New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

[Elderberry]

But since you don't know when you'll get your ticket you might have the excitement of multiple lottery draws!

Well I don't understand how that would be possible. I thought you could only enter one.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it until we get all the details and then I'll decide I don't like it.

[theCryptofishist]

But since you don't know when you'll get your ticket you might have the excitement of multiple lottery draws!

Well I don't understand how that would be possible. I thought you could only enter one.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it until we get all the details and then I'll decide I don't like it.

I think you can only buy tickets from one, but you are in all until you win.

[Canoe]

Just keep in mind that we are all equal, but some of us are more equal than others.
George Orwell, Animal Farm

Like the quote from a long time volunteer that now everyone will be equal.
Don't they get their ticket for free, no line or lottery for return volunteers?

[oneeyeddick]

I would love to see that can of worms opened too, especially if it extended to DPW...

[essjay]

Like the quote from a long time volunteer that now everyone will be equal.
Don't they get their ticket for free, no line or lottery for return volunteers?

It depends on the department they are volunteering for, how many years they have volunteered, how much time volunteered in previous years and how much time will be volunteered on the playa during the current year. Of course, the lottery may change all of that . . .

[Canoe]

...I was so geared up for the ticket announcement (me being someone who plans way the hell in advance.) Instead of feeling excited and amped, I feel totally disappointed ...

I feel the same way.. Had couple of project in the works.. My heart quit them last night...

Same here.
Unless I know I can get a ticket, how can I invest my time, effort, money and heart into my projects while knowing it may all be in waste?

Surely it's got to be better than it appears.
Surely they've have thought out the impact on individuals and theme camps, the community at large...
Surely?

I can afford to set a limit and pay at the top tier, but this process forces me to be in the running for the lower tiers too. And, to maximize the chance that I can even get a ticket, I have to go into the running for lower tiers too.
May seem petty given the more grievous apparent consequences of this new process, but:
* (if I understand this right - not a given) you register and are in the lotteries starting from the lower tier lottery, moving up through the tier lotteries until: you win and get a ticket at that tier; or the tier lottery passes your price limit; or, if you set your limit at the max tier, the tickets are all gone.
* how about an option where: if you win a ticket in a lower tier lottery, you've won a ticket but you've opted to pay the price set by your limit, so you get and pay for a ticket from your Limit Tier and the lower tier ticket is available for someone else at that lower price. Allows those that can afford to and choose to, to leave the lower tier tickets for those who can't afford higher.

[Canoe]

...I for one don't want my name printed on a ticket and I want to be able to buy a ticket "for a friend" whose name I haven't decided at the time of purchase...

I wanted to buy a few extra for gifting. How would that work?

[Savannah]

It would appear from the wording that buying multiples is still possible:

Yhere [sic] will be a limited number of tickets per person

I think if you "win the lottery" your whole order (last year the limit was 4) goes through.

[theCryptofishist]

* (if I understand this right - not a given) you register and are in the lotteries starting from the lower tier lottery, moving up through the tier lotteries until: you win and get a ticket at that tier; or the tier lottery passes your price limit; or, if you set your limit at the max tier, the tickets are all gone.

I really think they'll have the high tier lotteries first, working their way down to lower ones. I could be wrong, but I think it works better that way.

[drewster]

As I understand of this new lottery system, everyone will have an incentive to choose all or most price tiers to successfully get a ticket, even if they are willing to pay more.

This voids the initial reason tiers are done... to help those who need it , pay less.

Why not charge the same, average, price for everyone?


I don't agree with this system......


Andrew

[mgb327]

...I was so geared up for the ticket announcement (me being someone who plans way the hell in advance.) Instead of feeling excited and amped, I feel totally disappointed ...

I feel the same way.. Had couple of project in the works.. My heart quit them last night...

Well said, I got the JRS and everything after the new Lotto draw news was useless. I used to read every word, look at every link with each new JRS issue. Why bother putting anything more in that issue page other than the Lotto deal. The rest of the BM news seems a moot point now. "my heart quit them last night" says it for me, I turned off the work-shop lights last night, probably won't do anything more in prep. now. They say there will be a lot of "winners", true, but there will be a lot of losers also. I am not a betting man. I have given up, as I don't believe in luck, I believe in hard work and preparation.

[lemur]

.. The rest of the BM news seems a moot point now. "my heart quit them last night" says it for me, I turned off the work-shop lights last night, probably won't do anything more in prep. now.

just because you cant be 100% for sure what will happen yer gonna pack it in?


shit.. if i was 100% sure my tent wouldnt blow away or rip to shreds leaving the well placed stakes in the ground burning man would surely be a lot less fun.

as it is, i prepare /as best i can/ for the conditions.. and hope that my plan works the best.


i dont see how this is any different, you can be well prepared and know all about how to make the right shit and do it right at burning man and still get fucked royally.. you cant be 100% sure about anything in life, really.


show those balls youve developed at the burn and treat this the same way.. youll be prepared and have a good chance of everything going right. but hell man, shit happens...

youre prepared for shit happening right?

[Canoe]

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but:
* With lower tiers selling out so soon last year, they got a larger wack of money sooner than previous years, no?
* If "everyone going" registers in the two week window for applying to buy a ticket through the lottery, then doesn't this mean that they get all their money for ticket sales as soon as they process the tier lotteries, instead of an influx of cash from early sales in January and then the rest coming in over the next seven months?
* How much interest would they earn stashing our ticket money away for all those months?

Is there another reason for an everyone-must-apply-now-window for ticket purchases?

[lemur]

2 week window before each round

[Canoe]

...
i dont see how this is any different, you can be well prepared and know all about how to make the right shit and do it right at burning man and still get fucked royally.. you cant be 100% sure about anything in life, really...

This is materially different in that we used to be able to buy-a-ticket, know you have a ticket, and know that it is either being delivered to you or you have arranged to pick it up at will call, and - that you can rely upon having done that.
And at this point in the prep for the following year, you used to be able to rely upon knowing that you will be able to successfully do that (providing you don't delay month, after month, after month, etc. and miss out - which is another choice).

A very material difference.

[Canoe]

2 week window before each round

Then you'd have to go for each round, as you can not rely upon being successful in a later round.
They'll be processing multiple applications for most individuals who attend.
So, at 10,000 tickets per tier, to keep it simple:
60,000 people going for 10,000 tickets,
50,000 people going for 10,000 tickets,
40,000 people going for 10,000 tickets,
30,000 people going for 20,000 tickets.
Total: 180,000 applications for 50,000 tickets.
Yup.
That's less work.
Doesn't make sense. I thought I read where you apply and indicate the maximum price tier you're applying for, and then you're in all lotteries for the lower tiers, up to and including the maximum you indicated?
Even then, you're processing 60,000 applications multiple times, for 180,000 lottery transactions.
WTF

[lemur]

A very material difference.

i didnt say it wasnt factually different.


its the same shit: be prepared, shit goes wrong sometimes.. all you can do is prepare bast you can.


as we saw last year just being there with money in hand didnt guarantee everyone a ticket..

[lemur]

Then you'd have to go for each round, as you can not rely upon being successful in a later round.

unless there more people who apply for tickets than there are tickets total to burning man 2012 everyone who applies for the first round will receive a ticket. (edit: unless they only put down the 1st tier as what they are willing to buy..)

seeing as it took many months for burning man to sell out last year, and never sold out in the past.. (but probably should have) i dont see any reason to believe it will sell out in that 2 week window before the first lottery.


tl;dr
its safe to assume that the amount of people going for lottery #1 will be less than the total amount of tickets being sold to burning man 2012. this means everyone in round #1 will receive a ticket. ..just not the cheap one they hoped for.

nobody will be left over from any of the rounds without a ticket so long as there are tickets to meet that demand.

odds are the first 2-3 rounds will not outstrip the supply of tickets.


dont worry.

[MrMullen]

You people think you're melting down about this, Hitler is super pissed about it!

Hitler finds out about Burning Man's ticket Lottery!
http://youtu.be/lhsePT97aIs

[junglesmacks]

I think the main part of the confusion here is people hearing the word "lottery" and instantly shutting their brain off and thinking thar there will only be one, giant lottery pull.. and that you won't even know until July. It continues to amaze me how panicked and towel throwing people are being. I mean seriously.. you have literally just as much chance of getting a ticket as you did last year. Just as much. In other words, if dont wait until the last minute like you shouldn't be anyway then you will get a ticket. The only uncertainty is what tier.

Why is this concept so difficult to understand? I'm not getting it. We can build things, we can create elaborate works of art and survive in the desert for a week.. but we can't read and understand something correctly? We need 53 different personal venting threads all saying the same thing?

FWIW though, I'm almost betting that the final outcome will not be as originally proposed. Someone, somewhere is reading through this and doing some serious re-thinking.

We can hope, right?

[Simon of the Playa]

You people think you're melting down about this, Hitler is super pissed about it!

Hitler finds out about Burning Man's ticket Lottery!
http://youtu.be/lhsePT97aIs

there had BETTER be enough molly...

i'm not going topless the whole damn week.

[Sola Gangsta]

I think if they did the more expensive tiers first that would make the most sense. Or if you are simply considered for any tier up to either your price limit or when tickets run out.

They need to make sure that people have enough time to plan ahead so that they can either get time off from work or set up some of the more complicated camps because if the event suffers due to lack of planning, that is bad PR and could damage the future of the event. There are however camps who have their same setup from year to year and have been prepared for years and I suspect they would be minimally affected.

I also think that it makes sense to put long time burners who have contributed much to the event first and spectators last.

[lemur]

I also think that it makes sense to put long time burners who have contributed much to the event first and spectators last.

this type of crap is very unburning man if you ask me.


who gets to decide who is a true burner? how do we measure contributions..

how do we measure entitledness?

[Sola Gangsta]

You people think you're melting down about this, Hitler is super pissed about it!

Hitler finds out about Burning Man's ticket Lottery!
http://youtu.be/lhsePT97aIs

ROFL!!!

[Misti]

This new ticket sales idea worries me. We need the lower priced tickets because of our income, to the people that ask if you are poor how do you go to BM, we can afford to take one week long "vacation" a year, this is usually a trip from salt lake city to moab utah, we were able to go in 08 to burning man and were planning on going again 2012, we skipped out on last years moab trip to make it to BM 2012.

We also invited family to go 2012, our brothers and parents, and possibly my grandparents, this would be 10-12 people that were planning on going with us. This was not going to be a problem when we could wait in line and buy them when they go on sale. What happens if my mom and my boyfriends younger brother wins tickets, they don't really know each other and wouldn't be able to carpool, or if just my grandparents win tickets? they are old enough that they shouldn't be there unsupervised. They are counting on us to guide them (like what we wished we had) on their first trip home. I can't afford to have people buy up a bunch of tickets to sell to those that don't win.

We are also concerned with the idea of having that much money in limbo waiting for when they decide to pull the lotto winners and charge us. If they have this much trouble selling tickets on their system how are they going to keep xnumber of credit card numbers securely, and what happens if your ticket never comes? Will it be too late to contest the charge?

[lemur]

We need the lower priced tickets because of our income,

buy low income or scholarship tickets and avoid the tiered system if you truly have the need.

[gyre]

Quantum mechanics.

http://www.hep.phys.soton.ac.uk/~evans/QL/index.htm
http://www.hep.phys.soton.ac.uk/~evans/QL/archive.htm

http://plus.maths.org/content/os/latest ... tery/index

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27446

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmi ... m-lottery/


You may have already won.
Really.

[trilobyte]

@Canoe - tickets for gifting would still be possible. There will be a limit of number of tickets a person can purchase, but details have not yet been announced. Regarding your questions about the influx of early cash from sales last year vs. this year's staged lottery program - I don't think any of this is about maximizing profits or interest income. Regarding your guesstimates about how many will enter each lottery round, I think your numbers are way off. The bulk of participants do not purchase their tickets as soon as they go on sale (forget the planning ahead bit, a lot of people just can't afford it). I don't expect that to change dramatically.

@mgb327 - it may not seem important, but do not confuse the word 'Lotto' with the ticket lottery system. In the case of a lotto game, millions more participants vying for one big winner (or a small pool of tickets with an appreciable prize). That's not the case here. There will likely be something in the neighborhood of 55,000 'wins' (opportunity to purchase a ticket at whatever price, though my number is pure speculation), and (guessing based on historic patterns) 60,000 to 65,000 participants vying for those wins.

@lemur - you make a very good point. It's unfortunate that in the face of an uncertain outcome or an unknown situation, a lot of folks seem to be gravitating to the worst case scenario outcomes (it'll ruin Burning Man, it throws camps/projects in jeopardy, etc). Fear sucks, it's a terrible feeling and I hope that people are able to shake themselves free of it as additional information becomes available. My own experiences have either taught or conditioned me to think positively. I believe that this will work out for the vast majority of people who would like to participate in next year's event, and may even favor those who plan. I'm not sure if Bay Bridge Sue is the person who originally said it, but for a while her signature read "those who plan…burn" - it's a great line, and one that I suspect will remain true for the 2012 event.

@junglesmacks - very well said on the first couple bits. I'm hopeful that before considering any kind of changes or backpedaling based on uninformed public outcry, we'll get the chance to be informed first. A lot of the negative reaction and public outcry is driven by fear, uncertainty, and doubt - I'd like to be able to help get that dispelled as soon as possible.

@Mysti - Under the old system, you didn't have that great a chance of being able to get the lower tiered tickets. Lowest tiers were a limit of 2 per person, and for the last several years it's been a bit of a crap shoot on whether you got through and were able to buy at the bottom tier. With this past year's server meltdown, a good number of the people who were early in the queue on day one still managed to miss out one the lowest tier. 10-12 tickets would like have translated to at least half of them being purchased at a higher tier. As for the details on ticket lottery drawings, money to be set aside while waiting for the drawing, and the issue of people in your group not being able to get tickets, I suspect that when the details are posted (hopefully soon) it will clear a lot of that up. And as lemur said, for those members of your group who are truly in need, keep your eyes open for information on low-income tickets. According to the same announcement, there will be more low-income tickets in 2012 than in years past.

[Sola Gangsta]

We are also concerned with the idea of having that much money in limbo waiting for when they decide to pull the lotto winners and charge us. If they have this much trouble selling tickets on their system how are they going to keep xnumber of credit card numbers securely, and what happens if your ticket never comes? Will it be too late to contest the charge?

As a business owner who processes credit cards on the internet I can answer this question. It is illegal for merchants to store certain elements of credit card information outside of the security of the server according to Visa and MasterCard regulations. See below on card handling best practices:

https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Handlin ... _Practices

Also they have to process the order within the amount of time specified by the grace period of the card or they run the risk of violation (this may vary between institutions but it doesn't apply in my case because orders are processed instantaneously). Violation of the agreement between the merchant and the bank can result in revocation of merchant status and closing of the account and possible other charges...

You might want to ask for a copy of the merchant agreement they have with their card processor, but they are pretty much the same insofar as they have to follow federal regulations.

[The Rod]

Yep, here's another one. Yet another "WTF!?" posting.

I know there are too many to read at this point, and I have nothing to say that hasn't been said hundreds of times in the last couple days, but I still feel compelled to say it. Hopefully someone, somewhere is noticing the outrage that has ensued and we need as many voices as we can get:

What the fuck? Seriously, What The Fucking Fuck? This has the potential to cause some considerable damage to the culture and population of BRC. The population of Black Rock City being me and [b]you[/b]. We are what makes this fucking thing happen. We, as the tax-paying, rule abiding citizens of our city ARE ENTITLED (whoa) to fair, considerate treatment by the governing body of this city, which happens to be a non-elected, privately owned for-profit corporation. PROFIT. Our participation has afforded those in charge some pretty nice salaries. Those in charge will make decisions that will affect tens of thousands of individuals, and like we are seeing in other aspects of our society, people are becoming more and more frustrated with the decisions that are being made by "Those in Charge", as they seem to be more and more out of line with the types of decisions most would like to see made.

Hopefully increasing numbers of humans screaming "What the fuck?" at the humans making these piss-poor decisions will result in the piss-poor decision makers learning to make better decisions. Or maybe we need new decision makers... Maybe this is the point where the old, out dated systems will fall apart and we'll have a chance to reconstruct it the way we want it, and make the decisions we want to make. Burning Man is corrupt, sold out and disconnected from it's citizens and participants. Time for a new one?