the to and fro arguments about what constitutes it. Like politics, religion and scotch no one's ever gonna get resolution around those big questions about what's good/bad, right/wrong, sucks/doesn't suck. The arguments will continue. From my perspective it appears that every effort in keeping out the art judegement thing has been seriously taken to heart by the members of the DMV team who are busting their ass to insure fairness and objectivity when evaluating a submission and granting or declining said submission based on the defined criteria as stated on the DMV web page.

[stuart]

after opening a truly disturbing one with an implied threat from a person I consider to be unstable.

WTF?

who does this nonsense?

[bdongray]

Another side of the issue might be to consider those folks who have no intention in investing any creativity in mutating a vehicle for the sake of artistic expression. Instead, they take advantage of the opportunity and guidelines to haul up a vehicle to the event with the sole purpose of using it as a means to carry themselves and select friends/camp mates comfortably around BRC.

I'm leaning more to the position of:
<B>so what</B>
if they want to drive <i>sensibly</I> around in a golf cart. Then I feel they can.
I'm sure the objective of BurningMan is not to impress Russell Simmons or Jane Fonda?

I believe the complaints have mostly been about recklessness and disregard to safety? I cannot see how pushing rules to make vehicles more artistic solves <I>that</I> problem.

If the idea is to improve safety through reducing the total number of motorized vehicles, then perhaps adding a fee to register a vehicle which is not art would keep the numbers down? Maybe the fee could be based on vehicle size or weight, so the Lexus is charged a big fee and the golf cart is charged something minimal. Moving couches are art - even if they are just a normal unaltered couch on some plywood on a motorized base. So no fee there. And we all get to see one of the landmark features of BurningMan.

Also a few people (including myself) enjoy the fact that a passing golf cart (or less impressive art vehicle) will accept a request for a ride. They don't even have to be going where I was going, because it doesn't matter, just to take in the city that way is a great experience in itself, as well as being able to connect with someone else for a few moments on the ride is good too.

Anyway, my son just said that a Lexus with a penis painted on the side <b>IS</b> art! And would sure be extremely funny to see.

[Captain Goddammit]

Anyway, my son just said that a Lexus with a penis painted on the side <b>IS</b> art! And would sure be extremely funny to see.

Your son scribbled on a piece of paper with a crayon and you proudly pasted it on your refrigerator as art at some point too, I'd bet...
We aren't your parents, the Lexus with a penis spray-painted on it is pretty sorry "art", even if your kid says he thinks it's great and you think everything he does is precious.
I don't want to see the Lexus, it's talentless and won't make me go "Wow, look at that, that's so beautiful! How in the hell did they do that?"

[bdongray]

Anyway, my son just said that a Lexus with a penis painted on the side <b>IS</b> art! And would sure be extremely funny to see.

Your son scribbled on a piece of paper with a crayon and you proudly pasted it on your refrigerator as art at some point too, I'd bet...
We aren't your parents, the Lexus with a penis spray-painted on it is pretty sorry "art", even if your kid says he thinks it's great and you think everything he does is precious.
I don't want to see the Lexus, it's talentless and won't make me go "Wow, look at that, that's so beautiful! How in the hell did they do that?"

As you should have guessed my son is not "a kid", nor does he use "crayons" anymore.
Just to let you know, I think you are pretty bad character to say the stuff about the fridge, and claim I see him as "precious". Or are you just making mockery because you have no thoughtout argument as to why something is or is not art, so you degrade yourself to throwing insults as a false way to think your opinion must be better than mine? What negativity! I hope you leave that at home when you come to BRC.

Look, when I mentioned to him about the Lexus idea, he laughed, said it would be amusing to see, which in it's own way would be art.... yes it is art.
By that he means conceptually, not necessarily visually.

I believe art does not have to be an enigma on "how" they did it, nor does it have to be visually stunning. If it evokes a feeling, opens someones mind to something new, or they appreicate a concept presented, then that's art. To think that art <b>must</b> be visually impressive is akin to saying poetry has to rhyme and be some predetermined specific rhythm. Or are you telling me poetry does have to rhyme and have specific rhythms?

Anyway, if there ever is a Lexus with a penis painted on the side, I'll not shun it, I will find it amusing, especially in light of these discussions about the DMV. Maybe you would too, or maybe you would still be narrowminded enough to not see it, and if that's the case, then feel free to walk away, but why deny my experience of being able to appreciate the concept?

BUT... I do agree that it shouldn't be driving around, as that <B>is</B> hazardous to pedestrians.

[massey]

here here i agree

i bringing my mercedes with a vagina painted on the side of it, your never know maybe it will get it on with the Lexus and be the start of something special

[massey]

I don’t really have a Mercedes, but if I did I would paint a vagina on it. And they would get 2gether and produce loads of mini Lexcedes, then I will sell them for millions and buy a Porsche and mate that with a Ferrari. Ummmmmmmm the possibilities are mind boggling

[Captain Goddammit]

As you should have guessed my son is not "a kid", nor does he use "crayons" anymore.
Just to let you know, I think you are pretty bad character to say the stuff about the fridge, and claim I see him as "precious". Or are you just making mockery because you have no thoughtout argument as to why something is or is not art, so you degrade yourself to throwing insults as a false way to think your opinion must be better than mine? What negativity! I hope you leave that at home when you come to BRC.

Look, when I mentioned to him about the Lexus idea, he laughed, said it would be amusing to see, which in it's own way would be art.... yes it is art.
By that he means conceptually, not necessarily visually.

I believe art does not have to be an enigma on "how" they did it, nor does it have to be visually stunning. If it evokes a feeling, opens someones mind to something new, or they appreicate a concept presented, then that's art. To think that art <b>must</b> be visually impressive is akin to saying poetry has to rhyme and be some predetermined specific rhythm. Or are you telling me poetry does have to rhyme and have specific rhythms?

Anyway, if there ever is a Lexus with a penis painted on the side, I'll not shun it, I will find it amusing, especially in light of these discussions about the DMV. Maybe you would too, or maybe you would still be narrowminded enough to not see it, and if that's the case, then feel free to walk away, but why deny my experience of being able to appreciate the concept?

BUT... I do agree that it shouldn't be driving around, as that <B>is</B> hazardous to pedestrians.

You mean your kid never had a crayon scribbling up on the fridge?
My mom put mine up, and she liked them.
I didn't say your kid was still scribbling on paper now.
What I was getting at is that the crayon on paper scribblings that almost every kid does, and almost every parent cherishes, is great artwork TO THE PARENT. If it was my kid I would too.
But no one else does! To everyone else it's just scribbles! Just to let you know, I'm not a bad character, you just didn't get the metaphor.

Daddy's Lexus with a penis spray painted on the side is the classic description of what would be the lamest excuse for an art car... because it would be! How about I paint a set of tits on my RV and drive it on the playa this year...

Just because something evokes a feeling does NOT make it art. Did it evoke a feeling when they cut off Nick Berg's head? So was that art? Art cars DO need to be visually impressive. You're gonna have us choked with golf carts with tin foil and Toyotas with trinkets glued to the hood.

If not wanting every Yahoo that puts a painted penis on their door to drive around at BM makes me narrow-minded, so be it. And so are most burners; there were more complaints about super-half-ass "art" cars all over the place than there was support for them.

[dragonfly Jafe]

As far as paying for art car liscences, there is nothing that creates a sense of "entitlement" like having paid a fee, especially if it is a big one.

Maybe a performance bond would be a better approach (if you behave, you get your $500 back, otherwise...)

[Mark Hinkley]

"Just because something evokes a feeling does NOT make it art. Did it evoke a feeling when they cut off Nick Berg's head? So was that art?"

I would respectfully disagree that this is EXACTLY what art is. An arrangement of sign stimuli that creates an impact by invoking inherited psychological reactions. Everything else is something else - beauty, meaning, quality, morality, none are prerequisites to being art.

I would say that the beheading of Nick Berg absolutely was art. Ghastly, monstrous, horrific - certainly motivated by extrinisic ends - but all still tremendously powerful and all art because it bypassed all critical thinking and evoked reaction at the seat of emotions. Very strong reaction, and highly effective art.

It was - at the same time - terrible art and a despicable act. But it was art nonetheless for the very reason you mention. I am certainly not arguing that the quality of art is off-limits to judgment, as everyone should judge beheading as unethical and unconsciounable. But the question of "what is art" is a simple one that does not involve related aesthetic questions about whether something is surprising, beautiful, original, difficult, or otherwise. Nor does it turn on the motives or intentions of the artist.

By this standard, I think the penis-painted Lexus would fail to evoke reaction in the nervous system. I think it would stimulate critical thought to say, "Lame, what a lazy fuck," but that is coming from the head and not the spine.

[Wendor]

I'm leaning more to the position of:
<B>so what</B>
if they want to drive <i>sensibly</I> around in a golf cart. Then I feel they can.
I'm sure the objective of BurningMan is not to impress Russell Simmons or Jane Fonda?

An admirable position, and you should feel free to go out and organize your own event using those criteria.

The organizers of THIS event, however, have decided that Black Rock City is primarily a pedestrian city.

Safety, impact/damage to the playa, and their own choices for what type of event they are trying to organize probably all figured into their decision.

[theCryptofishist]

after opening a truly disturbing one with an implied threat from a person I consider to be unstable.

WTF?

who does this nonsense?

Who do you expect?
(SXF "You're a mean one, Mr Grinch")

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=5297

[bdongray]

Firstly, let me apologize for *my* negativity. I could make excuses about the events, pressure, and extra crapthe outside world gave me yesterday. Sorry. I have no excuse for bringing that here. I'll be glad at BRC when the crap won't be able to make contact with me

OK, I do 100% agree that cars with minimal lame-assed excuses for art should not be allowed to drive around, that is just a hazard waiting for an accident. But... I am ok with golf carts with even minimal alteration (eg fur and tin foil) as long as they drive responsibility.
I do want to see motorized couches, and catch the occasional ride.

I have a possible idea to solve this, but go read about it, comment, brainstorm, improve upon, so BM2005 can be a better, safer environment, and can still have golf carts brought for mainly transportation requirements, or that have minimal artistic merit, or have excessive size requirements.

As I said, I do not see BurningMan as an event to promote keep fit! So as a city grows, so must the intrstructure - including larger roads for the growth of vehicles. <u>Go read</u>, and please help brainstorm a solution. Thanks.

[Steven bradford]

"I do want to see motorized couches, and catch the occasional ride. "

I think this sums it up for so many of the vehicles. Their purpose seems mainly to provide a ride, a way to get from point a to point b.

Which is not what the DMV is set up to Permit.

Many many people appreciate the fact that BRC is not a motorized tranport city, that the sole purpose of the Art Cars/Mutant vehicles is to entertain or amuse or tickle the art gland, but NOT to get around.

If you need to get around the city quickly, I recommend a bike. It's a lot faster.

The Oasis shower/party truck prolly wouldn't qualify if this were the first year entered. but itt has an established rep, all the DMV people have ridden or showered or just danced and drunk on it, and they know if you want to use it for transport, you're best getting off and walking. It's not moving around for that purpose.

If you can't use a bike, but must use at least an electric scooter or golf cart, then you can do that if it's due to medical neccesity.

[Interested bystander]

According to the latest JRS they had over 600 requests for art car registration. I am one of those that doesn't want to see 600...or 300...or even 100 motorized vehicles stirring up dust on the playa. Maybe the simple reason that your application was rejected was that they set a figure that they saw as a reasonable number of art cars on the playa, let's say that figure is X, and in terms of originality and merit they viewed yours as X+1. Maybe that figure was 300 and your project was number 301...at least you're better than the 299 other rejectees.

Disclaimer: All figures in this post are made up except the 600 mentioned in the JRS.