New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:33 pm

LostinReno wrote:stupid repetetive double post! Kind of like most of the posts in this thread.

It is what it is, there's not much you can do about it (lottery).

So what exactly would a Jewish Indian Taco consist of? I'll have to say I'm intrigued

Me too. Can you boil the meat of a baby buffalo in the milk of its mother?

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:34 pm

MrMullen wrote:The thing about running the lottery in mid summer is a unworkable idea and no way they will/can do it. The lottery has to moved to the day after the ticket window closes in mid-February.

The one thing I want to know is: How does this solve the problem with ticket scalpers anyways?

The old system, the scalpers had to get as many people in line as they could right when the tickets went on sale. For example, if they wanted a 100 tickets, they had to get 50 ticket buyers at 50 computers right when the tickets went on sale. If they wanted a 1000 tickets, they have to get 500 people in the queue right when tickets went on sale. Each ticket buyer also had to wait in line for 0 - 6 hours to buy a ticket, which increased their costs because ticket buyers don't sit in the queue for free. Yes, they could buy higher tier tickets since once the event sells out, they can sell the tickets for $500 apiece.

The new system, the scalpers have 2 weeks to get as many people together to put in for lower priced tickets. This will require very little time of the ticket buyer since there is not going to be a queuing mechanism and thus no rush to buy a ticket. That means the ticket scalper can over a period of 2 weeks, get as many people as they can to put in for cheaper tickets. I would assume, that would be many more people than the old style of selling tickets. And scalpers can still get the more expensive tickets and resale them at $500 once the event sells out.

Through all of this, the main problem that is trying to be avoided, is not avoided. Theoretically, it even makes it worse.

May this is the way BORG is killing the event. I will not buy a ticket from a scalper on principle.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:36 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
LostinReno wrote:stupid repetetive double post! Kind of like most of the posts in this thread.

It is what it is, there's not much you can do about it (lottery).

So what exactly would a Jewish Indian Taco consist of? I'll have to say I'm intrigued
Me too. Can you boil the meat of a baby buffalo in the milk of its mother?

yes, and the meat is pinker than Halcyon's hair.***

***until he shaved it off..

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:40 pm

isThisRealLife wrote:A PROPOSED SOLUTION TO TICKETING FROM A HUMBLE BURNER

(Letter from BMORG)
Hello _____,
We'd like to thank you for being a continued burner over the years, and as a 2011 participant who has attended x times, you'll be given an exclusive window early in the year to directly purchase your 2012 tickets. Instead of a stupid lottery that would put you up against scalpers and newbs, we honor your tenure and welcome you to take advantage of this chance to buy early with no server load or long wait issues. Your access code to our ticketing system is F23BK4N and will allow you to purchase between Jan 1 - Feb 15. It will work beyond that time, but that window is reserved exclusively for the your invitation group.

Also, each ticket purchased will require the Burner's name to be logged at the time of purchase. Tickets will be non-transferable - this will completely prevent scalpers from hoarding and driving up ticket prices. If your plans change and you need a refund of your ticket, this can be done by contacting our Ticket Refund department at (415) 555-5555 and must be completed by July 15, 2012. NOTE: A $35 fee will be applied to sell your ticket back to us - this is to cover the cost of administrative work. Your ticket may not be transferred to another person through this process, they must purchase their own.

You may purchase up to 4 tickets with your access code, although keep in mind that you must have all 4 names of the Burners that you're buying for.

Again, we thank you for being a part of the community, and we acknowledge that we'd be nothing without people like you.
(End of letter)

If BMORG were smart, they'd already have a sorted list of emails & names that indicate how many years each burner has gone, and who's been most recently. Chop this list into pieces to create windows of ticket sales that will spread out the surge of traffic (instead of a lottery) and reward the most dedicated burners with the early windows. Send each Group an email 4 weeks in advance that their exclusive window is approaching, and remind them a day before as well. No excuses not to get your tickets comfortably with this approach.

While there may be SOME administrative work created from those who cancel and have to get a ticket refund, the fees would cover the cost of additional staff and the non-transferable approach would kill scalpers instantly.

The lottery might cover most of the community, but there will undoubtedly be a large group of irate burners who had to sit 2012 out because of bad luck. This will cause people to err on scaling down their installations, plans, camps, etc. because no one wants to risk splitting the money and effort of a 40 person camp plan by say, 25 people.

The only headache this approach would create is that tickets would have to be presented alongside an ID. So, reach down into your pocket and pull your ID out at the gate, and everything else will be the same as usual.

No more scalpers, no more server load, no more long-time burners getting the shaft.

Bump this if you agree, and let's get an alternative community SOLUTION to this ass backward lottery proposal. It's easy to vent our frustrations, but BMORG might actually listen if we give them a solid solution that lets everyone win.

BUMP

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:42 pm

StormInADDCup wrote:I'm just going to scalp. it's there for the taking really isn't it? Thanks BM!

I have considered this also, but it goes against my grain. Maybe I'll have my husband do it?

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:56 pm

junglesmacks wrote:Hey.. uhhh.. Sue? I've got a secret to tell you. Shhhh..
Come here.
No.. closer.
Little closer.
Are you listening?
Those that plan... burn. I will see you in the dust.

Yeah. Only it's looking like the plan is:

bradtem wrote:Well, strictly speaking the lottery will still reward those who have their shit together, in that it will reward those who take appropriate steps to game the lottery and assure they have enough tickets for their group, and then sell the remaining tickets in the aftermarket either at face value or at profit. The luck will only apply to people less organized about buying tickets; some of them will get tickets and some will not, based on luck. Others will get tickets based on wealth, via the auction aftermarket, or based on luck, via the face-value aftermarket.

SuperBugo_0 wrote:Am I not mistaken when I'm saying that Principle number ONE of the Ten Principles of Burning Man state;
"Radical Inclusion
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community."
this 'lottery" system doesn't sound like this Burning Man to me...

It sure has that look and feel, doesn't it.

Mojojita · Post by **Mojojita** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:03 pm

It will be interesting to see how this plan will work with the volunteers of different departments - lots of us, even at least one department head, prefer to buy our tickets instead of taking the "staff" freebie (there really are a few good reasons for this). Imagine trying to build/manage a volunteer schedule if a percentage of your volunteers arent lucky enough to win the lottery? It's a whole new variable to add to the list of reasons why X, Y, or Z did not show for their shift.....

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:09 pm

Theres Always One wrote:Will Larry Harvey be in the lottery? Will he still think its a good idea if his name is not selected?

There are hundreds of ticket "given" away. All the people who work 36 hours at a sanctioned camp get a ticket for free (meaning the "earned" it). So the only way to get out the lottery is to work your ass off up in the dust. If you can get in with someone in the know, that is.

BBadger · Post by **BBadger** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:12 pm

Welp, time to contact all my friends, my parents, my siblings, etc.--all the people who won't even go to BM--to sign up for "the lottery." Time to break out multiple check and credit cards from different accounts and use those too.

If I can't get my ticket through a surgical strike by waking up early and hitting submit quickly, I guess I'll have to resort to carpet bombing and sort out the remains in the aftermath that follows.

Not sure what this "lottery" concept accomplishes except to reduce the stress for some folk during the cheaper tiers, but if this is the new playing field, let the games begin.

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:20 pm

BeachBum wrote:I'm also one of the many who just registered for ePlaya to say how much i dislike this lottery idea....

And what's the rule-of-thumb. For each one that takes the steps to complain there's 100?, 1000? pissed off.
Ouch.

Ticket discussion may end up being a load test of the eplaya system...

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:22 pm

[quote="Shambala"]... I re-read the announcement, and everything is going to be fine. There will be plenty of tickets for everyone...
Oh.
O.K.
Just like in 2011.

So, a posted guess is demand of 60,000 to 65,000 for 55,000 tickets.
Any updates on BLM license population increase?

jmd327 · Post by **jmd327** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:28 pm

Absolutely the most ludicrousness decision you have made yet to date! Fix the old system. You never got it right because you never hired the right people for the job so the servers wouldn't be overloaded. Get some better tech advice than the people you have used in the past. Creating a new system like this is going to get rid of many people in the community that can only afford the first tier tickets or must know they have tickets early enough in order to plan for Burningman. This is absolutely a riot!!

This Woman · Post by **This Woman** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:33 pm

Argh - my computer just killed my message. But I'm sure it was redundant anyway, so I'll take the hint and shorten it up...

The lottery sounds like a scalpers dream and a theme camp's nightmare....and our camp had only 26 last year. For those who number in the hundreds, my sympathies. Since I'm not a scalper and I run a theme camp, I do believe I'm done. I put up with a lot of crap and expense to run the camp because I love it. But I don't think I'm willing to take this logistical nightmare on.

(I hardly ever fuck at Burning Man...sigh.)

Post by **trilobyte** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:39 pm

Relax, Canoe, ePlaya can handle the load just fine. Peak site usage over the weekend was under a third of what peak site usage was during the thick of it last summer.

Comparing to 2011 (in response to what you wrote to Shambala, though seriously uncheck that 'disable bbcode' box in your message edit window), there were enough tickets to cover roughly 85-90% of demand. My estimates (the numbers you cite in your message, which I think I'd said were my own estimates) are based on what I know of the event history and population caps in recent years. BLM permit numbers have not been made public that I'm aware of.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:41 pm

Mojojita wrote:It will be interesting to see how this plan will work with the volunteers of different departments - lots of us, even at least one department head, prefer to buy our tickets instead of taking the "staff" freebie (there really are a few good reasons for this). Imagine trying to build/manage a volunteer schedule if a percentage of your volunteers arent lucky enough to win the lottery? It's a whole new variable to add to the list of reasons why X, Y, or Z did not show for their shift.....

I would guess that they could set aside tickets for the departments, who could then have you buy at a tier price and put out their list of reliable names.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:03 pm

junglesmacks wrote:
Raymaker wrote:I only read page 1 of 22 so someone else may have already mentioned this, last year one person requested tickets for four people, this year all four people will request 4 tickets each, so instead of removing four tickets from the 50,000 available they could end up removing 16 tickets, 12 tickets they will have to sell on afterwards.

No. The JRS clearly states that you can only win one ticket from each lottery.

Please quote from the JRS JS... Because info is stated nowhere. You may be thinking of:

- You will only be able to purchase tickets from one lottery

Tickets. Plural.

-Badger

ubicomp · Post by **ubicomp** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:15 pm

I'm in camp "Lottery Bullshit" this year. As others have already mentioned, how is this going to stop scalpers?? It's not! Their lemmings will enter the same lottery all of us Burners are in, and things will be no different! Let's see how happy you smug "stop whining" types are when the fates deny you a ticket and you're trawling CL or EBay for a $1K or $2K potential counterfeit. I'm willing to be totally "whatever happens, happens" in all things Burning Man except when it comes to making sure I'm going in the first place. Yes, this is most certainly penalizing those who have their shit together enough to secure their spot early. The Radical Self-Reliance I've been exercising to ensure I get a golden ticket through the gate each year is now being replaced by Radical Luck. Not thrilled. Guess I'll just start adjusting my expectations this year to the possibility that I won't be able to participate.

illy dilly · Post by **illy dilly** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:29 pm

LostinReno wrote:
Eric wrote:Can I just say, from a totally non-moderator point of view, that this thread has finally taken a turn that doesn't make me want to gouge my eyes out.

I am, however, now hungry for an Indian taco.
I tried to lighten up 25 pages of repetive blather. *sigh*

I tried helping, but then sadly, had to get back to work!

Though, this thread is sorta important maybe. Maybe, just maybe, if the BMorg reads some of this, they might realize that maybe its not the best idea to go forward with their decision. Similar to Netflix thinking about splitting into two companies, then realizing it was a bad idea. Or Wells Fargo or BofA or who ever it was that was going to charge Debit card fee, then enough "if you do that, we're out of here" and they realized it was a bad idea.

In any case.....back to the topic at hand,
Would a Jewish Indian taco be similar to a Gyro?

Paloma8 · Post by **Paloma8** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:32 pm

Jewel Man wrote:
I am starting the Occupy Black Rock City Movement for all of us who have felt the oppression of the Elders decision to unilaterally decide what is right for the whole community without considering the People's input. We the People fund the whole experience so why shouldn't we have a say on who gets selected to participate. The Lotto presents a perfect environment for someone to become the ultimate "Decider" of who get's to go and who doesn't.

RIGHT ON. If we could only get a bit organized instead of venting....... there's PAGES here from a lot of people... I know it would seem impossible to just get people not to register... wow, how would THAT look to the lotto people? But if burners didn't register out of protest.... well Ok then the scalpers would etc etc......... I don't have a plan, but I'm trying to think how we can channel all this frustration to result in a better outcome.

Yes - they have the 'right' to make the decision to have us all hop to and gamble our tickets away........ but isn't there something we can do while there's still time to help them see how many participants object to this? I say the same as JewelMan.... they might have the 'right' to decide.... but they need to see the wisdom of considering our input. WE MAKE THE HAPPENING HAPPEN. Occupy BRC ... we could get Duct Tape to be our sponsor........

Jaysus - how much could it cost to get a bigger server for the first day? After that there wasn't a problem and tickets lasted for MONTHS.

Honestly - I've read scalpers like 100 times, but I don't know anyone who has bought a scalped ticket and I've never sold one higher.... as far as I'm concerned, that's between buyer and seller... and I don't really thing BMORG cares SO freaking much about us getting scalped....... so what really is going on here....

lucky420 · Post by **lucky420** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:36 pm

oh yeah it's just one big fucking conspiracy. It is it really is...

Epiphany Starlight · Post by **Epiphany Starlight** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:48 pm

When I heard the news and confirmed it wasn't a joke I took to my bed for a whole day to process and mourn. I thought I would go to BM for the rest of my life and have my son take my ashes to the temple. That dream just evaporated...

Entitlement won't save me... My husband or son have bought my ticket for me all 6x's I've gone.(neither go but the irony is that one fights wildland fires and the other likes to race around and shoot guns) I've volunteered (which was when it really got fun and had meaning) and helped organize and run a service theme camp BRCDOM for three years... whine, snivle, sob...

Is there life after BM? Of course... there's just less to get excited about. If I lose I may go to UMF to dance my sorrows away.

Can I come and camp somewhere in the hills so I can at least see the pretty lights?

BMORG: I thank you for a great ride and send you the best on a difficult decision. Wouldn't want to be ya, except I'd still be at the party. "The Fire in Me Recognizes the Fire in You"

Oh and I've gotten a few really good laughs reading this blog. Thanx

I'd intoduce myself but I'm not sure how???

lokiloki · Post by **lokiloki** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:09 pm

I want to add my name to the list of those not in favor of this lottery.

No. No, I say. No.

wingnut_bk · Post by **wingnut_bk** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:22 pm

There have to be experts in game theory who could come up with some better systems, given a set of value parameters. The question is, what parameters? The only value I'm seeing in the lottery system described thus far is "use random chance to reduce the Black Rock City population."

Seems like "reward early commitment" should be a significant value, along with "provide assistance to artists who are contributing to the community." Is "provide assistance for low-income people" really necessary? It's debatable.

Whatever, the values need to be clear, and the ticketing system has to conform to them.

I see a big problem with apportioning all tickets through a lottery: Everyone who enters the lottery will order the maximum number of tickets. If the limit is 3, then you will sell all of the tickets to 16,667 people. You're delegating these 16,667 people to apportion tickets to the other 33,333 people. Is that what we want, really?

I see another big problem in having multiple lottery rounds: If you make up your mind to go in January, and enter, and lose the first lottery round, you will not get to go. On the other hand, someone who waits until June to enter could win the lottery and go. Is that what we want, really?

Seems like it would be reasonable to have a one week sign-up for the lower price tiers, then offer the rest on a first-come first-serve basis, with the losers from the lottery getting first in line. (Maybe, maybe not).

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:47 pm

illy dilly wrote:Would a Jewish Indian taco be similar to a Gyro?

No, that's a Jewish Turkish taco. I think.

Do you know that they actually served us "NDN tacos" at our indian and pacific islander appreciation lunch* last week. Made by an actual NDN, too.

*I've forgotten the exact title of this lunch, and I'm fine with that. I don't care all that much.

junglesmacks · Post by **junglesmacks** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 pm

capjbadger wrote:
junglesmacks wrote:
Raymaker wrote:I only read page 1 of 22 so someone else may have already mentioned this, last year one person requested tickets for four people, this year all four people will request 4 tickets each, so instead of removing four tickets from the 50,000 available they could end up removing 16 tickets, 12 tickets they will have to sell on afterwards.

No. The JRS clearly states that you can only win one ticket from each lottery.
Please quote from the JRS JS... Because info is stated nowhere. You may be thinking of:
- You will only be able to purchase tickets from one lottery
Tickets. Plural.

-Badger

I admitted earlier that I misworded. It was early and my brain was not properly caffienated at the time.

BBadger · Post by **BBadger** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:15 pm

The biggest tragedy of every year's ticket debacle is the number of single-post people who join ePlaya.

EricBlack44 · Post by **EricBlack44** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:46 pm

Srsly! I'm so happy. This is going to be the bigest haul for our ticket sales company ever.

1) I use as many email accounts as I have credit cards.
1.2) Hell, I'l just get employess to register for me!
2) I win some and loose some but either way I just spent zero effort buying ALOT of burningman tickets.
3.1) Wait for the tickets to sell out OR
3.2) Don't wait for all those people who don't want to take their chances!
4) PROFITTT!!!!!

You cant stop me...just ask Pearl Jam.

...maybe I vend while Im there this year too.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:53 pm

EricBlack44 wrote:Srsly! I'm so happy. This is going to be the bigest haul for our ticket sales company ever.

1) I use as many email accounts as I have credit cards.
1.2) Hell, I'l just get employess to register for me!
2) I win some and loose some but either way I just spent zero effort buying ALOT of burningman tickets.
3.1) Wait for the tickets to sell out OR
3.2) Don't wait for all those people who don't want to take their chances!
4) PROFITTT!!!!!

You cant stop me...just ask Pearl Jam.

...maybe I vend while Im there this year too.

[youtube][/youtube]

MrMullen · Post by **MrMullen** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:13 pm

I'm blown away that something I posted got 26 pages and several thousand views! I guess I have made my contribution to the event!

PS> Hitler does not like the new lottery system either.
PSS> My wife and I made this. It was like getting in a time machine back to a 2006 meme!

[youtube][/youtube]

Flitz · Post by **Flitz** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:48 pm

It seems to me that Burners just want to Burn (and via JRS, that most likely means real veteran Burners) The news has shaken up a lot of Burners including me, who spends thousands and thousands of hours and dollars on prep for art/themecamp/outfits/gifts etc. This planning for me and many starts a year or more ahead. I have stopped my prep for 2012 until I hear further details, the consequence unfortunately is hindered participation - At this point, I am not confident I will be able to secure my cherrished ticket with this system.

The lottery system (as of yet) is not clear how it will address those of us who plan to give and participate (which requires more prep than bringing a ravenous cup and dawning a funny hat purchased in Reno on the way in). Lottery by nature is a system of luck. Few win, most lose. This system appears to only solve the technical issue of jammed servers on day one of ticket sales while discouraging planning and participation (ie, art cars, theme camps, gifting, etc) Solving the day one rush seems simple... increase server/etc capacity. Done! The scalper issue is solved with non-transferrable tickets. Yes, these add some additional efforts, but ensure those who are commited and plan ahead, the opportunity (of time) to create the incredible works of art and giving that MAKE Burning Man what it is. I certainly hope the new system, whatever it turns out to be, recognizes that although unprepared and non-participating burners are a part of our city, they shouldn't be encouraged and rewarded. Change is inevitable, but time and preparation are vital elements to the Burning Man experience.

"My life is way better than your vacation."

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THE Ticket Solution