OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:22 pm

Well, I've just "Liked" a few more Facebook pages. I think public banking is a good idea who's time has come.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by BBadger » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:21 pm

Sola Gangsta wrote:As if people would put "envy" ahead of simple needs like food, sleep, shelter, showers... This is out of touch. People don't have a better way that I can see. There are people who through foreclosure are literally "out on the street" and on Wall street because they got kicked out of their house.
That seems about as "out of touch" as believing that everyone who attends Burning Man ("ahead of simple needs like food, sleep, shelter, showers") does so for pure motives.

Just as you claim there are people literally "out on the street" for foreclosure purposes, I'm also claiming that there are a lot of people out on the street who are unhappy that they aren't in on this action, who are envious of a group of people who are doing well, regardless of things like bailouts, etc.

Bear with me a moment here. Look at what this OWS is rallying against: it's not the nation's capitol, the symbol of those who stole from the public to bail out banks or other private institutions. No, it's Wall Street, the beneficiaries of these bail outs. This is like protesting a kid that is getting better treatment from the teacher, rather than protesting the teacher him/herself. It's not protesting the transaction that led to unfairness, it's protesting that the transaction was not also applied to you. It's saying "you have what I want, what I should have had too."

Envy usually isn't a conscious point of rallying. People don't like to think they're rallying around some cause because they just want to be like those they oppose. So the framing gets changed. Words are played. One of those words is "fairness."

Fairness seems like a benign, if not good concept, right? But where does the appeal to fairness come from? A discrepancy in benefits. A situation leading to envy. If one were content, there would be no need to protest right?

This is why I'm not really all that pleased with this OWS movement. I'm more pissed that, for example, the banks were bailed out at all. But I'm not going to complain to Wall Street. Wall Street doesn't care. Wall Street didn't write the bail outs. Who did? The officials in the government.
jkisha wrote:I think you are confusing "envy" with "fair" and equal treatment.
When someone steals from you, are you entitled to steal from another? Is that "fair and equal treatment"?

The bailouts should not have occurred in the first place. I consider it public theft. I wanted to see creditors who played with the fire of toxic mortgages crushed by their own greed. Banks should have fallen, their insurers taking massive hits to cover those losses. Likewise, those who were stupid enough to buy adjusted rate mortgages (yes, I called those people stupid even before the recession) should've suffered the consequences for their actions. Student loans? Those too. Credit card debt? Yup.

I know there is symbolism in Wall Street, but the emphasis on Wall Street is misplaced.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Sola Gangsta » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:47 pm

BBadger wrote:This is why I'm not really all that pleased with this OWS movement. I'm more pissed that, for example, the banks were bailed out at all. But I'm not going to complain to Wall Street. Wall Street doesn't care. Wall Street didn't write the bail outs. Who did? The officials in the government.
Or more accurately, the officials in govt who have buddies on wall street.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:52 pm

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by lurker » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:25 pm

Mission Statement: Occupy Las Vegas

The first questions that come out of anyone's mouth whenever a new political movement arises are, “Who are they?” and “What do they want?”

They are good questions that should be answered.

WHO are we?

We are the 99% of Americans who have not benefited from the various financial bailouts, tax breaks, and other subsidies that the dominant 1% of the population have gained over the past several years.

So, teachers, union workers, armies of federal bureacrats are part of the 1%? And, since government issued these financial bailouts, tax breaks, and other subsidies, why are you not 'occupying them?

We are students, veterans, homemakers, workers, the unemployed, those on Social Security benefits, those whose savings and investments were either wiped out or greatly diminished by the economic fluctuations starting in 2007.

I thought the social security recipients were at the Tea Parties--the Tea Parties certainly were made fun of often enough for being full of them. Also, since GM shareholders saw their savings and investments wiped out in favor of the UAW, will you be heading over to occupy the UAW next?

We are those who have had our homes foreclosed upon, those whose homes are about to be foreclosed, those whose homes are now worth a fraction of what we paid for them, and those who have never owned a home and don’t expect to ever be able to.

Isn't private property theft? And, since when is it the governments job to see that someone's investment maintains it's value no matter what the economy does--that sounds like you support a bailout of mortgagees.

We are the newly poor who wonder how everything for which we worked hard vanished so quickly and how we and our families are going to survive.

Really? How'd so many of you afford to travel to these 'occupy' sites then? Why didn't you organise where you're from?

We are the long-time poor, who have never had much of a chance, let alone a voice, to make our own way in our current social and economic system.

You do a lot of saying 'we', doncha?

We come from all backgrounds, races, and religions.

But mostly white, right? Just like that other movement. Of course, that makes sense, since the country is mostly white--but that didn't stop any of you from pointing that out about the Tea Parties

We are concerned about and more than a bit scared by the directions in which we see our lives, and the lives of our families, friends, neighbors going, the directions in which we see our nation and the whole planet going, and we are angry with those who have taken us in those directions.

Oh, THAT'S how you get to '99%'--that blanket statement covers everyone save a select few--and guess what--it covers bankers and Wall Street workers, too. They're probably more worried than you are because there aren't crowds of people massed to tell people how evil YOU are. Kill the tellers! Right? right?


We are part of a much larger global and national movement that wants real changes in how the world is run.

Self aggrandisement doesn't become you.

In short, we're you, and you are one of us.

No, I'm not. I do not have the desire to stop what I'm doing to whine for yet another 'people's revolution'. I do not want to demand failed policies and murderous ideologies. I know what you are. Listen to Simon. I am there, waiting. If you succeed, I will be ready. You will be prey. You need the government to protect your insane maunderings, your suicidal whining. I don't. And I am Legion. There are millions like me. We don't know each other. We don't plot. We don't plan. But I, and others like me stand ready. You should know that. The civilization that you rail against is all that protects you from the real monsters.

WHAT do we want?

We want an end to corporate money's influence in politics, whether through campaign donations, PACs, or other groups. Money is not speech.

Be honest, you want to end the influence of the corporations you don't like. Not ALL corporations.

We want truly effective campaign finance reform, so that corporations and other interests have no overwhelming advantage over the rest of us in any part of American politics.

Something like total transparency? Or something like public financing? One allows individuals a voice--the other serves the collctive.

We want far greater legal accountability for public officials and corporate executives, and we demand that, if found guilty of committing crimes while in office, they are made to pay for those crimes in full, like anyone else.

Like tax evasion? What about perjury?

We want our justice system to treat everyone equally regardless of origins or social class, at all levels and at every stage, from investigations to trials and sentencing.

Then why do you also whine about disparate impact?


We want an end to the continual attacks on our social safety net and on the rights of workers to organize themselves and, if need be, to strike to get better pay, benefits, and working conditions.

Ah, so you're not upset that the unions were helped by the bailout....and you want bailouts for mortgagees.....are you sure you want to go on?

We want secure and sustainable investments and improvements in our social infrastructure, like schools and libraries, and to create an America where everyone may actually live in a decent and dignified manner, an America where everyone's rights count and are respected by all.

So you want LARGER government.

This is who we are and what we want. We ask for no more and shall take no less.

So, let's see. You want bigger government, bailouts for those YOU think deserve them, silencing of corporations and other interests that disagree with you. That about sums it up

We are the 99% and we will not be silenced.

Oh, no one is trying to silence you--as you yourself noted--everyone's trying to get you to figure out why you're all sitting around in parks, like sheep overgrazing the commons.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:08 pm

You know, unless you're in the 1% or even the 2% of earners in this country; your thinking is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Wake up. Helping the middle class and the poor will in no way prevent you from achieving your dream; whatever it might be. And if the Occupiers are successful, it will only make achieving your dreams that much easier. OPEN UP YOUR EYES already.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by cowboyangel » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:23 pm

So lurker...ok to buy up $75 trillion in toxic BofA shitty derivatives with taxpayer money??? The #OWS kids have a worthy target and you are off the mark with a bunch of sloppy criticisms from your buds in the right corporate media.

Consistent with the Wall Street standard operating procedure of privatized profits and socialized risks, the Bank of America has allegedly transferred 75 trillion dollars in potentially toxic derivatives to enable the money to be covered by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC).

What does this mean in plain English?

It means that we, the taxpayers, are once again insuring the casino gambling financial bets of another bank too big to fail. So, while the Tea Party and the Republicans in Congress rail about cutting taxes, they are saying nary a word about taxpayers covering the shady financial gambling of big banks. The potential loss of $75 trillion, insured by government money, dwarfs budget deficit "austerity" talks.

And the Bank of America - although it is the largest US bank in total financial assets according to Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Illinois) - is not a good investment for taxpayers right now, even though it recently showed a profit on paper. According to Bloomberg:

Moody's Investors Service downgraded Bank of America's long-term credit ratings Sept. 21, cutting both the holding company and the retail bank two notches apiece. The holding company fell to Baa1, the third-lowest investment-grade rank, from A2, while the retail bank declined to A2 from Aa3....

Bank of America's rating is now four grades below the one Moody's assigned to JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM), the biggest U.S. bank by deposits at midyear, and a level below the rating given to Citigroup Inc. (C), the third-biggest. Bank of America is the only U.S. lender that lacks a rating of A3 or higher among the five firms listed by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency as having the biggest derivatives books.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by MOOP_Czar » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:19 pm

cowboyangel wrote:It means that we, the taxpayers, are once again insuring the casino gambling financial bets of another bank too big to fail. So, while the Tea Party and the Republicans in Congress rail about cutting taxes, they are saying nary a word about taxpayers covering the shady financial gambling of big banks. The potential loss of $75 trillion, insured by government money, dwarfs budget deficit "austerity" talks.
As an aside - casinos actually have better odds. A typical casino runs no more than an overall average hold of between 9%-10%. So for every 100 spent, if played right, you can walk out with between 90-91% of what they brought in.

It is kind of diconcerting to think the odds are better in a casino..
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by BBadger » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:06 am

jkisha wrote:You know, unless you're in the 1% or even the 2% of earners in this country; your thinking is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Wake up. Helping the middle class and the poor will in no way prevent you from achieving your dream; whatever it might be. And if the Occupiers are successful, it will only make achieving your dreams that much easier. OPEN UP YOUR EYES already.
Actually it's not jkisha, it's questioning the motives and goals of a movement who many, sadly, seem to have blind faith in. This whole OWS thing is taking on religious proportions, with people speaking of it as the "only" way to change anything, glossing over the more ridiculous claims and demands to concentrate on the whole "feel good" nature of the movement, even heresy-like accusations against people like the one holding that "I'm not the 99%" sign. Will you soon be knocking on doors and asking "Have you heard the good news?" My eyes are open, are yours?

You speak of this lofty "success" that you believe the Occupiers can achieve. Let me ask you, what defines "success" for that movement? Can you name it? The protesters in Tahir Square had a hard time defining their "success" and ultimately settled on the weak criterion that Mubarak step down. Who or what is the "Mubarak" in this case? Is the change only symbolic?

I really do want to know. I want to be convinced, and not by faith. I've read the website, but other than a list of grievances, there is no plan or purpose to the movement. This OWS is trying to play itself out like Martin Luther nailing a set of demands onto the All Saint's Church door. However, unlike the Reformation, the "Protestants" of Wall Street are not forming an alternative way, but instead most just want to get their cut from the current system.

It's like Martin Luther complaining that indulgences weren't being fairly distributed.

I can't abide that.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by lurker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:05 am

So lurker...ok to buy up $75 trillion in toxic BofA shitty derivatives with taxpayer money??? The #OWS kids have a worthy target and you are off the mark with a bunch of sloppy criticisms from your buds in the right corporate media.
The government spends taxpayer money, not the banks. The government. If you can't even understand that, how can anyone think you can understand anything? The banks are simply operating within the laws they are given. Laws put in place by the government.

Get it yet?

This big corrupt government is the problem. Not the banks.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:05 am

Just curious why so many people question OWS' motives. I'd trust their motivations before those of the Koch backed Tea Party any day. Just hearing how Fox is reporting on them, and how the Republicans are reacting to them tells me they are on the right path. Time will tell...
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:10 am

I'd agree, most of the blame lies with gov.

I'd also submit (again) that part of why the marches are on banks, is because, most of the OWS folks, support the current administration, and would not want to make them look bad, especially this close to an election.
And, don't "brush that idea off"........you know, there are people at the lead, that, get "input" from politicos and such.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:13 am

ygmir wrote:
I'd also submit (again) that part of why the marches are on banks, is because, most of the OWS folks, support the current administration, and would not want to make them look bad, especially this close to an election.
And, don't "brush that idea off"........you know, there are people at the lead, that, get "input" from politicos and such.
I think you are wrong about this.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:16 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
I'd also submit (again) that part of why the marches are on banks, is because, most of the OWS folks, support the current administration, and would not want to make them look bad, especially this close to an election.
And, don't "brush that idea off"........you know, there are people at the lead, that, get "input" from politicos and such.
I think you are wrong about this.
about all of it?

yeah, I'm just guessing, of course. it'd be interesting, to know the political demographics, of the general populations there. I'd still bet, it's very "left justified".
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:20 am

come yggy, sit down and have a drink in that strange land where the right meets the left.

it's called freedom.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:26 am

oh, I'm totally there............and I support the OWS.
Most of my original point is, that I agree and feel, that gov. deserves a ton of the blame for where we are. I'd say, (if there were any left), "the buck stops there".
Truly, much of what has happened, could/would not have, had not regulations been changed, regulators "looked the other way", probably "pay offs".
Of course, this is the cynical self talking.....the one who does not trust much of what gov. does, says, or tells us.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:30 am

ygmir wrote:oh, I'm totally there............and I support the OWS.
Most of my original point is, that I agree and feel, that gov. deserves a ton of the blame for where we are. I'd say, (if there were any left), "the buck stops there".
Truly, much of what has happened, could/would not have, had not regulations been changed, regulators "looked the other way", probably "pay offs".
Of course, this is the cynical self talking.....the one who does not trust much of what gov. does, says, or tells us.
I agree with all of this.

Notice that I removed your first sentence ascribing blame to the government when I made my first reply.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:38 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:oh, I'm totally there............and I support the OWS.
Most of my original point is, that I agree and feel, that gov. deserves a ton of the blame for where we are. I'd say, (if there were any left), "the buck stops there".
Truly, much of what has happened, could/would not have, had not regulations been changed, regulators "looked the other way", probably "pay offs".
Of course, this is the cynical self talking.....the one who does not trust much of what gov. does, says, or tells us.
I agree with all of this.

Notice that I removed your first sentence ascribing blame to the government when I made my first reply.
I didn't notice your edit, previous. I sure wish the "strikethough" code worked still............
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:56 am

When a democratic government goes awry, why blame the government and not the people?
We are the watch dogs and we've been sleeping.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:12 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:When a democratic government goes awry, why blame the government and not the people?
We are the watch dogs and we've been sleeping.
Another favorite quote of mine..."People deserve the government they get."

Apathy is easier.

But now that the effects of years of apathy is starting to have a real effect in the majority of middle class pocket books, people are starting to care. Nobody cared how rich and powerful the uber-wealthy were getting as long as they felt they were getting their share of the pie. But the rich got too greedy. Let them eat cake!
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:23 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:When a democratic government goes awry, why blame the government and not the people?
We are the watch dogs and we've been sleeping.

prescient, and with clarity............another "Douglyism" for my notes.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Bob » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:16 pm

Yeah, the Hopeniks (Hopies?) kinda disappeared after the 2008 election. Do they have a candidate yet?
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:02 pm

ygmir wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:When a democratic government goes awry, why blame the government and not the people?
We are the watch dogs and we've been sleeping.

prescient, and with clarity............another "Douglyism" for my notes.
At your service milord. :)

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:31 pm

This is only one voice that says it better than I:

The impetus behind the Occupy Wall Street movement - a vague sense that the rich are getting ever richer while everyone else suffers - was confirmed by a recent report from the Social Security Administration showing that while total employment and average wages remained stagnant, the number of people earning $1 million or more grew by 18% from 2009 to 2010. Those figures give real substance to the "We are the 99%" slogan, yet Republicans continue to insist, despite all evidence to the contrary, that if anything those "job creators" deserve an even greater share of our national income. The Tea Party, meanwhile, has launched its own "53%" movement, inexplicably rallying the working class to the defense of the wealthy. The one group rarely heard from in this rancorous debate is the 1%, whose incomes and taxes are its focus. I am one of them, and here is my perspective, which may surprise you.

First let me note that I am not part of the yacht and private jet set, which represents an even smaller subset of incomes than mine. The threshold for inclusion in the top 1% of income earners in 2008, the most recent year for which published data is available from the IRS, was $380,354, enough for an extraordinary life but nowhere near enough for a harbor berth in St. Moritz. Nevertheless, I am - for now - comfortably ensconced in that demographic. Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan would save me roughly $400,000 a year in taxes, and President Obama's tax proposals would cost me more than $100,000, yet I support the latter and consider the former laughable.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:23 pm

Just watch a movie called "Margin Call".

Good movie with a great cast.

If you can understand it, you will like it.

If you can't, you won't.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:31 pm

jkisha wrote:This is only one voice that says it better than I:............The one group rarely heard from in this rancorous debate is the 1%, whose incomes and taxes are its focus. I am one of them, and here is my perspective, which may surprise you.
............

**snipped**pport the latter and consider the former laughable.

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hey, why didn't he post his picture with this?
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:05 pm

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:This is only one voice that says it better than I:............The one group rarely heard from in this rancorous debate is the 1%, whose incomes and taxes are its focus. I am one of them, and here is my perspective, which may surprise you.
............

**snipped**pport the latter and consider the former laughable.

read more
hey, why didn't he post his picture with this?
:lol:


To once again quote Herman Cain "That's apples, this is oranges."
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:25 pm

lurker wrote:
So lurker...ok to buy up $75 trillion in toxic BofA shitty derivatives with taxpayer money??? The #OWS kids have a worthy target and you are off the mark with a bunch of sloppy criticisms from your buds in the right corporate media.
The government spends taxpayer money, not the banks. The government. If you can't even understand that, how can anyone think you can understand anything? The banks are simply operating within the laws they are given. Laws put in place by the government.

Get it yet?

This big corrupt government is the problem. Not the banks.
The banks are the government. The Federal Reserve is a grouping of private banks who set monetary policy for the US. The government doesn't tell them to print money- Ben Bernanke and the Board of Fed governors do. The financial sector has their people, like Rubin, Paulson, Geithner, Summers, Dick Army infected into the highest levels of government where for the past two decades or so, they have been steadily dismantling any protections or creating new monsters, that were watch-dogging the financial sector...like Glass-Steigel and the evil Financial Services Modernization Act ( Dick Army) . If you think the government actually "runs" anything then it it is you who are seriously deluded.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:30 pm

ygmir wrote:I'd agree, most of the blame lies with gov.

I'd also submit (again) that part of why the marches are on banks, is because, most of the OWS folks, support the current administration, and would not want to make them look bad, especially this close to an election.
And, don't "brush that idea off"........you know, there are people at the lead, that, get "input" from politicos and such.
Woahaaaa....sorry ygmir, that is totally fucking untrue. The OWS are demanding an end to corruption and corporate money in both parties. The Dems are just as bad as the repugnant republicans. If anyone has let the 99% down it's the spineless, gutless, Wall St ass-kisser in the White House. He's so far taken more money from banks and Wall St than all loser republican candidates combined. Think about that. The OWS has.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:35 pm

ygmir wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:When a democratic government goes awry, why blame the government and not the people?
We are the watch dogs and we've been sleeping.

prescient, and with clarity............another "Douglyism" for my notes.
Ugly...sorry pal another piece of shit. The SEC, the FBI (agents investigating financial crime cut way back to ridiculous by the Bush admin), the asleep at the wheel Justice Department, Congress....these are folks who are "supposed" to be the watchdogs. If citizens were the watchdogs things would be far worse...hey...maybe they are....
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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