New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

[lemur]

Hey Lemur! Isn't this the stupid animal that runs over the cliff to his death.

I think you mean lemmings..

lemmings are rodents.

lemurs are primates.

[CapnJoe45]

Sorry Lemur! It's Lemmings that go over the cliffs. Got a little carried away there! Like a lot of people concerned with the events transpiring!

[aranea]

You people think you're melting down about this, Hitler is super pissed about it!

Hitler finds out about Burning Man's ticket Lottery!
http://youtu.be/lhsePT97aIs

You knew it had to happen sometime.

[gyre]

Normally I go on line and purchase two tickets for my wife and I. Now, as insurance, I'm going to ask x amount of friends to join the lottery as well, knowing that I can always sell any additional tickets that were won using this approach.

Just like the scalpers?

He doesn't really have much of a choice now does he? He did say he planned to resell (no where did he say for profit) so any extra tickets he got (if at all) would be going to burners who want them. So unless he plans to profit, which it sounds like he doesn't, he's leaps and bounds better than the scalpers.

He wants to rig the game for his benefit.

[FIGJAM]

First day of ticket sales in 2011 and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the people cried "This suck's, take this burden from us!"

And the Gods said "We hear you."

Then the tickets sold out and a darkness decended and the people cried "This suck's, take this burden from us!"

And the Gods said "We hear you."

So the Gods proclaimed "We heard you and lo there will hencforth be a lottery!"

And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth and the people cried "THIS SUCK'S, TAKE THIS BURDEN FROM US!!!!!!"

Such is the nature of Gods and men.

[lemur]

i will post this again

[Nerdling]

He wants to rig the game for his benefit.

Fair point, but he isn't doing so maliciously is what I'm trying to get across.

[OaklandPurple]

This is somewhat off topic, but why do so many people always talk about what tier they are getting? isnt it only a difference of like what $80-100? My concern would be just getting a ticket IN THE FIRST PLACE.

but yes, the lottery can suck it.

[gyre]

He wants to rig the game for his benefit.

Fair point, but he isn't doing so maliciously is what I'm trying to get across.

It is dishonest.

[Sail Man]

First day of ticket sales in 2011 and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the people cried "This suck's, take this burden from us!"

And the Gods said "We hear you."

Then the tickets sold out and a darkness decended and the people cried "This suck's, take this burden from us!"

And the Gods said "We hear you."

So the Gods proclaimed "We heard you and lo there will hencforth be a lottery!"

And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth and the people cried "THIS SUCK'S, TAKE THIS BURDEN FROM US!!!!!!"

Such is the nature of Gods and men.

Well, apparently my burden for next year will be remodeling the kitchen instead of heading out west.

[maxrenn]

He wants to rig the game for his benefit.

Fair point, but he isn't doing so maliciously is what I'm trying to get across.

It is dishonest.

The point is that the new system opens up the possibility of people getting friends to enter the lottery.

Either way whether he is personally going to act dishonestly or not is a moot point as if the system is flawed, clearly some people will act in such a way even if it is not him.

Pointing fingers at people on this thread is crazy. We know for a fact that if the system is badly designed, there will people who will abuse it. Accept that fact. What is needed is the system with least amount of possible loopholes for dishonest people to abuse.

"If you leave your gate open you cant criticise the trespasser. You must close the gate"

[maxrenn]

Now, as insurance, I'm going to ask x amount of friends to join the lottery as well, knowing that I can always sell any additional tickets that were won using this approach.

You're just as good as the scalpers. This totally voids the lottery system. Good job on wrecking the new system before it even starts.

I disagree. It is the jobs of the honest people to brainstorm and think of the loopholes that the dishonest will use. Otherwise it will end up with just dishonest people at the burn and we dont want that!

[Elderberry]

Shpilkus - then you should take it apon yourself to make your campmates aware, and kick there ass into gear.

cpart - i live in canada, i got a tier 1 ticket last year ( i was #26 in line woohoo ) which is what, 260 or 280 right … now … after rthe currency conversion, importing it to canada, it was just over 350. for the cheapest ticket…. i used to get the pre-sale and that was over 400 after everything was said and done.

10538 - i like the second idea. start the lottery at the highest price range and work your way down to the lowest. makes the most sense.

Jewel Man- and anyone else who thinks a occupy black rock is a good idea. This would destroy the event. Black Rock City is not a city that runs on casinos, mcdonalds, starbucks, etc. to run. it runs SPECIFICLY on the will of the people attending, the will of the BMORG, and the will of the people willing to go out, weeks before and after the event to setup, tear down, clean up, and make the playa natural again. Thereis a lot of insurance involved, there are a lot of government stipulations BMORG has to meet to be able to create black rock year after year. If you were to go and set up a random occupy encampment in front of the bmorg camp, or say inside center camp, or near the BMIR station , or where ever that isn't a designated camping area, it could possibly violate how BMORG gets PERMISSION to create this city we all love.
Personally, if any one does create a occupy movement and sets up camp where they shouldn't, i would hope the bunnys, the santas, the nuns, the dust storms, dpw, and myself, would come and destroy ur camp and make you go to where you are suppose to camp.

And to anyone that has ever been to an OWS event--it looks exactly like Burning Man--without the sparkle. And I certainly don't think anyone has SERIOUSLY suggested occupying burning man--as in a political way. (At least I hope not! )

[macstarr]

Im a very rare- public form- response kind of person, but this new ticket system has compelled me to add my voice. I would like to express my dissatisfaction and concern about the new ticket system. I know that a proper ticketing system is essential, but a lottery leaves way too much up to chance. I have a very small group of friends I go with and the possibility of them not making it is so high and probable with this new ticket system, that I really now am doubting we will all make it. I am so disappointed at the decision to change the system that was in place. Yes, it wasn't perfect, but a lottery is not an improvement at all. It saddens me because I feel that the odds of all my friends making it now will not be due to them getting their stuff together- but to fate or luck. Radical Inclusion is one of the BRC communities main principals yet this new system is a guaranteed EXclusion. Please listen to the voice of your community and reconsider a new system and not adopt this lottery format.

[bradtem]

For a couple, I suspect a common trick would be to have both members of the couple as for 2 tickets each. If you win both, you would put 2 into the resale market. Likewise for camps. I don't know what the maximum per person will be -- let's imagine two -- but camps will just have some number of members enter for 2 each, to be "sure" they will get enough and put the rest into the resale market.

Of course, what does it take to be sure? What nobody knows is how much the ticket demand will balloon because of people applying this strategy, in addition to the scalpers who will also be doing this. We never saw the numbers, but last year let's imagine there were 55,000 people looking for 50,000 tickets. That's not an unreasonable guess based on past moderate growth trends. If this year we had 60,000 people looking for 50,000 tickets, the theory is that 5/6 of entrants would win the lottery, and so it would not take too many extra entrants to guarantee enough. In fact, based on the usual amount of time people take to commit to going, the reality would probably be that everybody in the first rounds would get just what they asked for, and if they asked for extra they would get extra. The lottery would (normally) only apply in later rounds of ticket selling.

However, this year everybody knows there is a risk of sell-out and everybody knows there is a risk of losing the lottery and so people will try to buy much earlier, and people will try to buy extra. Alas, nobody knows that the right strategy is, so people will overcompensate, and that creates another chaotic cycle making it even harder to guess the right strategy. It's quite possible that all tickets go quickly to those who bought as many as possible, and then all the extra tickets go into the resale market. Some are sold at face value, some are sold at market value.

Game theorists and economists study problems like this a lot. They are not easy problems. The normal solution to a scarcity is markets. Scalpers provide a market when the original vendor of tickets is not willing to provide one, and scalpers capture all that extra money, which is sad. Selling at face value sometimes is a great favour to other burners, but sometimes it just means selling to a scalper at face value who laughs at the seller.

Another common solution to this in markets is a uniform price auction (sometimes incorrectly called a Dutch Auction.) In a uniform price auction, if you have 20 items and 40 bidders, everybody does one sealed bid, and you take the 20th highest bid, and that's the price the 20 winners pay. (Sometimes there is a minimum in case the auction does not sell out.) That's generally viewed as one of the optimum strategies for sales like these, but it doesn't apply here for several reasons:

1. Burners are not ready to all buy their tickets on the same day
2. This method is best, but only with experienced bidders. Inexperienced bidders often screw themselves until they understand this class of auction, even though, since it is used by eBay it is the most common kind of auction in the world.
3. Burning Man likes the idea of tiers, so the most eager burners who need a price break can get one
4. Perhaps most of all, Burning Man does not want to promote an auction to capture all the value, since it generates the idea that tickets are for the rich.

It is these forces, notably #4, which pushed the borg into a lottery approach. Lotteries are often what you do when it turns out you can't use markets. Another common approach (first come first served) is what they used to do and have decided not to do again.

Non-transferable tickets can be done without having to show ID with a bit of technology. Well, more than a bit, which is the problem, it requires a whole new system including phones/tablets for gate staff checking tickets. In such a system, you can't sell a ticket but you can return it for a refund as long as there are people on the waiting list, so scalping is not possible. You can have additional tickets that let you bring in friends as long as they enter with you. (ie. you have 4 tickets in your name, and you are confirmed but the other 3 are for any 3 people who come in with you.) In that case you can buy an extra ticket, and give/sell it to a person who comes in with you, but you can't give it to somebody else, the most you can do if a friend bails is return the ticket for refund, and somebody else who got on the waiting list early gets it. A very different dynamic from what most people know, but with a certain fairness about it. Some would hate the idea that they can't just get 3 tickets and then sell one to a buddy as the event approaches, while others would like that you can't hoard up the tickets when you don't know who they are for, preventing others from getting theirs.

[lemur]

all hail the master.

we are safe now..

[Kykyri]

I too feel compelled to put in my 2 cents worth.......Who was the brilliant mind that came up with this chaos inducing idea? A lottery is a BAD idea. I can see that it is fraught with problems. I guess the powers that be at Burning Man are bent on teaching the reliable, organized, and engaged participants a lesson. I also see BM trending towards the elimination of the ticket pricing tier system with this lottery system. Is there anyway to reverse this worrisome decision? Is anyone circulating a petition?

[gyre]

The point is that the new system opens up the possibility of people getting friends to enter the lottery.

People did this with the old system too, primarily to get lower prices.

The new system is very little different from the old one.

The only real difference is starting sales at multiple times.

i have suggested non-transferrable tickets.

[lemur]

Is anyone circulating a petition?

i hope not...

[Simon of the Playa]

everything sucks now.

my electrolytes and my chi are at war with my aura over this...It's past Vehklempt, and into Weltschmerz.

Thanks Larry for making my life fucking MISERABLE...

i hope you and your cabal of greedy elitist, probably Jewish BOuRGIES are happy, you have turned my sparkly outlook for the future into a shitty, dusty brown.

i'm going to go dig up my old Smith's Cassettes, and eat ice cream.

[capjbadger]

You people need to chill for a few days till the next JRS comes out with the DETAILS on how the process will work.

-Badger

But Badger, that would ruin a perfectly good freak-out. Think of it as a Thursday meltdown on-playa and it becomes much easier to deal with. Also, just glance over the posts. Reading them hurts.

Ah right. Silly me for talking sense to the cattle.

-Badger

[theCryptofishist]

‎This doesn't quite strike me as the spirit of Burningman.

I am beginning to see it as a return to its Cacophony roots.
Huzzah!

[maxrenn]

People did this with the old system too, primarily to get lower prices.

The new system is very little different from the old one.

The only real difference is starting sales at multiple times.

i have suggested non-transferrable tickets.

I understand that, and that is a good point. My point is about the futility of calling people out on this forum for dishonest tactics with the new system when in fact we have to accept that people will of course be seeking loopholes. Its burning mans job to plug these holes as best they can.

[Jewel Man]

Shpilkus - then you should take it apon yourself to make your campmates aware, and kick there ass into gear.

cpart - i live in canada, i got a tier 1 ticket last year ( i was #26 in line woohoo ) which is what, 260 or 280 right … now … after rthe currency conversion, importing it to canada, it was just over 350. for the cheapest ticket…. i used to get the pre-sale and that was over 400 after everything was said and done.

10538 - i like the second idea. start the lottery at the highest price range and work your way down to the lowest. makes the most sense.

Jewel Man- and anyone else who thinks a occupy black rock is a good idea. This would destroy the event. Black Rock City is not a city that runs on casinos, mcdonalds, starbucks, etc. to run. it runs SPECIFICLY on the will of the people attending, the will of the BMORG, and the will of the people willing to go out, weeks before and after the event to setup, tear down, clean up, and make the playa natural again. Thereis a lot of insurance involved, there are a lot of government stipulations BMORG has to meet to be able to create black rock year after year. If you were to go and set up a random occupy encampment in front of the bmorg camp, or say inside center camp, or near the BMIR station , or where ever that isn't a designated camping area, it could possibly violate how BMORG gets PERMISSION to create this city we all love.
Personally, if any one does create a occupy movement and sets up camp where they shouldn't, i would hope the bunnys, the santas, the nuns, the dust storms, dpw, and myself, would come and destroy ur camp and make you go to where you are suppose to camp.

And to anyone that has ever been to an OWS event--it looks exactly like Burning Man--without the sparkle. And I certainly don't think anyone has SERIOUSLY suggested occupying burning man--as in a political way. (At least I hope not! )

I am totally serious about the Occupy Black Rock City Movement and fighting the Establishment especially when the Establishment won't listen to the people they govern. 99% of the posts in this discussion group are against the Lotto and the ideas the Lotto represents. The Lotto says to hell with hard working people, we are going to make the odds of a person getting a ticket equal for a guy who plans and builds for 9 months equal to the tourist who decides a week before the event that they want a ticket because they learned that their favorite DJ is playing. Keep an eye out on Facebook for more details on the Occupy Black Rock City Movement!

[Presto]

A lot of posts have predicted bad side effects (more tickets in the hands of scalpers, people "hoarding" tickets, etc) and from what I understand of the JRS proposal I think the criticisms are correct. But rather than complaining before we fully understand the rules I thought I'd take a shot at proposing some radically different ideas that might work, and don't even need to replace the current proposal.

Assuming there are 5 tiers, $ (cheapest), $$, $$$ (average price across all tickets), $$$$, $$$$$ (most expensive.)

* Offer to fund art grants with tickets instead of cash. That is, for the trusted artists that receive a grant, they can choose receive an equivalent number of tickets at $$ price. These can be used as Kickstarter incentives, fundraiser prizes, etc. as they wish. Yes, they'll be "scalping" them, but at least this scalping creates more art on the playa.

* RFP a group of burners willing to operate a non-transferable ticket service. Something like an alternate location in Gerlach/at the gate where you can present ID and receive a real ticket on your way in (so it doesn't impact traditional gate operations.) Vet them with the traditional "art grant" process to ensure they can actually fulfill their promise. Using the same idea above, grant them a block of tickets, sale price is "regulated" but allow them to include cost of service in the ticket price.

* Give blocks tickets to organizers of any regional that has been running @ > 200 people for > 2 years. Let them sell them to locals in whatever method they'd like (trust but verify that it's being done fairly.)

* Give "BORG2" (or whoever is championing the old school these days) a block of tickets to sell however they'd like.

* Do pre-sales for 1 week at $$$$$, then 1 week at $$$$, then start into whatever normal sales method is decided. Goal is to let the people who have money jump for the "sure bet" tickets before the low-income folks rush to get the cheapest tier. (If I understand JRS, they're going to do something like this)

or some really random ideas. Yes, I realize these are probably too complicated
* Set up a "daily deals site" that sells a limited number of tickets every day. Vary the price randomly over time so that you never know if there might be a cheaper ticket available the next month. (Why? 1) eliminate the day 1 overlap of "I need cheap tickets" and "I know for sure I'm going and want to get my ticket ASAP"; 2) delay / reduce scalping customer base since they MIGHT be able to get a face-value ticket throughout the summer)

* Operate a burner version of "stubhub" specifically for people who want to sell their tickets at face value. Act as a trusted intermediary/escrow for people with good intentions to reduce the demand on standard marked-up ticket sites - basically just a verification service that the ticket exists & was sold at that price. Transfer tickets safely by having the seller mail the physical ticket to this site [which can then be resold by Org]; the site sends the buyer a "coupon code" that lets them purchase a ticket for free from the normal tickets website. (It's difficult to do right, this because you can't tell the intentions of buyers, who might be scalpers.)

Anyway, just throwing out some ideas during the discussion period. Hopefully the spirit shows through any design flaws. If we're going to beat scalpers, we can't expect the org to do it, we have to let the creative burner community try out their best ideas. Backed by the validation/verification of the Org, reward groups who are trusted to have the right burner spirit with the opportunity to fix the system and incent good behaviors. (And if those folks abuse the system, then there's no hope for fixing it.)

Go radical self-reliance!

[capjbadger]

@trilobyte...My god man, how do you keep all that shit straight?
ps...i know for a fact that someone who is sleeping with larry's cat surmised through tea leaves that this is all a big ploy to increase eplaya readership...

First 10,000 to post on eplaya are automatically declared winners in the lottery.
** Just for shit's and giggle's. I think I'll go post that on Facebook.

+1000

-Badger

[Elderberry]

I am totally serious about the Occupy Black Rock City Movement and fighting the Establishment especially when the Establishment won't listen to the people they govern. 99% of the posts in this discussion group are against the Lotto and the ideas the Lotto represents. The Lotto says to hell with hard working people, we are going to make the odds of a person getting a ticket equal for a guy who plans and builds for 9 months equal to the tourist who decides a week before the event that they want a ticket because they learned that their favorite DJ is playing. Keep an eye out on Facebook for more details on the Occupy Black Rock City Movement!

OK This has to be at the very top of my list of the most stupid thing anyone has ever posted in the forum.
First of all, BM is a private event. They can do anything they want. You either take it or leave it. That would also include evicting you and your whole party of Occupiers forcibly with LEO's. You are giving OWS a bad name and possibly a black eye.

[Simon of the Playa]

Keep an eye out on Facebook for more details on the Occupy Black Rock City Movement!

i think i just shit myself.

[Elderberry]

Way too complicated. Listen, ticket sales is not some new phenomenon. Promoters have been selling event tickets for a long time, at numbers far larger, with much greater demand, than burning man. Why should anyone want to try and reinvent the wheel here? Just hire a ticket service that has the ability to do the job right.

End of story. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

A lot of posts have predicted bad side effects (more tickets in the hands of scalpers, people "hoarding" tickets, etc) and from what I understand of the JRS proposal I think the criticisms are correct. But rather than complaining before we fully understand the rules I thought I'd take a shot at proposing some radically different ideas that might work, and don't even need to replace the current proposal.

Assuming there are 5 tiers, $ (cheapest), $$, $$$ (average price across all tickets), $$$$, $$$$$ (most expensive.)

* Offer to fund art grants with tickets instead of cash. That is, for the trusted artists that receive a grant, they can choose receive an equivalent number of tickets at $$ price. These can be used as Kickstarter incentives, fundraiser prizes, etc. as they wish. Yes, they'll be "scalping" them, but at least this scalping creates more art on the playa.

* RFP a group of burners willing to operate a non-transferable ticket service. Something like an alternate location in Gerlach/at the gate where you can present ID and receive a real ticket on your way in (so it doesn't impact traditional gate operations.) Vet them with the traditional "art grant" process to ensure they can actually fulfill their promise. Using the same idea above, grant them a block of tickets, sale price is "regulated" but allow them to include cost of service in the ticket price.

* Give blocks tickets to organizers of any regional that has been running @ > 200 people for > 2 years. Let them sell them to locals in whatever method they'd like (trust but verify that it's being done fairly.)

* Give "BORG2" (or whoever is championing the old school these days) a block of tickets to sell however they'd like.

* Do pre-sales for 1 week at $$$$$, then 1 week at $$$$, then start into whatever normal sales method is decided. Goal is to let the people who have money jump for the "sure bet" tickets before the low-income folks rush to get the cheapest tier. (If I understand JRS, they're going to do something like this)

or some really random ideas. Yes, I realize these are probably too complicated
* Set up a "daily deals site" that sells a limited number of tickets every day. Vary the price randomly over time so that you never know if there might be a cheaper ticket available the next month. (Why? 1) eliminate the day 1 overlap of "I need cheap tickets" and "I know for sure I'm going and want to get my ticket ASAP"; 2) delay / reduce scalping customer base since they MIGHT be able to get a face-value ticket throughout the summer)

* Operate a burner version of "stubhub" specifically for people who want to sell their tickets at face value. Act as a trusted intermediary/escrow for people with good intentions to reduce the demand on standard marked-up ticket sites - basically just a verification service that the ticket exists & was sold at that price. (It's difficult to do right, this because you can't tell the intentions of buyers, who might be scalpers.)

Anyway, just throwing out some ideas during the discussion period. Hopefully the spirit shows through any design flaws. If we're going to beat scalpers, we can't expect the org to do it, we have to let the creative burner community try out their best ideas. Backed by the validation/verification of the Org, reward groups who are trusted to have the right burner spirit with the opportunity to fix the system and incent good behaviors. (And if those folks abuse the system, then there's no hope for fixing it.)

Go radical self-reliance!

[Elderberry]

Keep an eye out on Facebook for more details on the Occupy Black Rock City Movement!

i think i just shit myself.

LOL