OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:59 pm

Well said.

Fresno has a Santa Rampage?
theCryptofishist wrote:High Speed Rail
In general, transportation is a good infrastructure investment. Most of the great cities of the world are on trade routes, and that's been true for centuries. The Eric Canal opened up all the great lakes region and made New York City the main east coast port and must have really made Chicago into the Second City as well. And the railroads made huge amounts of money when the opened up the West.
I'm lucky enough to know a man, now retired, who spent most or all his career in the transportation planning business. And I work for one of public agencies working with the High Speed Rail Authority, so I have some insight there. The retiree and I had a discussion about a year ago, and he told me that California was probably the best place in the country to introduce HSR, because there was a large population, but there was also enough empty (-ish) space to build straight-aways where the train could hit those high speeds. And then there it all gets into politics.
The environmental work is on-going, and some people are pretty pissed. (I believe Kings County supervisors have asked that the project by-pass the county, for instance.) It's going to take a long time to build, and it's going to be expense.
At this point in time Merced to Fresno to Bakersfield just seems ridiculous, I agree. They went for the "easiest" section first. Even if the rest of it isn't built I can see some use for the two sections. All three cities have universities, which means that ideas and face-to-face meetings (and the internet will never completely replace a handshake) and professors and students would be able to travel up and down the corridor, and universities are good for generating economic activity, too.
And if the whole thing were already built, well, Jax Dee would have known how to get from Los Angeles to Fresno, no problem. People in the Central Valley could commute daily to San Francisco and Los Angeles. jkisha and I could arrange to meet each other in Fresno and have a Santa Rampage next month. Tourism. And long-term it's possible it will be the plane. Rail is a much more efficient (per gallon of fuel) mover of people than airplanes and gas is only going to go up. When rail is as cheap or cheaper than a plane and takes about the same amount of time, with less hassle, there will be a lot of demand. Plus the greenhouse gas savings--I know many people don't believe that, and I'm not going to argue about, but I want that on the table. And with the rail in place, Fresno and Bakersfield and Merced may actually become exciting destinations in of themselves. But it will take time. These are long term investments.
And, of course, we can't be sure that it will work out. It's a gamble. And the politics. And the ephemeral wetlands. And the possibility of induced growth into land that should be kept open. But, the window of opportunity to get the alignment won't be open forever. And I think we should be funding both new infrastructure and upkeep on the old infrastructure. And universities. We just have no idea what the roots of our prosperity are, so we don't water them. Bad practice in my view.

Vaccinations
Nobody makes money on the flu vaccines. Nobody! They don't make enough money--and we are putting our lives and our communities at risk by not having enough. If we get another influenza--and we will, maybe not in our lifetimes, but it will come--people will be dieing, children will be orphaned, or vice-versa, perhaps even mass graves, not enough health care workers so people dieing alone, people abandoning sick family members in order to escape the virus...And No Extra Vaccine, Because We Don't Make Enough. (Can you imagine riots of people trying to get the vaccine--because they will...) Okay, these examples are pretty much from the 1918-19 pandemic, and that's probably the worst outbreak ever. But it is a deadly disease and it is a simple vaccination, and I get my shot every single year. For Scott, if you must know, he'd hate it if I died of something so simple to avoid.
(Yes, the hpv virus shot costs a lot, and it's really hard to say "much smaller chance of cancer in 30 years" if you have to come up with $200 for each kid, but long term, that's probably a good investment too. $200 isn't going to go very far in cancer treatement... And the drug company deserves something for coming up with it...)
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:56 am

Revoke corporate charters to control multinationals.

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2002/ ... corp1.html
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:13 am

Sola Gangsta wrote:Hope I don't see too many more ideas...

Image
dang, the lightbulb phots seems not to have transferred. never mind, I figured out how.

This, is great!! such a good analogy, IMHO. Thanks SG!!

I see it applicable in so many areas. I see the high speed train, specifically.
I'm not against the idea, JK, Fishy. I just see it, as the photo above...............
I bet, that, would be a project much better handled "private sector"...........If it were plausible, and profitable, it'd be built.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:54 am

jkisha wrote:Well said.

Fresno has a Santa Rampage?
Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:57 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
jkisha wrote:Well said.

Fresno has a Santa Rampage?
Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
isn't Fresno where the have the annual "running of the sheep?"
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:01 am

ygmir wrote: I bet, that, would be a project much better handled "private sector"...........If it were plausible, and profitable, it'd be built.
Ah, but those big projects have to be built by government, or at least a public/private partnership. Private parties don't have the resources. I suppose that the big multi-nationals could now afford one, but they don't have any interest in building one. I say that they are worth the government investing in because it's in the public interest, and because the costs are so big that it'll take a couple of decades for the investment to pay off. I'm guessing that when they built and improved, for instance Highway 49, that they didn't precisely anticipate that decades later there would be a healthy tourism industry looking at old gold country boom towns, or that someone could restore those headstones based miles and miles away from them. And a one or two man shop can't invest in a highway, and a multi-national wouldn't care to wait that long for such an odd little return. So, I'm glad they built 49, for my own sake (I've been on part of it) as well as for the sake of any mythical small business man in headstone restoration.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:02 am

ygmir wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
jkisha wrote:Well said.

Fresno has a Santa Rampage?
Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
isn't Fresno where the have the annual "running of the sheep?"
Yeah, but that's harder for me to participate in.
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by unjonharley » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:09 am

ygmir wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
jkisha wrote:Well said.

Fresno has a Santa Rampage?
Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
isn't Fresno where the have the annual "running of the sheep?"
Figjam keeps up to date on things like that..

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:10 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
ygmir wrote: I bet, that, would be a project much better handled "private sector"...........If it were plausible, and profitable, it'd be built.
Ah, but those big projects have to be built by government, or at least a public/private partnership. Private parties don't have the resources. I suppose that the big multi-nationals could now afford one, but they don't have any interest in building one. I say that they are worth the government investing in because it's in the public interest, and because the costs are so big that it'll take a couple of decades for the investment to pay off. I'm guessing that when they built and improved, for instance Highway 49, that they didn't precisely anticipate that decades later there would be a healthy tourism industry looking at old gold country boom towns, or that someone could restore those headstones based miles and miles away from them. And a one or two man shop can't invest in a highway, and a multi-national wouldn't care to wait that long for such an odd little return. So, I'm glad they built 49, for my own sake (I've been on part of it) as well as for the sake of any mythical small business man in headstone restoration.
*chuckling* well played, my Fishfriend............yeah, again, I don't deny what the HST would do, more, I think it's not the right time, to put scarce resources into it. The money shouldn't be printed, just to pay for it, IMHO.

well, Hwy 49 evolved, long before the state took it over......large parts of it were privately constructed, to link the mining towns for ease of commerce and travel. Logging also had a big part in it. It was an already established trade route, before the state took it, and improved it. I'd also submit, the state, at the times they did it, could afford to. Individual counties, also participated.
But, I do know what you mean, and, your point is well taken.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:12 am

That's just cruel!

You know I can't catch em anymore.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:13 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
ygmir wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
isn't Fresno where the have the annual "running of the sheep?"
Yeah, but that's harder for me to participate in.

only the sheep have to run.....you can participate by any means you wish...for instance, some like to be chased by the sheep, others, like to chase. Ask Figjam, he's the expert in both, according to UJH.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:13 am

I guess I think that we could well afford it if we'd only stop involving ourselves in self-destructive wars so that nasty corporations can siphon off our wealth by means of contracts to run the damn wars. And that there would be a nice interim pay off on the jobs front as earlier mentioned.

And I'm only sold on the idea in an abstract sense. I don't know enough about these particular proponents, and they do seem to have trouble integrating the needs of the various stakeholders.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:14 am

With high-speed rail, Fresno and Merced and Bakersfield could begin to expand in population and wealth. People need to have some vision.

San Jose and Cupertino were once sleepy farming villages.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:15 am

theCryptofishist wrote: Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
ygmir wrote:isn't Fresno where the have the annual "running of the sheep?"
theCryptofishist wrote:Yeah, but that's harder for me to participate in.
ygmir wrote:only the sheep have to run.....you can participate by any means you wish...for instance, some like to be chased by the sheep, others, like to chase. Ask Figjam, he's the expert in both, according to UJH.
You have no idea what happens when a wheel runs through sheepshit, and turns and comes into contact with the hands of the person doing the turning.

And no, I'm not going to knit 539 sheep diapers.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:17 am

I think I heard that the first cost projection was 30 billion, but could run as much as 50 or 100. :shock:
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:18 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: Not now that I know of, but HSR could put it on the road to glory!
ygmir wrote:isn't Fresno where the have the annual "running of the sheep?"
theCryptofishist wrote:Yeah, but that's harder for me to participate in.
ygmir wrote:only the sheep have to run.....you can participate by any means you wish...for instance, some like to be chased by the sheep, others, like to chase. Ask Figjam, he's the expert in both, according to UJH.
You have no idea what happens when a wheel runs through sheepshit, and turns and comes into contact with the hands of the person doing the turning.

And no, I'm not going to knit 539 sheep diapers.

in all worthwhile endeavors, there are risks.......
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:38 am

FIGJAM wrote:I think I heard that the first cost projection was 30 billion, but could run as much as 50 or 100. :shock:
That's not even "real money" anymore:
http://trentonian.com/articles/2011/11/ ... 471831.txt
Quadrillion is the new million.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:45 am

I'll just pretend that none of that sheep stuff just was never posted. But I want to add that there are some projects that should NEVER be done by the private sector--Infrastructure Projects (including high speed rail), Health Care, and a myriad of others. Private/for profit builds only with profit and benefiting the bottom line and shareholders. Public/not for profit/government builds without profit motivation and to benefit the country and its population, which often has benefit for private business.

Always the reason for using the private sector is "they can build it better/cheaper"; but that never considers what happens after it is built and the amount they decide to charge for those that need to use their service. Somehow the "competition will keep the costs down" never seems to be a part of the equation after those "better/cheaper" projects are built.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:47 am

Enough Sheep Shit.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by knowmad » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:14 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:With high-speed rail, Fresno and Merced and Bakersfield could begin to expand in population and wealth. People need to have some vision.

San Jose and Cupertino were once sleepy farming villages.
Yeah like Frisco needs a "High Speed Rail"...
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Dr. Pyro » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:00 pm

John, I don't mean to sound critical, but you are an idiot. There are some things that should almost exclusively be done by the private sector: health care, high speed rail (which they won't do because unlike the useless liberal government they understand hardly anybody will ride it, it will have cost overruns into the multi-billions, and would never remotely be profitable. Only union thugs would make any money if the government did it, as most everything else this brain-dead administration gets their incompetent paws into), and most infrastructure projects, though with some government backing. If I want my street to get paved, I'd rather have Granite Construction (GVA on the NYSE) do it quickly and properly than waiting for some liberal bureaucrat in D.C. to fuck it up completely. Of course since you're a complete idiot and socialist with no understanding of the way free markets actually work I cannot expect you to agree because, well, like I said, you're an idiot.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:John, I don't mean to sound critical, but you are an idiot. There are some things that should almost exclusively be done by the private sector: health care, high speed rail (which they won't do because unlike the useless liberal government they understand hardly anybody will ride it, it will have cost overruns into the multi-billions, and would never remotely be profitable. Only union thugs would make any money if the government did it, as most everything else this brain-dead administration gets their incompetent paws into), and most infrastructure projects, though with some government backing. If I want my street to get paved, I'd rather have Granite Construction (GVA on the NYSE) do it quickly and properly than waiting for some liberal bureaucrat in D.C. to fuck it up completely. Of course since you're a complete idiot and socialist with no understanding of the way free markets actually work I cannot expect you to agree because, well, like I said, you're an idiot.
Sorry, but we seem to disagree on who the idiot is here.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:06 pm

Doc can you fill me in on the recent shortage of critical prescription drugs? Some sort of conspiracy hatched by the liberals?


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/753099
The main reason for the current drug shortages, he contends, is the very low price of many generic cancer drugs — an injectable drug produced under sterile conditions can be priced at only $2 per vial, he pointed out. The fact that manufacturers do not want to produce these drugs in an unrewarding marketplace has led to the shortage crisis; it is also responsible for driving community oncologists out of business, he said in an interview.

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Bob » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:09 pm

knowmad wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:With high-speed rail, Fresno and Merced and Bakersfield could begin to expand in population and wealth. People need to have some vision.
San Jose and Cupertino were once sleepy farming villages.
Yeah like Frisco needs a "High Speed Rail"...
Hey, the route links up ninety-nine percent <drink> of the meth labs & consumers in the state. Why do you hate commerce?
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by knowmad » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:15 pm

Bob wrote:
knowmad wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:With high-speed rail, Fresno and Merced and Bakersfield could begin to expand in population and wealth. People need to have some vision.
San Jose and Cupertino were once sleepy farming villages.
Yeah like Frisco needs a "High Speed Rail"...
Hey, the route links up ninety-nine percent <drink> of the meth labs & consumers in the state. Why do you hate commerce?
I don't hate comerce!
It's just that 99% of couch fires are started by Meth-heads who fell asleep. ....
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by gyre » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:21 pm

The first batch never explodes.


After that ...

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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:33 pm

knowmad wrote:
I don't hate comerce!
It's just that 99% of couch fires are started by Meth-heads who fell asleep. ....
Really? I thought they were started by foxfur and friends. :shock:
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by Elderberry » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:34 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Doc can you fill me in on the recent shortage of critical prescription drugs? Some sort of conspiracy hatched by the liberals?


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/753099
The main reason for the current drug shortages, he contends, is the very low price of many generic cancer drugs — an injectable drug produced under sterile conditions can be priced at only $2 per vial, he pointed out. The fact that manufacturers do not want to produce these drugs in an unrewarding marketplace has led to the shortage crisis; it is also responsible for driving community oncologists out of business, he said in an interview.
Sounds like another good reason for public health care to me.
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by cowboyangel » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:37 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:John, I don't mean to sound critical, but you are an idiot. There are some things that should almost exclusively be done by the private sector: health care, high speed rail (which they won't do because unlike the useless liberal government they understand hardly anybody will ride it, it will have cost overruns into the multi-billions, and would never remotely be profitable. Only union thugs would make any money if the government did it, as most everything else this brain-dead administration gets their incompetent paws into), and most infrastructure projects, though with some government backing. If I want my street to get paved, I'd rather have Granite Construction (GVA on the NYSE) do it quickly and properly than waiting for some liberal bureaucrat in D.C. to fuck it up completely. Of course since you're a complete idiot and socialist with no understanding of the way free markets actually work I cannot expect you to agree because, well, like I said, you're an idiot.
Oh for Christ's sake Pyro, you just descended a few miles in my regard for you with your childish name calling of Kisha and foolish assertions that "union thugs" will make out on public sector work. Unions are virtually dead and steadily loosing ground...see Scott Walker if you have any doubts about that. If California had a "public" bank like North Dakota has, the BND, 1/3 of construction costs would be wiped out right away because a state bank would charge zero interest for state construction projects. North Dakota, largely because of its state bank, has 3.5% unemployment and about a one billion dollar surplus. That's "socialism" that's working for the people. FRD's NRA and "public" "government" work projects put Americans back to work during the last depression, not private sector jobs.

You're blowing FOXish smoke up somebody's ass buddy.

Oh and this one is capital...." Of course since you're a complete idiot and socialist with no understanding of the way free markets actually work I cannot expect you to agree because, well, like I said, you're an idiot."

Free Markets got us into this deep recession, not unions, not poor home loan borrowers, not social security, not medicare, certainly not Obama ( Remember Bush? ) though I probably despise him as much as you do, though for different reasons. While John was fighting the Viet Cong, what were you doing buddy?

Thunderdome anytime dude.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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ygmir
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Re: OCCUPYWALLSTREET REINFORCEMENTS!

Post by ygmir » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:56 pm

some people sure are sensitive...............treat their politics, like a religion.
if your a socialist/communist, just say so. Why take it as an insult, if, that's what you believe?

there are two, very different paths, in general, as I see it.

Communist, and Capitalist. Both can work, both can fail. It all depends on the people running them, and, the people living them (because, both are not always the same).

Both want the same outcomes, but, find two ways of achieving them.

If one looks at history (which, is a good way to see how humans do things), which system has created the best living conditions, most prosperity, most innovation, and lasted the longest (as individual nations, and overall)?
and, you can't point at one small group of folks, living in some isolated place, and say "see, it works".
Compare them, apples to apples, as such.

Human nature, is, everyone wants what someone else has. We want, a piece of the other guys "pie".
it's just, how do we get it? Do we outsmart/out work/innovate/cheat him, or, do we use big government (or another bully) to take it and give it to us?


Survival of the fittest,if kept as a system, would have the population of earth way smaller, things cleaner, and, people doing better. IMHO.
Yup, many, many would have fallen by the wayside, slipped through the cracks, whatever.
I don't advocate that, in a pure sense, but, if you look at it objectively, that's where I think it is, and would be.

so, decide, how you're gonna "influence" natural selection/luckiest wins...........it's just a guessing game.
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

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