exodus

[kvd]

I have heard a number of different claims as to where the bottleneck lies.

There are of course some solutions that violate what some people view as the burner ethic. I personally believe that when you have a scarce resource and too much demand that markets are the best answer. I personally have no problem with selling exodus preference to those who donate the largest amount to BRAF or BMProject or similar, but I suspect others will think it's non-burner to do it this way.

There was a constant stream of vehicles using the vendor exit (12 mile, right? I think they call it Point 1 or Point 2) during the entirety of our exodus. I even saw that "Christina" giant art car that that douchebag camp douchebags around in leaving that way. Cars, Pickups and vans with campers, etc. It would have added up to several hundred vendor vehicles, if it's just vendors. Somehow I think it's not just vendors. Maybe that heirarchy you describe already exists.

But, whatever. I did Monday this year because the fucktoy I brought with me had to get back home earlier. I almost always go late Monday night or Tuesday early. It's such a breeze. It rather laze about another day and have a nonstop ride home than waste an entire day in line and fighting all the other dopes who are out on Labor Day, if possible. If I only had a week off each year I'd arrive on Tuesday and leave on Tuesday. Fortunately, I don't. In fact I camp on the playa bare minimum four times per year.

[bradtem]

Right. Publish data, accurate predictions, practically assigned departure times. Want to volunteer to make it happen? I didn't think so.

Not sure why you have to take this attitude about it? Of course I have volunteered to make it happen. What's needed is to get agreement on a system that's better and meets other hard criteria of being simple enough for people to use it. If the data are out there, I would love to get them and produce useful information from them -- happy to. Since I'm out of the phase I had a few years ago when I was doing 6 art projects in one event, I may even have some time!

When it comes to the vendors, if they exit by the 12 mile and the bottleneck is indeed 34 or later, then they are just butting ahead. Of course, if they are being paid to be there, they will just ant to bill for their time if they have to wait to leave, though frankly my time is worth more than theirs (on the market, not just in my view.) I've known of the 12 mile being used as well by people with medical problems (makes sense) and rangers and other volunteers. I got a medical pass one year, and in spite of being escorted out by Micheal (Danger Ranger) we got stopped 4 times by various intercepts so it is not easy to go out the 12 mile.

[phil]

I hate exodus, so Louise and I volunteer to work that day. I encourage others to do the same, planning on leaving Tuesday.

Some thoughts:
* Having everyone leave on Tuesday just shifts when exodus sucks
* Have the Temple burn Friday night and the Man burn Sunday. The Man used to burn on Sunday, and authorities switched it to Saturday to make traffic better on I-80 on Labor Day. The opera was on Friday; it doesn't happen now, so switch the Temple to Fri.
* Burners are hippies that are brain-dead by the time they leave. Expecting thought and planning from Burners on Sunday or Monday is too much. Brad has some excellent suggestions, and I seriously suggest to Brad that he take the bull by the horns and do the figures himself instead of asking that BMOrg do it. I don't expect anyone there to know as much as Brad does about the topic of bottlenecks nor to do a better job.
* Remember the panicky threads by people whose RVs were cancelled from non-availability? Having people with rental cars decide to stay an extra day without notice does the same thing to the people who were going to rent that car/RV/truck/whatever. Let's not screw other people out of their rental, please.

My two suggestions are to move the Temple burn to Friday and for Brad to do the math, survey, or whatever and figure out the bottlenecks. It's clear to all of us (I think) that moving tens of thousands of people out of BRC onto a two-lane blacktop is going to choke the highway. If there's a solution to that, I have no clue how to find it. Brad? You talk like you know how to solve it, so please do.

[junglesmacks]

Right. Publish data, accurate predictions, practically assigned departure times. Want to volunteer to make it happen? I didn't think so.

Not sure why you have to take this attitude about it?

Not sure why it's so hard for you to grasp the concept that it's a two lane highway that has to transport 50k people through it?

*knock*knock* McFly? Anyone home? THINK McFly, THINK.


It's a tiny two lane highway in the middle of the desert that can only handle so many cars at one time. I don't care if you pulse it, stroke it, coddle it's balls.. whatever.. You simply cannot change the fact that it's a tiny road that can only handle so many cars, and that 85% of the population will attempt to leave in the same 24 hour window. Unless you are volunteering for the committee to extend I-80 straight to the playa, all this psuedo intellectual babble that you're espousing amounts to mental tail chasing.

[junglesmacks]

I would have to say personally that shifting around burn schedules just to save a few hours at the gate is rather crazy, you think? The "sacred" temple burn that is so traditionally a time of quiet reflection on the last night being moved to Friday?

Man burning on Saturday night is and temple burn on Sunday is to me the best possible configuration for many, many reasons. The final party night, the final reflective night.. annnnnnnnd done. Perfect.

Trying to rob peter to pay paul on such a grand scale to save a few hours in line.. well.. maybe you can hear the sound of forehead hitting keyboard from where you're sitting.

* Have the Temple burn Friday night and the Man burn Sunday. The Man used to burn on Sunday, and authorities switched it to Saturday to make traffic better on I-80 on Labor Day. The opera was on Friday; it doesn't happen now, so switch the Temple to Fri.

My two suggestions are to move the Temple burn to Friday and for Brad to do the math, survey, or whatever and figure out the bottlenecks. It's clear to all of us (I think) that moving tens of thousands of people out of BRC onto a two-lane blacktop is going to choke the highway. If there's a solution to that, I have no clue how to find it. Brad? You talk like you know how to solve it, so please do.

[trueform]

I left Tuesday and drove right out. I don't think I will ever leave on a monday again. I rather enjoyed staying an extra day.

[Cheyenne]

Next year we are leaving tuesday too... it was horrible trying to get out on Monday with an RV full of dust which just made my asthma fucking horrible to deal with... and our camp truck got back to LA a whole 12 hours ahead of us by leaving first thing tuesday morning!!

[bradtem]

If nobody has the numbers already I can certainly lay out a system to get them. You need to measure volume, and average headway at the various spots so it isn't a one person job. But I've seen people with clickers counting -- I don't know if they are just counting totals or volumes or if their clickers are recording timestamps to measure headway. You can get pneumatic road tubes (those little black tubes you put across a lane) which will do the measurement in the various places and there are more modern technologies like infrared. The cheapest thing is probably to stick a camcorder with a large flash card and battery, there is even software these days to convert the video into traffic data.

But I know there is some data already.

A typical rural lane will do 2000 pcph, but it should be noted that trucks and rvs count for as much as 2 to 3 pc equivalent on the mildly rolling terrain we have like 447. I doubt anybody has tried to examine a traffic problem like burning man, it may be unique in the world -- around 15,000 vehicles I would guess, half of them truck/rv/trailer, one rural highway, mostly straight with a few rolling hills for 80 miles. I wonder if any bunching of the rv/truck/trailers makes sense or if spacing them is best.

At an ideal of 2000 vehicles/hour, which we can't attain, you can drain the whole city relatively quickly. We can't attain that but I think we could do much better. But again we need to know where the bottleneck is.

One interesting option would be to get a temporary closure permission on 34 for some distance (even from the 3 mile if it is open.) For 30 minutes of every hour, let traffic going north on 447 to Alturas use the extra lane and then go north. However, there is a problem here I have yet to resolve, which is the switching. When both lanes are going to gerlach you need to do a merge just after the transfer station road and before Gerlach and you need to stop that from being a bottleneck. The best way to do that is to say "I-80 traffic left lane, Alturas traffic right lane" as you approach the split. But during 2-way operation it has to be all traffic right lane as usual. Need to think more of there's a better way to do something like this which is not so labour intensive. And of course the non-burners would get ticked off, though the volume of non-BM traffic going north on 34 on labour day is pretty small. If 3 mile is open that could help.

[phil]

There was a constant stream of vehicles using the vendor exit (12 mile, right? I think they call it Point 1 or Point 2) during the entirety of our exodus. I even saw that "Christina" giant art car that that douchebag camp douchebags around in leaving that way. Cars, Pickups and vans with campers, etc. It would have added up to several hundred vendor vehicles, if it's just vendors. Somehow I think it's not just vendors. Maybe that heirarchy you describe already exists.

Louise and I were on Point 1 from noon to six, so I can contribute what my information is. Vendors and others have to have special credentials to use Point 1. So we let the water trucks, tow trucks, porta-potty trucks, and such through. Other individuals were given Point 1 credentials, and I have no clue who got them and how as non-vendors. If everyone in the vehicle had the credentials, the vehicle was passed through. Some of the people with credentials were DPW workers, going back and forth to their staging areas for taking down BRC. Since DPW crews are there for the long haul, they often were in cars, pickups, campers, and vans.

We also were required to let people from law enforcement through; many were in campers and trucks which were not marked police cars. BLM, for example, had many non-cops on site that were in trucks and campers. We also had Earth Guardians coming in and out to inspect the playa inside and outside of the trash fence, and they were in a ragtag assembly of vehicles.

From my view of the six-hour shift we served, all people were credentialed to use Point 1, some were not using it to leave the event but to perform services, and some were BLM and other LEO volunteers who were, indeed departing after their usefulness at the event ended. But I'm confident that many of the 'hundreds leaving' were going in and out all day doing work. I saw the same faces repeatedly.

I don't know what the Christina art car looks like, and I can't find any reference to it after a quick search at burningman.com. Let me know what it looks like, and if I passed it through, I'll tell you what I remember about credentials.

For information, we also did a shift at Point 1 on the Monday the event opened. Same rules: only credentialed individuals were allowed to use Point 1 for entry and exit. We did have people without credentials trying to use Point 1 both Mondays, and they were turned back. I expect other shift volunteers followed the rules, just as Louise and I did.

[phil]

Man burning on Saturday night is and temple burn on Sunday is to me the best possible configuration for many, many reasons. The final party night, the final reflective night.. annnnnnnnd done. Perfect.

Everybody said that when the Opera was on Saturday night and the Burn was on Sunday night, and the BLM made BMOrg change the Burn to Saturday. shrug -- to each his own.

If nobody has the numbers already I can certainly lay out a system to get them. You need to ...

You have contacts at BMOrg; do you want to get in touch and make some suggestions, or should I search around for the right person and ask them to contact you?

[Cheyenne]

hi Phil,

The christina Art car was essentially a cruiser ship on a low loader chassis... massive thing with a huge horn - had painted white and blue and a pretty shit sound system

[phil]

I don't remember the Christina passing while I was on shift.

[BBadger]

I was laughing all the way home after our 25-minute wait leaving the late morning of the Temple burn. Yeah, there are people who feel they simply must watch the last burn, but if you don't count yourself among them, there is a lot to be said about leaving early.

As for new "systems" or whatever to streamline the exodus: your ideas are not new; if there really were a better way, it would have been taken years ago. The fact of the matter is that leaving when everybody else is leaving means that no amount of systems, rules, etc. are going to improve your wait time. Period. So get over it and accept your fate. This reminds me of all the hair-brained "systems" people came up to deal with the "scalpers" this year that were never a core problem.

[bradtem]

As for new "systems" or whatever to streamline the exodus: your ideas are not new; if there really were a better way, it would have been taken years ago. .

I think the DMV improvement is a solid refutation of the idea that there isn't room for improvement, even dramatic room, in old systems. I am not saying we can improve exodus as much as DMV was improved, but there is still room.

It also depends on the budget. For example BMorg wants to expand to 70,000 folks and that's going to mean spending some money to make exodus work. It might be considered in-budget to grade, gravelize or even chip-seal the Trego road and crossing (and build a special intersection where 48 hits 447 since it's on the northbound side.) Chip-sealing one lane (you don't need to pave both directions) could be done for probably $400K, which is not that bad amortized over the many years it would last. Grading is much cheaper but would need to be re-done each year. This would provide an alternate exit for cars (I would not do trucks/rvs on the railway crossing without a good improvement of that too) doubling capacity until 447. This is why numbers are important. If 447 is the bottleneck this has less value, but I think the bottleneck lies in the turn on 34 and in Gerlach, which this bypasses. Flaggers or temp signal lights would be needed at the railway crossing and the 48/447. And I continue to recommend a temp signal light at the 9 mile.

(It still has a modest benefit because all those going north to Cedarville now have more ability to get out with half the cars going directly south.)

This is expensive, but shows what might happen outside the box.

[Raymaker]

NO cars, teleport everything in.

[bradtem]

The teleport option would be really good. One idea that's been investigated, with no success in the past, is a train to the playa. Ideally able to stop on the tracks for an hour at trego while a crane unloads all the shipping containers, but worst case stopping at the Gerlach siding to unload them. A lot of people would sign up for it since it would be particularly fast for the return trip since the tracks cross the smoke creek and go through a pass cars can't use to California. (It would take longer going in as the single track is one way and the train would have to go up to Winemuccca and come back.)

The other thing that would be cool, of course, is that it would be a giant burner train. Your event would start for you when you got on in Emeryville or Sacramento or L.A, and not end until you got back. And a fairly green approach to boot (far, far, far greener than anything you can do on the playa to be green.)

Sadly, union pacific has been unresponsive, even when burner UP employees tried, but who knows, perhaps it would change in the future. An on-playa siding would help.

To work best you would need multiple trains. "The big train" designed to reach the playa Sunday night for opening would be cool but has the downside of night-time arrival. And burners are notorious for not leaving on time but with a train you had better get your ass and gear to the train in time to load your gear into the shipping containers or you're driving both ways. (Even though you could pick up the outbound train in Reno you would not be able to get back to your car in reno easily on the way back.) A Sunday night train would not help the camps that need early setup but there might be enough demand for a Friday train. You would need a fairly involved transportation system to move people and shipping containers from the city to the rail stop, though if the stop were at Trego people could bike from it. But the non-camp cargo cars would be a nightmare to load and unload and transport to individual camps. (Shipping containers belonging to single camps would work out fine.)

So a lot of work, though with potential gain. Certain the train would be very appealing compared to 8 hour waits followed by 8 hour drives to get back to the Bay Area -- vs. perhaps a 2 hour loading wait and a 6 or 7 hour train ride with fellow burners.

[essjay]

A train (from SanFran, at least) makes perfect sense. Trains can handle the tons of luggage burners like to bring. There has to be a way to make it work. Less cars and exhausted drivers to worry about. I would love to leave the driving to someone else and have a few beers along the way. Sleep on the way back. Why isn't this a reality?

[bradtem]

As I said, Union Pacific (which owns the rail lines) has refused in the past.

And there is also quite a challenge to coordinate the unloading and transport of everybody's gear from wherever the train stops (be it Trego or Gerlach.) If you have an organized theme camp or group of camps which has a shipping container, you can get a crane to move those containers to trucks and drop them in the camps (BMOrg already offers this for containers stored in the area) but what do you do for the cargo areas of random burners? You would need to open up the boxcar and have people line up to take out their stuff, and assure they don't take out other people's stuff. And then get the stuff from the train stop to their individual camps, and get them to their camps.

The stuff is the sort of thing you see tied to the roof of cars on the drive. Bikes. Water. Random gear. Tents. If it were all crates and pallated material that's one thing but could burners do that? If a container arrives in/near your camp you can get stuff out and have a wagon or art car to move it. But from Trego or Gerlach? And also the railway would not allow you to move propane or gasoline or generators which have had gasoline or diesel. (Biodiesel is OK.) How do you police that? (Probably one reason the railway says no, the hazardous cargo question.)

Definitely would be great if it could be done but it's a tall order. And if it takes 1,000 or 2,000 cars out of the exodus line, fabulous.

Possibly the train could be only for people with only standard suitcases and crates of gear plus bikes, or entire shipping containers that burners self-organize. No loose stuff, even water. No gasoline or generators or propane. There are people who come with just a small amount of gear, perhaps there are enough to fill up some trains.

[BAS]

Just out of curiosity, why is biodiesel okay and not regular diesel? Was it just not thought of when the restrictions were made?

Thank you.

[theCryptofishist]

A train (from SanFran, at least) makes perfect sense. Trains can handle the tons of luggage burners like to bring. There has to be a way to make it work. Less cars and exhausted drivers to worry about. I would love to leave the driving to someone else and have a few beers along the way. Sleep on the way back. Why isn't this a reality?

Is there even a siding in Gerlach? I can't imagine how much time it would take to unload. I don't see a company whose business is moving freight would interfere with that lightly. Even when they rent the right to use the rails to Amtrak, they keep the right to put those trains on sidings for hours (or that's what it seems like) so freights can go through on time. In California that what a lot of delays which aren't derailments at Canterra Loop are.

[bradtem]

There is a siding in Gerlach -- you've seen it many times but of course are always heading somewhere else when you go by it.

Biodiesel is more like vegetable oil. When we were researching shipping big generators to Gerlach by rail, we discovered that you could not ship diesel generators without a hazardaous materials procedure, but biodiesel ones were OK. Not the generator itself but the residual fuel that would be in it.

[Bob]

Train service -- goodie, more Eurotrash.

[BBadger]

The DPW doesn't need to do anything to improve the exodus. You're simply not going to squeeze that many people onto the road regardless of how many lanes or whatever happen to give you the semblance of being closer to the gate to leave.

I actually welcome the fact that BRC is a pain to get to, get out of, and live in. It keeps the riff-raff out. I can only imagine the shear hell of suffering the presence of even more 3-day tourists showing up on Thursday night via light-rail to pollute the playa. As Bob put it: "Train service -- goodie, more Eurotrash" but extended to trash in general. I personally hope that the line wait discourages more people from attending, or encourages them to leave early. I left early. A Sunday morning exodus meant a mere 25 minute wait, most of which was the 5-mph driving to get to the gate itself.

I could see heavy rail service only be useful to transport cargo containers for larger camps. Still, unless there is dedicated storage for the event in Reno or wherever the line connects, it's not going to be worth the time and effort, and certainly not to transport people.

[AntiM]

There's no terminal in Gerlach, no staff for a once a year event... and no one is going to spend the money to build one to code. The burn provides no profit incentive to the UP, so there will never be a passenger train there, much less private cargo shipments. No working yard to offload the cars. UP has union workers, volunteers ain't gonna cut it. The idea of a train is pretty, but the reality is laughable.

Even if you take Amtrak into Reno, you still have to find a ride in and out of the event for you and your stuff.

[junglesmacks]

[moonrise]

Eh, I think I'll leave on weds if I can manage to stay that long, the extra sleep will be good for me

[Bob]

Suppose anything is worth thinking about, but I think the town of Gerlach is subjected to more than enough social & traffic engineering as a result of the event. You're not just dealing with UPRR, you're dealing with Washoe and Pershing county as well, and possibly the BLM if it's deemed to impact the event permit. Assuming that trains make a stop there every day, and there's a way to prevent the hippies and Eurotrash from wandering naked through residents' yards -- the plan anticipates a cost-efficient and timely tram system to and from the event that can deliver individual riders to and from dozens of different camps. Are you going to rely on art cars at the event end for ferrying passengers & luggage? Ever used the existing shuttle during peak traffic? Does your customer really want to change vehicles with their luggage two or three times along the way? Do all your customers even know exactly where they're camping? Does the package include shuttles and accommodations at the Reno end?

Some people already use licensed taxis, Green Tortoise, RV packages, or hitch rides with other ticket holders. Does that translate well to once- or twice-daily train service that only gets you incrementally toward your campsite destination? Does your tram get traffic precedence over other vendors? How does it benefit the local economy versus outside vendors?

I admit I can't relate well. When I worked DPW, I could pick my times to arrive and leave. Currently I've been arriving mid-week and leaving after the Man burns. A passenger train scheme would be entertaining to watch happen, though.

[bradtem]

Yup, as I said, UP has resisted the idea, and many other things make it quite difficult, but it sure would be nice if it worked.

[This Woman]

Junglesmacks, I’ll admit that you do seem super superior for admonishing us for talking about Exodus. But then again, we didn’t feel the need to come to a clearly defined thread of supposed no interest to us, and then…wait for it….whine about it. Thanks for the giggles, Smacks.

And by the way, shifting burn schedules to save a few hours at the gate is the reason the Man burns on Saturday now instead of Sunday. Don’t worry though, I’m sure your preferences will be held as the unchangeable standard of when to burn something, in fact I think I got a bulletin to that effect.

[This Woman]

Next year we’ll be leaving prior to the burn, around the time he’s lifting his arms. Ours is a registered theme camp, but Tuesday is not an option. Beyond work and school schedules, by Tuesday the event has ended. This changes things like liability, law enforcement issues, clothing optional issues and probably more.

It’s silly for the org to say Peak Hours as though there was a time during the event itself that wasn’t a peak hour. If we had listened to the ranger that advised us to park it for a few hours our exodus would have been 2-3 hours longer than it already was. Since the event is limited by access it makes more sense to change the burn schedules than to build another highway, or bring in a depot. I think it would also be more palatable than reducing the population or just accepting it as is. A new burn schedule would give two full days of event time to leave – 48 peak hours – and another day for the significant number that don’t stay for the temple burn.

But, I don’t think they’ll do that for a couple years, so we’re leaving early.