An agnostic burner’s point of view

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:24 am

jkisha wrote:Well, if you consider that the whole concept of god is a fantasy made up in people's minds, I guess it can be anything you imagine it to be. So, why even bother to define it further? It's still irrational, magical thinking which has no place in today's scientific, intellectually and technically driven age. In fact, I would venture to say that it is counterproductive and even distructive.

And Eric, I think your friend and I would get along splendidly.
Without the Aberhamic ravings.. Man would be 4-5000 years down the road of scientificly and intellectualy..

Jesus was a OWS'er.. Railing against The jewish laws of man.. These laws (how man should live) were written in stone by the second king of Babylon. (this stone ixsist today) Plagiarized by the the Jews while they were slaves of babylon.
Then made into the gospel of there god.. He set himself up as a martor and died for (right wrong or indifferent) his belief.. This just add to the fires of war to control mans mind..

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by TomServo » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:33 am

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:35 am

Anyone else remember that "Life in Hell" cartoon that had ~30 panels each with a different picture of god in it?
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Bob » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:18 am

My old man's an atheistic agnosticist
What do you think about that
He wears an atheistic agnosticist's collar
He wears an atheistic agnosticist's hat
He wears an atheistic agnosticist's raincoat
He wears an atheistic agnosticist's shoes
And every Saturday evening
He reads the Sunday News
And someday, if I can
I'm gonna be an atheistic agnosticist
Just like my old man.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Eric » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:24 pm

unjonharley wrote:Without the Aberhamic ravings.. Man would be 4-5000 years down the road of scientificly and intellectualy..
That's just bad history and a lack of understanding about the world.

Up until the last 100 years or so almost *all* scientific discovery was done by religious people (Charles Darwin; who ultimately called himself an agnostic, not an atheist; started his theory to explain the handiwork of god before having those very studies change his mind). Roman construction, Egyptian pyramids and the skills needed to make them, the uncounted brilliance of Chinese science for thousands of years (and almost unknown in the west), the mathematical & philosophic genius of the early Islamist period... all work done by people who believed in their god(s) deeply, all contributions to the development of modern science.

I'm not saying that Religious authorities didn't shut down studies they didn't like, but that's something all "Power" does- look at the atheist Soviet Union & their support of Lysenko's completely fraudulent theories for decades (even going so far as to outlaw work in Mendalian Inheritance, which is the accepted theory of how traits are passed down to offspring). Power only likes science that support Power, that is as true today (see: Oil Industry, Big Tobacco, Climate Science...) as it was under the Popes, the Caliphs, or the Pharaohs.

You would also be shocked to know that not all modern scientists are atheists, and some studies say up to 2/3 of them believe in god. Not the fundamentalist god posited a couple of pages back, but god none the less.

The assumption that one persons beliefs (atheistic or religious) are the beliefs that everyone should hold is utmost arrogance. Unless those beliefs cause a person to do harm to others, they are nobody elses business. I am opposed to extremist religion & extremist atheism for the same reasons- they all attempt to block out any form of thought but their own; they all mock others, condemn others, kill others for thinking differently; they all lead to intolerance & a closing of knowledge. Currently in our society the religious right is attempting to impose their beliefs on all of us, that is wrong & needs to be fought. I don't care what they do in church, I only care when they carry it into law. I would oppose atheists trying to codify their beliefs into law as well.

Honestly, almost every atheist I've heard sounds just as ignorant & intolerant as any religious bigot around. They're just too wrapped up in their own idea of superiority to know it. Dawkins' books on evolution hold a proud place in my library, his works on atheism sound like a whiny little brat shouting "I'm right, you're wrong, neener neener neener!!!"- they've been banished.

If you want to grab some actual understanding of religion in peoples lives you might want to read "Darwin's Cathedral" by David Sloan Wilson (who's "Evolution for Everybody" is one of the best books on evolution I've ever read. Hell, I re-read it almost every year)
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Eric » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:25 pm

Damn, that was a long-ass post from someone who wasn't going to post anymore in this thread.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:26 pm

Eric wrote:Damn, that was a long-ass post from someone who wasn't going to post anymore.
That trap. I fall into it all the time.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:44 pm

i told you there was proof.


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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:38 pm

[quote="Eric"] snip /quote]

Sorry but there were civilizations that had the math long before 5000 years ago.
Saddle light imagery has found dozons of pyramid under the sands of time..
Northern Ethiopia Shows signs of great river dams with movable gates..
All that engineering had disappeared before the four pyramids were built..
In the south America's there is evidence of a great civilization long before the pyramids were constructed there.. Where the knowledge of geology, astronomy and agriculture abound.. These things were all lost in the heap of Abrahamic Ravings. While coming out of the Edark ages the Catholic of Spain attacked and killed the natives of south America burning all written matter.. To this day all of that is still lost.. So mans need to control man has distroy as much as they have gained.. Almost all under the name of some unseen spirit.

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Eric » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:18 pm

unjonharley wrote:These things were all lost in the heap of Abrahamic Ravings.
Yes, but most of them where created under the belief of other "unseen spirits", and a lot of them were already long forgotten even in the Americas by the time of the European conquest and the devastation it caused. You're so focused on the Abrahamic religions that you forget that they're only one of hundreds of thousands of religions that have existed since man became man.

The assumption that the "problem" you see is only due to the Abrahamic religions is just as arrogantly Western as anything to come out of the Catholic church. Those aren't the only religions, there isn't only one way to believe.

To quote Albert Einstein, who is way smarter than I:
Albert Einstein* wrote:"You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

*source
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:02 pm

Eric wrote:
unjonharley wrote:These things were all lost in the heap of Abrahamic Ravings.
Yes, but most of them where created under the belief of other "unseen spirits", and a lot of them were already long forgotten even in the Americas by the time of the European conquest and the devastation it caused. You're so focused on the Abrahamic religions that you forget that they're only one of hundreds of thousands of religions that have existed since man became man.

The assumption that the "problem" you see is only due to the Abrahamic religions is just as arrogantly Western as anything to come out of the Catholic church. Those aren't the only religions, there isn't only one way to believe.
were taken over
To quote Albert Einstein, who is way smarter than I:
Albert Einstein* wrote:"You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

*source
I agree.. All religions are/have been designed by a few to control the many..
Man was much better off before becoming a herd animal..

The question is... Did man come down out of the trees and into herds by the intervention of beings from another world..

In WW2, South pacific islands were taken over and used for air strips.. Without so much as a I, yes or kiss my ass to the natives.. Some has never seen a white man before.. A lot of the supplies from the army's were shared with the natives.. Then with out a kiss, picked up and left.. A few years later some American's revisited some of the islands.. The natives were using or copying tools and knowledge left over from the GI's. The natives had layed out an open strip of land, lined by fire pots with a stilted hut.. They had figured out that great birds had brought supplies/stores.. To get these great bird-gods to land, The natives built a runway Fire pot landing lights and control tower..

Are the gods the humans are so hung up on, being from another world??

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by oneeyeddick » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:22 pm

this thread and the Jim Jones Kool-aid stand are about to get all fuzzy together
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Bob » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:58 pm

Eric wrote:....Honestly, almost every atheist I've heard sounds just as ignorant & intolerant as any religious bigot around. They're just too wrapped up in their own idea of superiority to know it. Dawkins' books on evolution hold a proud place in my library, his works on atheism sound like a whiny little brat shouting "I'm right, you're wrong, neener neener neener!!!"- they've been banished....
Maybe you're misreading people. I'm an equal opportunity atheist, in that I don't *care* about the question of God or spirituality in my own life, nor in others', except where the latter affects me or society. Dawkins and the late Hitchens are exemplars of "strong" atheism, to which I don't subscribe, because I don't fucking *care* unless you use religious or spiritual coercion to get in my pants, frame conditions for marriage, form public school curricula, twist publicly funded science, foment war, market fake medical services or products, erect monuments on public ground, etc.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:16 pm

not to mention da fac dat god don want no wimmin abortin no babies, miss scarlett.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Bob » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:49 pm

Falls under "stay out of my pants".


All of a sudden the Fertility theme is bugging me.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:58 pm

Bob wrote:Falls under "stay out of my pants".


All of a sudden the Fertility theme is bugging me.
The mentors seem to all end up crotch hounds..

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by ygmir » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:33 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Bob wrote:Falls under "stay out of my pants".


All of a sudden the Fertility theme is bugging me.
The mentors seem to all end up crotch hounds..
and the Mento's end up in diet Pepsi.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by JStep » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:52 pm

Ok, to address more than one post that are saying the same thing; The idea of a model is that we can agree on one unless one of us refuses to. We can reduce the model as far as you like. I think defining what you're talking about, your terms, is the first step in a conversation. We can still agree to disagree though. :)
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:23 pm

JStep wrote:Ok, to address more than one post that are saying the same thing; The idea of a model is that we can agree on one unless one of us refuses to. We can reduce the model as far as you like. I think defining what you're talking about, your terms, is the first step in a conversation. We can still agree to disagree though. :)
Do you mean to stop the 4000+ yr old tradition of kill the ones that don't believe in your god because you can't prove it exist??

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Ugly Dougly » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:34 pm

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name

In other words, if god exists, it doesn't care if we believe in it or not.

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by ygmir » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:48 pm

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Bob » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:35 am

Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by ygmir » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:42 am

Surely, if angels do exist, their earthly manifestation is that of furniture.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:43 am

ygmir wrote:Surely, if angels do exist, their earthly manifestation is that of furniture.
The bible speaks of angels (perfect man)(like ugly dougly) That came down from the sky.. They were screwing the little hairy ape like girls . They got call back to the mother ship for that.. But it was to late.. They had some of the chicks knocked up.. So some little bastards were hatched.. That cpuld have been about 300 000 years ago.. When cave men started writing on the walls..

Then Mo got a dose of radiation when he was called up the hill to get the ten commandments.. His hair was turned white and shinny skin.. 4=5000 years ago.

After that a couple of wars were intervened in.. With chariots in the sky that shot flaming spears and balls of fire..

Or the great epiphanies that come to man on both sides of the earth at the same times.. Such as the geometry it takes for building and surveying.. Or that true north was not the same as magnetic north.. All the pyramids are set on true north/south.. Let along to shave the top off and place 150 ton stones 1400 foot on a mountain.. Humans can no work that high..

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:26 pm

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by maryanimal » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:52 pm

I found this sight interesting...

http://ffrf.org/
Sometimes I'm confused by what I think is really obvious. But what I think is really obvious obviously isn't obvious.

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by JStep » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:56 pm

unjonharley wrote:
JStep wrote:Ok, to address more than one post that are saying the same thing; The idea of a model is that we can agree on one unless one of us refuses to. We can reduce the model as far as you like. I think defining what you're talking about, your terms, is the first step in a conversation. We can still agree to disagree though. :)
Do you mean to stop the 4000+ yr old tradition of kill the ones that don't believe in your god because you can't prove it exist??
No. I don't have a god, but this was just response to the messages that (more or less) agnostics aren't atheists, despite what the words mean, because theists don't agree on what god is.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Elderberry » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:18 pm

According to the National Academies, the figures cited in your survey are probably not correct. I didn't have a link to the articles anymore, but it seems that many scientist tend to lie when asked the 'do you believe' question. I'm sure that is the same for doctors too, though that is just my opinion.
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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by unjonharley » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:54 pm

jkisha wrote:According to the National Academies, the figures cited in your survey are probably not correct. I didn't have a link to the articles anymore, but it seems that many scientist tend to lie when asked the 'do you believe' question. I'm sure that is the same for doctors too, though that is just my opinion.
It's hard for me to believe that a man that deals in the logic of science can believe that an empty void has some thing in it. Even the ones that deal in string and fuzzy. Empty void being in faith in........................ :arrow:

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Re: An agnostic burner’s point of view

Post by Patsh » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:40 pm

ygmir wrote:Surely, if angels do exist, their earthly manifestation is that of furniture.


so, are you implying that Bob is an angel???
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