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AuldAne
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Post by AuldAne » Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:04 pm

Simply Joel wrote:Without being taught a set of ethics (ususally societal), one operates in a void.
I was wondering about the basis of those ethics (accountable to what?). I don't just mean yours, or a soldier's in general, but if there's something more universal. Maybe maybe not. My point was that if you take relativism far enough you basically can't even carry on a conversation anymore, because there is no common ground. Your morality would have meaning to you, and mine to me, but put us together and we have nothing to talk about. At that point I think morality as a concept loses intrinsic value, and also becomes boring. That would be sad.

I do agree with you about training and leadership, especially as a practical matter. But I think in terms of the moral decision it more spreads the accountability around rather than diminishes it for any individual.
Simply Joel wrote: By the way... I consider your illustration to be apples and oranges... solders in most cases don''t deserve being compared to a murderer as you have done above.
If you didn't feel that way there wouldn't have been much point in making the illustration. I do admit the terms "soldier" and "murderer" are charged, and I was trying to get a reaction out of you, but in my defense I don't think that the illustration was about "most cases".
Simply Joel wrote: like I require your permission?
...
I believe we could all figure that one out on our own.
Come now, no need for all that. Just because I self-efface doesn't mean you need to agree with it.

On the other subject:
Simply Joel wrote: Whoa, fucking whoa... a veteran earned his GI Bill.... it is part of the contract, not social or corporate fucking welfare.

Milton Friedman is way cooler, by the way.
The questions aren't right or wrong, to test purity or whatever. They're to see the reasoning behind it. Ol' Milt thought primary school and local roads (and the military) were a proper use of government "giving", but he had good reasons for it. So in the case of the GI Bill what you need to decide on is the propriety of the contract, just as you must analyze the propriety of the social security "contract", etc. You can then tell whether the GI Bill is within the proper role of government because of XYZ or because I happen to benefit from it.

Anyway, I need to get ready for that desert trip I've been planning. I gather you're not going this year, Joel, but I hope you have a good week anyhow.
[A man] would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. - Joseph Heller, Catch-22

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samtzu
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Post by samtzu » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:50 pm

AuldAne wrote:
samtzu wrote:

Every time the Gov'ment gives, they take away a freedom or liberty.
Usually people who say things like that are either Republican or Libertarian. The way to tell the difference is to start asking them about government "giving" that they might take for granted. For best effectiveness, tailor to the subject: ask the rural man about farm subsidies, the veteran about the GI Bill, the family man about primary education, and pretty much everyone about roads, their local military base, you get the picture. You will discover they either mean "Every time the gov'ment gives to someone besides me they take away my freedom or liberty", or they mean, well, something more interesting.

Or just ask them who they think is cooler, Rush Limbaugh or Milton Friedman, that'll do the trick too.
Thanks for turning me into an 'either/or', two dimensional, totally predictible dipshit... and doing it with such a wonderful condesending attitude. I didn't know I was so fucking transparent... jeez, I guess I'm going to have to drag all my old Ross Perot buttons out of hiding and put them back on again.

I am neither 'fish nor fowl'.... nor much of anything in between. Take your label and stuff it, flaming, up into your nether regions. I am a human being who despises those fucking facists, mental, emotional, or political, who 'know what is best' for someone else. Fuck Limbaugh, fuck Friedman... Hell, fuck all three of the present candidates, their wives, children, dogs, and anyone who licks their butts to feel like they are part of 'something bigger'. To me independent means independent... And I reserve the right to contradict myself anytime I fucking feel like it... Fuck! Shit! Fuck! Shit! Fuck! Shit! Fuck! Shit! Fuck! Shit! Fuck! Shit!! (God dammit!! I'm foaming at the mouth again. Gotta' quit taking stupidity personally...)

By the way... you smell... ummmmmmm... trollish.

Are you? :twisted:
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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cowboyangel
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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:09 am

up to 400,000 protesting the satan oops republican convention!!!
former MPs and marines say they will vote against Bush and they don't know what purpose the war is serving anymore (Democracy Now Aug30)
Independent Media is doing a terrific job ( I'm an Indy Media Reporter BTW)
for the "real" non-corporate news go to http://sf.indymedia.org/

ok conservatives....let your ranting begin
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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protester are anti-bush, but not quite pro-kerry

Post by Simply Joel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:47 pm

500,000 to 125,000 depending on your sources...

now, will the protestors do this every weekend until the war is over, or was this a nice walk in the park (so to speak...)

the impact of the "Anti-Bush" parade is highly over-stated... and it certainly wasn't a "Pro-Kerry" march by any means...

if you read further, the DNC platform sounds very "chicken-hawkish" to me... but hey, it is just my opinion.


August 30, 2004
Vast Anti-Bush Rally Greets Republicans in New York
By ROBERT D. McFADDEN

A roaring two-mile river of demonstrators surged through the canyons of Manhattan yesterday in the city's largest political protest in decades, a raucous but peaceful spectacle that pilloried George W. Bush and demanded regime change in Washington.

On a sweltering August Sunday, the huge throng of protesters marched past Madison Square Garden, the site of the Republican National Convention opening today, and denounced President Bush as a misfit who had plunged America into war and runaway debt, undermined civil and constitutional rights, lied to the people, despoiled the environment and used the presidency to benefit corporations and millionaires.

The protest organizer, United for Peace and Justice, estimated the crowd at 500,000, rivaling a 1982 antinuclear rally in Central Park, and double the number it had predicted. It was, at best, a rough estimate. The Police Department, as is customary, offered no official estimate, but one officer in touch with the police command center at Madison Square Garden agreed that the crowd appeared to be close to a half-million


or....


New York Quiet After a Day of Protests

Mon Aug 30,12:38 PM
By MATT CRENSON, AP National Writer

NEW YORK - Protesters handed the streets of Manhattan back to morning commuters Monday as police kept the heart of the city — and the country's busiest railway station — under tight guard for the opening of the Republican National Convention.

The heavy police presence around Penn Station and Madison Square Garden, aimed at guarding against the twin threats of terrorism and violent dissent, lent an uneasy feel to the first morning rush hour of convention week.

Subways appeared to be running with no major delays, and traffic flowed on open streets. More than 30 city blocks had been shut down Sunday for an anti-Bush protest that drew at least 120,000 people and possibly many thousands more.

DNC Platform http://www.democrats.org/platform/
Our overriding goals are the same as ever: to protect our people and our way of life; and to help build a safer, more peaceful, more prosperous, more democratic world. Today, we face three great challenges above all others – first, to win the global war against terror; second, to stop the 2004 Democratic National Platform Committee Report – 4 spread of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons; and third, to promote democracy and freedom around the world, starting with a peaceful and stable Iraq. To meet these challenges, we need a new national security policy guided by four new imperatives: First, America must launch and lead a new era of alliances for the post-September 11 world. Second, we must modernize the world's most powerful military to meet the new threats. Third, in addition to our military might, we must deploy all that is in America's arsenal – our diplomacy, our intelligence system, our economic power, and the appeal of our values and ideas.
Fourth and finally, to safeguard our freedom and ensure our nation's future, we must end our dependence on Mideast oil.

DEFEATING TERRORISM
Today, the Bush Administration is waging a war against a global terrorist movement committed to our destruction with insufficient understanding of our enemy or effort to address the underlying factors that can give rise to new recruits. This war isn't just a manhunt. We cannot rest until Osama bin Laden is captured or killed, but that day will mark only a victory in the war on terror, not its end. Terrorists like al Qaeda and its affiliates are unlike any adversary our nation has ever known. We face a global terrorist movement of many groups, funded from different sources with
separate agendas, but all committed to assaulting the United States and free and open societies around the globe. Despite his tough talk, President Bush's actions against terrorism have fallen far short. He still has no comprehensive strategy for victory. After allowing bin Laden to escape from our grasp at Tora Bora, he diverted crucial resources from the effort to destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan. His doctrine of unilateral preemption has driven away our allies and cost us the support of other nations.

We must put in place a strategy to win – an approach that recognizes and addresses the many facets of this mortal challenge, from the terrorists themselves to the root causes that give rise to new recruits, and uses all the tools at our disposal. Agents of terrorism work in the shadows of
more than 60 nations, on every continent. The only possible path to victory will be found in the company of others, not walking alone. With John Kerry as Commander-in-Chief, we will never wait for a green light from abroad when our safety is at stake, but we must enlist those whose
support we need for ultimate victory. Victory in the war on terror requires a combination of American determination and international cooperation on all fronts. It requires the ability and willingness to direct immediate, effective military action when the capture or destruction of terrorist groups and their leaders is possible; a massive improvement in intelligence gathering and analysis coupled with vigorous law
enforcement; a relentless effort to shut down the flow of terrorist funds; a global effort to prevent failed or failing states that can become sanctuaries for terrorists; a sustained effort to deny terrorists any more recruits by conducting effective public diplomacy; and a sustained political and economic effort to improve education, work for peace, support democracy and extend hope.

Improving intelligence to find and stop terrorists. We will train and equip the military to enhance its capabilities to seek out and destroy terrorists. We will strengthen the capacity of 2004 Democratic National Platform Committee Report – 5 intelligence and law enforcement around the world by forging stronger international coalitions to provide better information and communication.

We must also improve our intelligence here at home. From the failure to uncover the September 11th plot to the deeply misguided reports about Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction, we have experienced unprecedented intelligence failures in recent years. We must do what President Bush has refused to do – reform our intelligence system by creating a true Director of National Intelligence with real control of intelligence personnel and budgets. We must train more analysts in languages spoken by terrorists. And we must break down the old communications barriers between national intelligence and local law enforcement, taking care to fully preserve our liberties.

Cutting off terrorist funds. We will move decisively to cut off the flow of terrorist funds. We will impose tough financial sanctions against nations or banks that engage in money laundering or fail to act against it. We will strengthen our anti-money laundering laws to prevent terrorists from using hedge funds and unregulated institutions to finance terror. We will launch a "name and shame" campaign against those that are financing terror. If nations do not respond, they will be shut out of the U.S. financial system. And in the specific case of Saudi Arabia, we will put an end to the Bush Administration's kid-glove approach to the supply and laundering of terrorist money. Preventing Afghanistan and other nations from becoming terrorist havens. Nowhere is the need for collective endeavor greater than in Afghanistan. The Bush Administration has badly mishandled the war's aftermath. Two years ago, President Bush promised a Marshall Plan to rebuild that country. Instead, he has all but turned away from Afghanistan, allowing it to become again a potential haven for terrorists.

We must expand NATO forces outside Kabul. We must accelerate training for the Afghan army and police. The program to disarm and reintegrate warlord militias into society must be expedited and expanded into a mainstream strategy. We will attack the exploding opium trade ignored by the Bush Administration by doubling our counter-narcotics assistance to the Karzai Government and reinvigorating the regional drug control program. Beyond Afghanistan, terrorist attacks from Saudi Arabia and Indonesia to Kenya, Morocco, and Turkey point to a widening network of terrorists targeting this country and our friends. Failed and failing states like Somalia or countries with large areas of limited government control like the Philippines and Indonesia need international help to close down terrorist havens.

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:46 pm

right on the chiken-hawk demos Joel......I'm not a Demo btw
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Simply Joel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:58 pm

cowboyangel wrote:right on the chiken-hawk demos Joel......I'm not a Demo btw
so where were your beloved protesters in Boston?

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:13 pm

Simply Joel wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:right on the chiken-hawk demos Joel......I'm not a Demo btw
so where were your beloved protesters in Boston?
my beloved protestors...ah I love the ring of that.....don't worry we'll be on President Kerry's ass too!!!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Simply Joel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:10 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:right on the chiken-hawk demos Joel......I'm not a Demo btw
so where were your beloved protesters in Boston?
my beloved protestors...ah I love the ring of that.....don't worry we'll be on President Kerry's ass too!!!
Just don't let your demand for peace get in the way of the USA meeting its obligations to the world.

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cowboyangel
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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:04 pm

Simply Joel wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:
Simply Joel wrote: so where were your beloved protesters in Boston?
my beloved protestors...ah I love the ring of that.....don't worry we'll be on President Kerry's ass too!!!
Just don't let your demand for peace get in the way of the USA meeting its obligations to the world.
as Curly Joe would say..."ceurtanly"
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:33 am

cowboyangel wrote:as Curly Joe would say..."ceurtanly"
Actually, I believe the correct spelling would be "coitenly!"

And I just wanted to disavow any connection with the RNP (Republican Nimrod Party) despite Shrubs use of my name in an attempt to bask in a little of my reflected glory.

Wotta fucktard.
Be the dime you seek.

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Post by Simply Joel » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:06 pm

Items in bold are specifics of which I agree with...
September 7, 2004

Cult of Death
By DAVID BROOKS

We've been forced to witness the massacre of innocents. In New York, Madrid, Moscow, Tel Aviv, Baghdad and Bali, we have seen thousands of people destroyed while going about the daily activities of life.

We've been forced to endure the massacre of children. Whether it's teenagers outside an Israeli disco or students in Beslan, Russia, we've seen kids singled out as special targets.

We should by now have become used to the death cult that is thriving at the fringes of the Muslim world. This is the cult of people who are proud to declare, "You love life, but we love death." This is the cult that sent waves of defenseless children to be mowed down on the battlefields of the Iran-Iraq war, that trains kindergartners to become bombs, that fetishizes death, that sends people off joyfully to commit mass murder.

This cult attaches itself to a political cause but parasitically strangles it. The death cult has strangled the dream of a Palestinian state. The suicide bombers have not brought peace to Palestine; they've brought reprisals. The car bombers are not pushing the U.S. out of Iraq; they're forcing us to stay longer. The death cult is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will bring not independence but blood.

But that's the idea. Because the death cult is not really about the cause it purports to serve. It's about the sheer pleasure of killing and dying.

It's about massacring people while in a state of spiritual loftiness. It's about experiencing the total freedom of barbarism - freedom even from human nature, which says, Love children, and Love life. It's about the joy of sadism and suicide.

We should be used to this pathological mass movement by now. We should be able to talk about such things. Yet when you look at the Western reaction to the Beslan massacres, you see people quick to divert their attention away from the core horror of this act, as if to say: We don't want to stare into this abyss. We don't want to acknowledge those parts of human nature that were on display in Beslan. Something here, if thought about too deeply, undermines the categories we use to live our lives, undermines our faith in the essential goodness of human beings.

Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage.

The Boston Globe editorial, which was typical of the American journalistic response, made two quick references to the barbarity of the terrorists, but then quickly veered off with long passages condemning Putin and various Russian policy errors.

The Dutch foreign minister, Bernard Bot, speaking on behalf of the European Union, declared: "All countries in the world need to work together to prevent tragedies like this. But we also would like to know from the Russian authorities how this tragedy could have happened."

It wasn't a tragedy. It was a carefully planned mass murder operation. And it wasn't Russian authorities who stuffed basketball nets with explosives and shot children in the back as they tried to run away.

Whatever horrors the Russians have perpetrated upon the Chechens, whatever their ineptitude in responding to the attack, the essential nature of this act was in the act itself. It was the fact that a team of human beings could go into a school, live with hundreds of children for a few days, look them in the eyes and hear their cries, and then blow them up.

Dissertations will be written about the euphemisms the media used to describe these murderers. They were called "separatists" and "hostage-takers." Three years after Sept. 11, many are still apparently unable to talk about this evil. They still try to rationalize terror. What drives the terrorists to do this? What are they trying to achieve?

They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."

This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

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Post by Simply Joel » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:25 pm

Provided for you to come to your own conclusions, yet so little outrage over the terrorist is expressed herein.

GLOBE EDITORIAL
The bloodshed in Russia
September 4, 2004

YESTERDAY'S HORRIFIC end of the hostage crisis in Russia's Republic of North Ossetia, with a death toll in three figures, illustrates above all the hostage-takers' pitiless cruelty. The chaos surrounding the unplanned rescue operation and the manner in which Russian special forces lost control of the situation also suggest a lack of competence that had tragic consequences.

The barbarism of the hostage takers was manifest in their refusal to allow food, water, or medicines to be brought to their captives for two days. Still, the carnage at the besieged school ought to bring home to both Russians and Chechens an inescapable truth: that violence cannot resolve the conflict between them and can only cause more suffering.

Even if the official Russian version of what happened yesterday at the school in Breslan, North Ossetia, is taken at face value, it appears the Russian forces managing the siege and the rescue operation were guilty of blunders that cost many lives. Inexplicably, they failed to establish a tight security cordon around the school where the hostages were being held. They also neglected to keep civilians at a safe distance from the site of the standoff.

Since there was no proper security perimeter, many of the terrorists were able to hide among fleeing hostages and escape into the town of Breslan after an explosion collapsed part of the gymnasium and Russian forces exchanged fire with a cluster of hostage-takers inside the school.

Russian authorities said the storming of the school was not planned and had been forced on them by the explosion. Whether or not this version of events is true, those authorities ought to have been prepared for an eventual assault on the hostage-takers.

Russian forces were nearing the moment when they would have had to mount a rescue operation on their own initiative. Conditions were becoming intolerable: no food or water and stifling heat. Children were piled on top of one another in the overcrowded gymnasium.

What makes the Kremlin's mismanagement of the rescue operation even worse is the reputation the government of President Vladimir Putin has earned for peddling propaganda to the public rather than telling the truth. Because the KGB veterans who now dominate Putin's entourage seek to control the media, harrassing independent reporters and propagating flagrant lies, particularly about the war in Chechnya, whatever they say about the desolating loss of life must be suspect.

Nothing can be done now to bring back those lost lives. But if Putin were to admit the failure of his war policy in Chechnya and explore a political solution, he would have a chance to end the rationale for such outrages as the hostage-taking and save the lives of many Chechens and Russians.

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Be alarmed, I am....

Post by Simply Joel » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:32 am

Passing legislation creating an Intelligence Czar before the election is an error in judgement. Items in bold reflect my agreements with the author.
If the Patriot Act gave you nightmares, this ought make you scream psychotically while running down the street naked...


September 8, 2004
Tomorrow's 'Rogue Elephant'
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

WASHINGTON

The Congress's September stampede is on. One purpose is to force votes that will embarrass the political opposition.

From the G.O.P. comes the constitutional amendment to prohibit same-sex marriage. This Bush-supported grandstand play has no chance of final passage in a two-thirds' vote, and rightly so: the Supreme Court should be asked to decide conflicts among the states before any move is made to pre-empt or overrule its decision.

But on another issue, because the court long ago decided that a law to prohibit flag-burning was unconstitutional, here comes an amendment to overrule it. House Republicans will pass this, knowing the Senate will deny passage late this month, hoping thereby to knock off a few free-speech senators.

But the real danger to the nation in this month's billmanship is the slapdash, quick-fix, pre-Election Day rush to install an intelligence "czar" who could merge spying with law enforcement and mix intelligence assessments with policy guidance.

This is an attempt driven by Democrats who belatedly want to show how hot they are for waging war on terror, and joined by Republicans eager not be out-crackdowned by the panicked new converts to untrammeled foreign and domestic espionage.

First was Senate Intelligence, the Mr. Magoo brigade that is desperate to cover up its oversight misfeasance. (Its secret report in 2001 about the killing of 17 sailors aboard the U.S.S. Cole is too embarrassing to be unclassified.) This "break up the Yankees" plan by the Republican Pat Roberts sets up three separate C.I.A.'s - stripping intel from the Pentagon, further dispiriting the crew at Langley and busting up the F.B.I. But Democrats are hooting because it dares to deviate from the blueprint laid down by the lionized 9/11 panel.

Marching lock step with the recommendations of the high-powered private lobbying group that used to be the 9/11 commission, the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs yesterday unburdened itself of a 280-page omnibus bill. Senators posed with Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, each promoting himself in the media primary for election to czar.

Ordinarily sensible senators like Joe Lieberman and John McCain touted the centralization, their dots apparently connected by the feeling that unless something passed before the election deadline, no changes would ever be made. But we are being hustled into a huge reorganization of our government under unnecessary pressure. For example:

Nobody in Congress was watching the store. "We should strive to never again read a report," says McCain, "that calls Congressional oversight 'dysfunctional.' " So what is being done about this, in the race to legislate? Zero: a "sense of the Congress" resolution kicking the can down to a "task force" in the next Congress. But you can't fix the watchers without simultaneously fixing their watchmen.

And what about the commission's ingenious reformist idea to put more spies on the ground? James Pavitt, our chief clandestine spook until he quit last month, wrote in The Washington Post that "human intelligence capabilities were badly depleted during the 1990's" and revealed "a 30 percent decline in funding for the C.I.A.'s Directorate of Operations, the men and women in the clandestine service who penetrate terrorist networks, recruit spies and steal secrets."

The proposal to be railroaded into law would concentrate power in one unelected official. It would eviscerate the coordination function of the national security adviser, invite budgetary rivalry with the homeland security secretary and guarantee operational clashes with military officers in the field. Disagreement between the president and the new boss of all covert bosses could paralyze the nation at a moment of crisis.

This pre-election panacea not only demolishes the barrier between information provider and policy maker, but also undermines analytical conflict and institutionalizes the "groupthink" it professes to cure.

After dangerously marrying the law officer and the spy, it sets up a soothing and toothless Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board likely to be as feckless as the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board.

Call me unduly cautious - call me soft on terror - but have we thought through the downside of this brilliantly publicized, timorously debated, posterior-covering legislation? Don't we trust ourselves to elect a responsible president and Congress to deal with this soberly only a few months from now?


E-mail: [email protected]

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:56 am

from Heaven I come back to Russian kids getting blown away en masse, Bush surging ahead of Kerry, New York City turning into a free speech gulag,
and I'm afraid to look at more. We need places like Black Rock City even more now.......
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Simply Joel » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:59 am

cowboyangel wrote:from Heaven I come back to Russian kids getting blown away en masse, Bush surging ahead of Kerry, New York City turning into a free speech gulag,
and I'm afraid to look at more. We need places like Black Rock City even more now.......
in as much as i hate to agree... reality does suck...

now get back to work.

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Post by Force » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:46 pm

What, no one's gonna comment on Cheney saying;

"If we make the wrong choice in November we could get hit again..."

intimating that voting for Kerry would instigate terrorist attacks?


Can anyone else come up with a clearer "culture of fear"-type example of such a ham-handed attempt at manipulation?

It's a shame that so many people fall for this stupid crap.

When will people wake up and realize that the reason we don't have our borders sealed is because they WANT us to get hit, which will create MORE fear, which will enable them to pass even more laws allowing them to spy on us and siphon off more money into the war machine?

Why do people actually believe that these scoundrels CARE about them, when in actuality we are nothing more than pawns and pocketbooks to them?

Or do they actually believe that these clowns really give a shit about joe-bob living in the trailer park? Please.

Or maybe even Cheney is disturbed by the current administrations' actions and the "wrong choice" he spoke of is to vote for Bush?

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Post by Rob the Wop » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Force wrote:When will people wake up and realize that the reason we don't have our borders sealed is because they WANT us to get hit, which will create MORE fear, which will enable them to pass even more laws allowing them to spy on us and siphon off more money into the war machine?
I, for one, also advocate manning machine guns at the Mexican border, Canadian border, and all along both shores. Launch fighter jets at any airplane that dares fly towards our airports from foriegn lands. My God man! They could even smuggle in <shudder> BAD BEER! Kill all that approach!

That'll teach those terrorists! No one gets in, ever! Sealing our borders would just prove to the world how their perception of American paranoia is utterlly baseless.
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:34 am

Force wrote:What, no one's gonna comment on Cheney saying;

"If we make the wrong choice in November we could get hit again..."

intimating that voting for Kerry would instigate terrorist attacks?


Can anyone else come up with a clearer "culture of fear"-type example of such a ham-handed attempt at manipulation?

It's a shame that so many people fall for this stupid crap.
As I said in "This thread self-destructs on 3 November 2004" This is a Blackmail. Bush and Cheney are punks.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:40 am

Richard G. Butler, 86, Founder of the Aryan Nations, Dies
By DANIEL J. WAKIN

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Published: September 9, 2004


Richard G. Butler, the founder of the Aryan Nations and a leading figure in the white supremacist movement who preached that Jews descend from Satan and black people are subhuman, died yesterday in his home. He was 86.

Mr. Butler died in his sleep in Hayden, Idaho, The Associated Press reported, at a home lent by a wealthy supporter after he lost his 20-acre compound four years ago in a lawsuit brought by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Mr. Butler, weakened by congestive heart failure, lived out his final years in a house adorned with crosses, relics and books about Adolph Hitler and Holocaust denial. He was surrounded by a dwindling number of quarrelsome followers, but maintained a presence on the Internet, with about 200 followers in about 17 chapters nationwide, said Mark Potok, who monitors the group for the Southern Poverty Law Center, based in Montgomery, Ala.

A racist to the end who ran unsuccessfully for mayor of Hayden, just outside Coeur d'Alene, last year "to keep it white," Mr. Butler for decades was a unifying force for white supremacists, skinheads, neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen and others of the ilk. He propagated the idea that the Northwestern states should be a refuge for whites.

"For many, many years, Richard Butler was the hub of the wheel of white supremacy," Mr. Potok said. "The Aryan Nations compound had a very serious importance in the movement for many years. This was the nonsectarian gathering point for haters of all stripes."

Mr. Butler held a yearly "World Congress" that at its peak drew several hundred people to the compound, near Hayden Lake, which was furnished with a silver bust of Hitler, stained-glass swastikas, Nazi flags, a guard tower and patrolling German shepherds. "Whites only," read a sign at the front gate.

During the last event, in July, Mr. Butler and about 40 followers marched through Coeur d'Alene. He gave the stiff-armed Nazi salute from the back of a pickup truck that dragged an Israeli flag behind.

But over the years, he also inspired a human rights movement in the Coeur d'Alene area. Several organizations opposed to racism and anti-Semitism were founded by local residents in reaction to his presence and out of concern for the area's reputation.

In recent years, criminal prosecutions of his followers, the loss of the compound, suspicions that the F.B.I. had infiltrated the group and defections eroded his influence.

By the end, Mr. Butler's World Congress drew fewer than 100 people, and when he ran for mayor, he lost by about 2,100 votes to 50.

Ron McIntire, the mayor of Hayden, said during the mayoral campaign in 2003 that Mr. Butler ran mainly so he would have "an opportunity to speak up again."

"He's slowly disappearing into the sunset,'' Mr. McIntire said.

Richard Girnt Butler was born Feb. 23, 1918, outside Denver and later moved with his family to Los Angeles, where he studied aeronautical engineering. While in India, working on planes for the Royal Indian Air Force, he said he became aware of the caste system and the idea of racial superiority.

"I noticed all the maharajahs were much whiter than the average Indian," he told The Los Angeles Times in an article published in 1999. "As you went up the hierarchy, the lighter they got. It all got me to thinking, and when I came home from overseas, I had a feeling that we, the white race, were losing the war."

He served with the Army Air Corps in the Pacific, after marrying his wife, Betty, in 1941. Mrs. Butler died in 1995; the couple had two daughters.

After the war, he settled in Montebello, Calif., where he said he came to believe that Jews were behind a Communist conspiracy of worldwide domination. He parted company with the Presbyterian Church, he said, because it was accepting minorities, and fell under the influence of Wesley Swift, a white supremacist preacher in Los Angeles.

While employed by Lockheed as an engineer, working on passenger airlines, he said he became disgusted when the government required more minority hirings at a Lockheed plant in connection with a federal loan. Mr. Butler went on to invent a method of repairing tubeless tires, making him financially comfortable and able to retire at 55.
In the 1970's, identifying Idaho as a racially pure place, Mr. Butler bought the land for his compound and founded the Aryan Nations in 1973. Several years later he established a religious arm, the Church of Jesus Christ Christian. He styled himself a pastor. The Aryan Nations distributed racist literature, held gatherings and recruited in prisons.

In his world, Jews controlled the news media and were descended from Eve and Satan, African-Americans were "mud people," and Hitler stood up for the white race.

"Eve was seduced," he told The Los Angeles Times. "Now our whole race is seduced. But we have a nation to broadcast the truth to our people. Two-thirds of our race will die, according to the Bible - because of the Antichrist, famine, disease, warfare, whatever."

In the 1980's, followers formed a splinter group called the Order. Members assassinated Alan Berg, a radio talk-show host who was Jewish, in Denver, bombed a synagogue in Boise and held up armored cars. Other former followers bombed the home of a Roman Catholic priest in Coeur d'Alene. Another former member sprayed gunfire in a Jewish Community Center filled with children and killed a Filipino letter carrier in Los Angeles.

Investigators failed to link Mr. Butler conclusively to violent activities. The only major criminal case he faced came in the late 1980's, when he and 10 others were charged in Arkansas with plotting to overthrow the government. They were acquitted.

In the end, it was a civil case that struck a major blow. As two local residents, Victoria Keenan and her teenage son Jason, were driving by the compound one night in 1998, their car backfired. Members of the Aryan Nations pursued the pair, shooting at them and assaulting them. The Keenans sued Mr. Butler's group, with help from the Southern Poverty Law Center, and won a $6.3 million judgment. Mr. Butler had to auction off the property, and it was bought by Greg Carr, an Idaho native and a former chairman of the Internet service Prodigy.

The buildings were burned down, and Mr. Carr donated the land to North Idaho College, which designated it a "peace park." Half of the month, said Norman Gissel, a member of the Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations, people are given tours of the area.

The rest of the time, he said, cows use it for pasture.
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:48 am

Richard G. Butler, 86, Founder of the Aryan Nations, Dies


Good Riddance...

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:03 am

Sharon's 'Gaza Problem': It May Be Israelis, Not Arabs

By STEVEN ERLANGER

Published: September 9, 2004


JERUSALEM, Sept. 8 - Shimon Peres, a former prime minister of Israel, once said there are no real negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians, only among Israelis themselves about what to concede.

This helps explain why Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan for a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, as simple as it sounds, is running into so many problems.

In fact, Mr. Sharon's effort to remove the Israeli settlers and military from Gaza and hand it over to the Palestinians is running into so many obstacles, ranging from party politics and internal security to economics and international relations, that some - even close aides - wonder whether it may run into the sand.

Mr. Sharon, whose nickname is Bulldozer, is intent on making it happen. He plans to begin the removal of Gaza's settlers by February.

Following the failure of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in the 1990's, the aim of the current plan is threefold. It is, first of all, to create a more easily defensible Israel and leave Gaza, poor and difficult, to the Palestinians. Second, it seems likely to keep much of the West Bank in Israeli hands. Finally, it is advertised by Mr. Sharon and his aides as an opportunity for the Palestinians.

"It could shake the Palestinian system and might yet produce a responsible reaction," a senior Sharon aide said.

A senior Israeli military officer agreed, saying: "With obligation could come responsibility. Who knows?"

Moderate Palestinians say they are eager to show that they can run Gaza efficiently. But the prospect of an Israeli withdrawal has set off a struggle among Palestinians for control, both within Yasir Arafat's secular Fatah movement, the largest, and between Fatah and the more radical and Islamic factions, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

"All factions are smuggling in weapons through tunnels from Egypt," a senior Israeli intelligence officer said, describing the land under the Rafah crossing with Egypt as "an ant farm."

Hamas, sworn to Israel's destruction and contemptuous of Mr. Arafat and Fatah, has agreed to take part in local elections for the first time but is also preparing for the battles to come. Before dawn on Tuesday, Israeli helicopter gunships rocketed a Hamas training camp in a soccer stadium, killing 15 uniformed Hamas fighters and wounding more than 20.

While Palestinians and leftwing Israelis criticize the Gaza plan as a way for Mr. Sharon to consolidate Israel's hold on large areas of the West Bank, some nonetheless view it as a model for a workable arrangement.

The plan, which under American pressure also includes the dismantling of four small settlements in the West Bank, could also serve as a way to "re-engage" and build confidence for a final understanding that would produce significant Israeli withdrawals from the West Bank, some Israeli leftists and moderate Palestinians say.

A group of prominent Israelis, including Ephraim Sneh, a former deputy defense minister from the Labor Party, and Palestinians including Abed Alloun, a former senior security official in Gaza, and Mohammed Rashid, a Palestinian businessman, have pulled together a proposal to use Gaza as a confidence-building measure for further Israeli-Palestinian accommodations. But their vision of continued close cooperation between Gaza and Israel, especially on the economy, is precisely what Mr. Sharon is seeking to end.

All such planning presumes that the withdrawal will unfold as Mr. Sharon describes it. And prime among its problems are the political difficulties of Mr. Sharon himself, who may have to call early elections to find a government that will carry out the withdrawal.

Mr. Sharon and his plan have the support of some 70 percent of Israelis in opinion polls, as well as majority support in Parliament. "But a very solid majority in his own Likud Party is against the plan," a Sharon adviser said, in part because Mr. Sharon has mishandled his party, which is more ideological than he and reluctant to give away part of what many consider the biblical and historic land of Israel.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:12 am

Wonder if Sharon is starting to realize that Israel was being suckered by Bush and Co. instigating Israel to using the tacktics Israel is using, just to get the world to dislike the Jews.



Just something to think about. Nothing to get upset about.........well sort of anyway.

Fact: The Bush family supported and created Hitler. They may lie about it like they lie about G.W.'s service record ya know.
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:17 am

DVD Burner wrote:Wonder if Sharon is starting to realize that Israel was being suckered by Bush and Co. instigating Israel to using the tacktics Israel is using, just to get the world to dislike the Jews.



Just something to think about. Nothing to get upset about.........well sort of anyway.

Fact: The Bush family supported and created Hitler. They may lie about it like they lie about G.W.'s service record ya know.
unlike John Kerry's fabrications?

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Post by cowboyangel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:18 am

are the RedSox a religion or a covert political movement designed to get people to visit beantown?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:33 am

cowboyangel wrote:are the RedSox a religion or a covert political movement designed to get people to visit beantown?
i have been to Boston once, as a young teenager on vacation with my family.... i still don't have a good feel for the Revolutionary War period... where stuff was and what happened there... yet i do realize the locations significance... but you have to wonder why they select the politicians they choose.

baseball? watching paint dry is far more intellectually stimulating in my humble opinion...

and please be sure to note... i have suffered amongst CUB fans, listening to the incessant whining, far too long... you'd think they would get a f*cking clue, wouldn't you?

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Post by cowboyangel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:41 am

Would someone kindly tell me why it is that Frank Quattrone is always smiling? The guy's goin to jail for 18 months....does he know something we don't? Oh to be a criminal with lots a money in America today......
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:59 am

Former investment banker Frank Quattrone was sentenced on September 8, 2004 to 18 months in jail and fined $90,000 for obstructing federal probes into kickbacks involving some of the hottest stock offerings of the 1990s. Quattrone, 48, was convicted in May of attempting to block grand jury and regulatory investigations by forwarding an e-mail to co-workers reminding them to 'clean up' their files. He is seen in New York May 3. (Chip East/Reuters)
Reuters - Sep 08 4:15 PM

CA, I imagine it is due to the unfortunate reality.... he won't have to give much of the money he made doing less-than-ethical things as well as the criminal activity he was found guilty of.

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Post by cowboyangel » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:41 pm

this just hit my mailbox. God Love them all....wish I could have placed their pictures in the temple

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/091004W.shtml
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Force » Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:31 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Would someone kindly tell me why it is that Frank Quattrone is always smiling? The guy's goin to jail for 18 months....does he know something we don't? Oh to be a criminal with lots a money in America today......
Maybe he's thinking about the buttrape fantasies he's always secretly had that will finally be fulfilled?

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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:35 am

R U kidding? He knows he's going to club fed.
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