Scalping Discussion

[Nipple]

The STUBHUB user agreement refers to this type of item as a "SPECULATIVE TICKET ". (section 2.1a(III)
The good thing is that out of what is likely now over 20,000 tickets distributed, there are only 80 on Stubhub. That is under 0.5%.

Only 80 right now, yeah, but many have already sold. And there are MANY websites like it, some with a lot more than 80. And thousands on eBay, Craiglist, and other auction/classified sites. And offline as well.
As many as 5-10% of all 2012 Burning Man tickets could be scalped, and I bet you that every single one of them will end up in the hands of some eager Burner before the end of August. Some will have paid as much as $1000 or more for each ticket.
It's too early to be sure, but it's shaping up to be the best year for tickets scalpers in the history of the event.

It's not surprising that this is going to be the most scalped year of the event. Last year was the first ever sell-out. Suddenly there is a notion of scarcity where before for the last 25 years, there hasn't been. That opens the door to speculators. People looking to buy low and sell high.

That being said, Scalpers are at this point a boogey man. The reason you likely didn't get a ticket was because of your friends and neighbors overbuying tickets. This on the surface is sad and awful... but UNDER the surface... your friend and neighbor has likely prevented that ticket from making its way into a scalpers pocket.

I WILL CAVEAT: As long as your friends and neighbors use the STEP program, the ticket will find its way to you, before it is ever printed. If your friend and neighbor sells on CL at face value... it will likely be resold to another on of your friends and neighbors for much more.

[trilobyte]

Do understand that scalping tickets is legal in the state of Nevada, whose laws govern the event. While folks are welcome to discuss the issue, we can not have lynch mob threads, post personal information, links to ticket sales or auctions on other sites, or make personal attacks.

There will be a post coming with information regarding scalpers and scammers, likely coming within the week.

[Tanzremix]

What is there to discuss? This is a basic economics question, and its probably significantly harder to find someone who would rather stick by the traditional ideology and not go, rather than pay a scalper for a ticket. Unless STEP is flawless the real winners here are the scalpers.

[trilobyte]

Actually, the winner so far is the community. On an unrestricted open sale, scalpers could easily grab thousands upon thousands of the available tickets (which they do every day) and put them on sale via auction sites, ticket resale sites, and their own web sites. Hopefully those numbers stay low.

[Nipple]

What is there to discuss? This is a basic economics question, and its probably significantly harder to find someone who would rather stick by the traditional ideology and not go, rather than pay a scalper for a ticket. Unless STEP is flawless the real winners here are the scalpers.

On that note... I have seen in the threads about the STEP program mention of a restocking fee. That makes me a little nervous. I don't have full details, but I think any kin dof monetary penalty will turn people away from the program.

[randomgirl7]

Scalpers will crumble if we don't give in to their high prices. If they crumble hard this year -- they wouldn't touch this event with a ten foot pole next year! Let them sit for a few months holding these tickets that burners refuse to buy... they'll get desperate and drop any high prices.

[Tanzremix]

On that note... I have seen in the threads about the STEP program mention of a restocking fee. That makes me a little nervous. I don't have full details, but I think any kin dof monetary penalty will turn people away from the program.

For sure, you're definitely right. Look, if the spirit of things was adhered to in any great quantity we might not have had these lottery problems. Well, the proof is in the pudding, people registered their dead aunts and puppies for tickets in huge numbers, and clearly the guidance issued by the organizers wasn't enough to make a difference. So if the old rules seemingly no longer apply.....

Scalpers will crumble if we don't give in to their high prices. If they crumble hard this year -- they wouldn't touch this event with a ten foot pole next year! Let them sit for a few months holding these tickets that burners refuse to buy... they'll get desperate and drop any high prices.

You and I can talk about that all day, but clearly what you're saying doesn't matter to the masses. I'm not much for martyrdom myself, it just doesn't appeal to my self interest.

[A Jester]

On that note... I have seen in the threads about the STEP program mention of a restocking fee. That makes me a little nervous. I don't have full details, but I think any kin dof monetary penalty will turn people away from the program.

For sure, you're definitely right. Look, if the spirit of things was adhered to in any great quantity we might not have had these lottery problems. Well, the proof is in the pudding, people registered their dead aunts and puppies for tickets in huge numbers, and clearly the guidance issued by the organizers wasn't enough to make a difference. So if the old rules seemingly no longer apply.....

I'm not sure I agree with you. If there are more than 50k people who want to go we don't need to involve dead aunts or puppies.

Also, most people don't have credit cards for their puppies. So, the hoarding effect was most likely people who only need one ticket registering for two. Or couples each registering for two. Small scale hoarding like this doesn't seem nearly as evil when you're doing it, but can add up quickly.

I'm not exactly sure what the old or new rules are, but I'm not personally convinced that they have changed.

[Rintho]

I believe the StubHub Speculative Ticket refers to one not owned by the ticket seller. I believe at this point contracts for purchase and sale of tickets have been established between BMORG and the lucky winners. The winners own the tickets, even if they have not yet been delivered. In my non-legal opinion. If they are listing more tickets than have been awarded to their sellers, that's more like fraud.

On the other hand, say, pre-sale tickets are sold on eBay, with the understanding the buyer would not get them until the eBay seller physically received them in June. So money is exchanged for a promise. By the time June goes by, the eBay buyer will have passed the window for filing a complaint against the seller. If I'm not mistaken.

[Steel Kitty]

I think we all want to believe in the ideology of not buying a scalped ticket, but I know of one ticket buying service in Dallas who employs people to buy tickets with their own credit cards and will pay a finders fee and premium for doing so. The ticket service does this for every single game/event and Burning Man is no different.

It sucks, and I'm not happy about it, but I live in a world where my ideals clash with the way the world works. This is no different.

So, while some of you fall on the sword, and don't pay the scalpers, I have to weigh my options as I bring a huge camp out every year. I can't afford to dick around with the foolishness of going or not. So, caught between a rock and hard place, right?? Do I buy up one ticket here from that guy over there, and another from this person on CL?? Or just pay a service for the premium, and make sure I'm going?? Shit, who knows??

[theCryptofishist]

Scalpers will crumble if we don't give in to their high prices. If they crumble hard this year -- they wouldn't touch this event with a ten foot pole next year! Let them sit for a few months holding these tickets that burners refuse to buy... they'll get desperate and drop any high prices.

Indeed. The fight against scalping in this system is two-fold. First, the scrubbing of the entries. Second, the creation of the STEP. (Which takes away from scalpers by putting in a system that is cheaper and more reliable.) We won't really know how well they work until July or later, with more information coming a year from now when the run the next drawing.

I've not gone to the event. In 2010 I had to cancel when I was about to start loading my van. I survived. You will, too. There are other vacations. Just don't take a Mediterranean cruise.

[gibson_]

[quote="trilobyte"]Actually, the winner so far is the community.[/quote]

No, trilo, the winner here is most certainly not the community. It forced us to work against one another. That's how you *break* a community.

[Kenny Z]

I'm watching Stub Hub fill up as we speak. One scalper has a quantity of 8 that they are selling for $1500 a piece. Many with 4 for $1200. Oh here is another guy with 8 for $825 (now that sounds like a steal!). I would really like to stop scalpers, no matter how inconvenient! This is just the beginning! Posted this many months ago and also in a recent post on the Burning Man Facebook page:

"Why not assign tickets to a specific name? Yes you can buy tickets for other people but their name must be assigned to the ticket. But what if you or they can't go? Well you can return them back to Burning Man (less a small restocking fee). Then Burning Man can sell them to somebody else in the same fashion. THIS WAY ONLY BURNING MAN CAN SELL TICKETS! BURNERS 1, SCALPERS 0!" (It would also prevent what the lottery didn't, people scooping up extra tickets)

So somebody posted that the whole "assigning" thing was discussed thoroughly and shot down. Does anybody have an idea why? Is it because it's inconvenient? Well, folks, Burning Man as a whole is "inconvenient" From arrival to the stress of the Exodus. But it's worth it. And I am willing to put up with almost any inconvenience to give scalpers the big FU! I will bet that by the time this is done, THOUSANDS of tickets will be in the hands of scalpers. Folks, that's thousands of our brothers and sisters that won't be going and their places will be filled with douchebag spectators who are willing to support the scalpers and buy those tickets.

[alt12]

I'm watching Stub Hub fill up as we speak. One scalper has a quantity of 8 that they are selling for $1500 a piece. Many with 4 for $1200. Oh here is another guy with 8 for $825 (now that sounds like a steal!). I would really like to stop scalpers, no matter how inconvenient! This is just the beginning! Posted this many months ago and also in a recent post on the Burning Man Facebook page:

"Why not assign tickets to a specific name? Yes you can buy tickets for other people but their name must be assigned to the ticket. But what if you or they can't go? Well you can return them back to Burning Man (less a small restocking fee). Then Burning Man can sell them to somebody else in the same fashion. THIS WAY ONLY BURNING MAN CAN SELL TICKETS! BURNERS 1, SCALPERS 0!" (It would also prevent what the lottery didn't, people scooping up extra tickets)

So somebody posted that the whole "assigning" thing was discussed thoroughly and shot down. Does anybody have an idea why? Is it because it's inconvenient? Well, folks, Burning Man as a whole is "inconvenient" From arrival to the stress of the Exodus. But it's worth it. And I am willing to put up with almost any inconvenience to give scalpers the big FU! I will bet that by the time this is done, THOUSANDS of tickets will be in the hands of scalpers. Folks, that's thousands of our brothers and sisters that won't be going and their places will be filled with douchebag spectators who are willing to support the scalpers and buy those tickets.

My understand is that the thinking was that the added element of checking a ticket will significantly delay entrance at Gate to what is already a tremendously backed-up process....

[remi]

I disagree with that statement.. although, it would take more time to check tickets with names on it.. it wouldn't be that much longer. Have someone check everyones tickets, and match them to I.D's while the vehicle is getting searched. If you can't check 4 tickets and match them to 4 I.D's in the ammound of time it takes to search a vehicle, then there is some serious retarded mental problem with the person checking tickets.. and they should be replaced with someone that knows how to read.

EDIT: And a +/-6 hour wait at the gate is not that long. I've been to other festivals that have 12-15 hour waits at the gate. It's a good time to get ready, get pumped, meet new people. If the wait time at the gait goes up by one or two hours, if that's the only downfall for having a system that puts more tickets into the hands of true burners, I would gladly wait the extra couple hours.

[Kenny Z]

I disagree with that statement.. although, it would take more time to check tickets with names on it.. it wouldn't be that much longer. Have someone check everyones tickets, and match them to I.D's while the vehicle is getting searched. If you can't check 4 tickets and match them to 4 I.D's in the ammound of time it takes to search a vehicle, then there is some serious retarded mental problem with the person checking tickets.. and they should be replaced with someone that knows how to read.

EDIT: And a +/-6 hour wait at the gate is not that long. I've been to other festivals that have 12-15 hour waits at the gate. It's a good time to get ready, get pumped, meet new people. If the wait time at the gait goes up by one or two hours, if that's the only downfall for having a system that puts more tickets into the hands of true burners, I would gladly wait the extra couple hours.

Exactly! If delaying the entrance was the case, we could have the greeters speed things up! And when I go to concerts, Id's are checked in a matter of seconds. Besides, I would rather be delayed than to not be able to go to the event at all!

[theCryptofishist]

I disagree with that statement.. although, it would take more time to check tickets with names on it.. it wouldn't be that much longer. Have someone check everyones tickets, and match them to I.D's while the vehicle is getting searched. If you can't check 4 tickets and match them to 4 I.D's in the ammound of time it takes to search a vehicle, then there is some serious retarded mental problem with the person checking tickets.. and they should be replaced with someone that knows how to read.

EDIT: And a +/-6 hour wait at the gate is not that long. I've been to other festivals that have 12-15 hour waits at the gate. It's a good time to get ready, get pumped, meet new people. If the wait time at the gait goes up by one or two hours, if that's the only downfall for having a system that puts more tickets into the hands of true burners, I would gladly wait the extra couple hours.

Exactly! If delaying the entrance was the case, we could have the greeters speed things up! And when I go to concerts, Id's are checked in a matter of seconds. Besides, I would rather be delayed than to not be able to go to the event at all!

GAte is pretty much at its limit. If things get any slower, then they won't be able to prevent back up on 447 and nevada highways and BLM decrease the limit.

Either of you work gate? Because I trust the guys on here who do when they say that they are at their limits. More volunteers might mean speedier gate, although there are limits on the numbers of lanes we can have on the playa.

[ygmir]

yeah, checking ID's.......it's not like going to a concert:
vehicles have to be searched, if a vehicles has many participants within, they all have to get out, and hand their ticket over one at a time.......
Imagine the fun, of taking ID's and having to scan or whatever, each person. Then, search the vehicle, confirm the ticket is legit, listen to them bitch about how long they were in line, ask directions, ask where the food court is, almost run over you, because they are so stoned, or tired, they hardly know they're driving, they gotta piss, so do you mind if they piss in the shed floor, where you work, negotiating and telling them, that live chickens, in Styrofoam ice chests, with a shotgun strapped to it is not ok, and "no, I can't confiscate it, but, if you want to come in, you'll either have to surrender it, or go back and leave it somewhere else, and no matter how you beg, or offer oral sex, I just can't let you bring those things in, and, "is that an iguana".....awe crap.

I could go on........

[Nipple]

The most important question based on what you posted...

Gate gets offered oral sex?!

[Mofessor]

yeah, checking ID's.......it's not like going to a concert:
vehicles have to be searched, if a vehicles has many participants within, they all have to get out, and hand their ticket over one at a time.......
Imagine the fun, of taking ID's and having to scan or whatever, each person. Then, search the vehicle, confirm the ticket is legit, listen to them bitch about how long they were in line, ask directions, ask where the food court is, almost run over you, because they are so stoned, or tired, they hardly know they're driving, they gotta piss, so do you mind if they piss in the shed floor, where you work, negotiating and telling them, that live chickens, in Styrofoam ice chests, with a shotgun strapped to it is not ok, and "no, I can't confiscate it, but, if you want to come in, you'll either have to surrender it, or go back and leave it somewhere else, and no matter how you beg, or offer oral sex, I just can't let you bring those things in, and, "is that an iguana".....awe crap.

I could go on........

out of that long list only one thing would be different with names on tickets... checking the tickets against an ID.

Given what's happened today, I'm sure that solution is MUCH worse than fractured camps, art that isn't being created, plans that are in limbo, burners feeling angry and resentful to each other.

To quote you, "I could go on......"

[Mofessor]

Actually, the winner so far is the community. On an unrestricted open sale, scalpers could easily grab thousands upon thousands of the available tickets (which they do every day) and put them on sale via auction sites, ticket resale sites, and their own web sites. Hopefully those numbers stay low.

what a strange world you must live in that you can call today a "win" for the community. But given comments you made before all of this happened (a small, but representative sample):

The main sale is structured so that even if there's a stronger than usual increase in ticket demand, there should still be enough tickets to go around (trilobyte)

That's great that you and your friend are not only down with hoarding, but that you're in a spot where you can both tie up all that extra money until sometime in June (well the hoarding bit's not great). I don't see the rest of the Burning Man community being in that kind of situation, both from the paranoia standpoint and the financial standpoint. (trilobyte)

[fastsnail]

yeah, checking ID's.......it's not like going to a concert:
vehicles have to be searched, if a vehicles has many participants within, they all have to get out, and hand their ticket over one at a time.......
Imagine the fun, of taking ID's and having to scan or whatever, each person. Then, search the vehicle, confirm the ticket is legit, listen to them bitch about how long they were in line, ask directions, ask where the food court is, almost run over you, because they are so stoned, or tired, they hardly know they're driving, they gotta piss, so do you mind if they piss in the shed floor, where you work, negotiating and telling them, that live chickens, in Styrofoam ice chests, with a shotgun strapped to it is not ok, and "no, I can't confiscate it, but, if you want to come in, you'll either have to surrender it, or go back and leave it somewhere else, and no matter how you beg, or offer oral sex, I just can't let you bring those things in, and, "is that an iguana".....awe crap.

I could go on........

No need to ask for ID's if the ticket has a photo printed on it. You ask for ID only when in doubt (if the photo on ticket doesn't fit with the person in front of you). I don't see why it would be slower than last year procedure.

[5280MeV]

There might something to be said for simply printing names on tickets. You don't actually have to check them at the gate.

This would throw another monkey wrench in the secondary market - messing up the anonymity of the seller at sites like StubHub. You could allow the addition of names, but not changes.

Saying that you might check names at the gate would also potentially spook guaranteed sites like StubHub and screw with their terms of service.

I have been thinking about writing a letter of concern to StubHub concerning the dangers of the playa (120 degree heat, NO WATER PROVIDED) and telling them that they might seriously want to consult their house attorneys about potential liability from facilitating secondary sales to a potentially dangerous event.

Also, the current value of a ticket is less than $625 in the secure secondary market, using stubhub as a guide. I haven't seen the available tickets go down, so it is possible that no one has bought a single aftermarket ticket. No one can really say how well the anti-scalping measures have worked as there is no control to the experiment. It is interesting to watch.

[homo ardentum]

This is getting mainstream press. Just posted: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Burning-Man-Ticket-Exchange-Fights-Scalpers-138520004.html

[ymb]

the stubhub activity is making me think a lot of people who aren't even burners bought up tix just for this purpose.
someone has *8* tix for $1500 apiece.

kind of heartbreaking.

[Jackass]

"live chickens, in Styrofoam ice chests, with a shotgun strapped to it is not ok."

I would love to see this..

[fastsnail]

Damage control - What BM should do for 2012

1) notify by email people who got tickets from the lottery that,yes, for 2012, they will have to upload a photo and provide a name before february 12 to all the tickets
awarded. The date is near so scalpers will not have a lot of time to virtually sell non-physical tickets awarded.

2) setup now a "Upload your photo" page where people who were awarded tickets can go and edit the infos on their 1 or 2 awarded tickets before feb 12. After that, sorry no changes. blank entries will be automatically refunded. notify people that "no photo upload/no name provided" = ticket refunded

3) setup an admin web page for screening poor quality photos with a button near each photo that send an email to someone who uploaded a bad quality photo
telling them to reupload a good quality photo.

4) contact the tickets printer and tell them to redo tickets with a 2"X2" blank on one side of the ticket, so a photo and a name can be printed on it. (And a unique ticket ID to easy refunds by snail mail). And put the refund address on the ticket also. And put the message near the pic "If you are not the owner of this ticket, you will be refused at the gate".

5) setup a system that can print web-uploaded pics to tickets (the hard part but hey we are Silicon Valley dude, easy! )...ask the printer to do the initial batch of 60,000 tickets an be ready for monthly reprints...

6) tell the people who work at the gate: "everything is going to be fine. At first, DONT't ask for IDs. Just check if the pic on the ticket fits with the human face you have in front of you. In doubt (which should be rare...),
ask for ID to verify the name, and don't be picky with small typos in name,though). Everything's gonna be as fast as 2011, don't worry!"

7) On feb 12, massively refund all people who did not provide a name and a photo for the tickets they were awarded in the lottery. ( cat scalpers > /dev/null ).

8 ) On feb 13, Notify all people who registered on the lottery that the refunded tickets will be available soon

9) On feb 22, re-put on sale all the tickets refunded, asking for a name and uploaded pic along with the cc number. Provide a snail mail adress to refund tickets (Add a notice "BM will not do name-changing, just refunds blabla")

10) Once per week until august 27, BM will put on sale the tickets received by snail mail. (Yes procrastinators will have a chance to get a ticket even if they procrastinate until aug.27, so cool). After aug 13, no more shipping by snail mail.

11) profit.
12) drink a lot of water.

===

Now regarding the BM FAQ:

Answers to the FAQ:

Q1) "Tickets are purchased for giving away"
A1) No problem, there are chance that tickets will be available all the way through aug 27, so you will have a chance to buy some to give away. If you know now the recipient of your gift, upload their pic
and their name now. If you want to give a ticket to someone later, wait later, there are chance that refunded tickets will be available all the way through aug 27

Q2) "ensuring a project has coverage"
A2) see above

Q3) "Selling later to a friend in need"
A3) Tell your friend to upload his pic and pay

Q4) "The administrative cost of changing the name on every ticket exceeds our capacity"
A4) Hire on more person whose only job is to open the 30-40 envelopes containing refund demands per day, locate the unique ids of the tickets, and refund by clicking on an admin interface that also flag to resell on the web page.

Q5) "many of our fellow BRC citizens are uncomfortable with the notion of showing ID..."
A5) no need to show IDs, there are your photo on the ticket

Q6) "longer times at the Gate"
A6) tell the people who work at the gate: "everything is going to be fine. At first, don't ask for ID. Just check if the pic on the ticket fits with the human face you have in front of you. In doubt (which should be rare),
ask for ID to verify the name, and don't be picky with small typos in name,though). Everything's gonna be as fast as 2011, don't worry and drink a lot of water!"

[Kenny Z]

yeah, checking ID's.......it's not like going to a concert:
vehicles have to be searched, if a vehicles has many participants within, they all have to get out, and hand their ticket over one at a time.......
Imagine the fun, of taking ID's and having to scan or whatever, each person. Then, search the vehicle, confirm the ticket is legit, listen to them bitch about how long they were in line, ask directions, ask where the food court is, almost run over you, because they are so stoned, or tired, they hardly know they're driving, they gotta piss, so do you mind if they piss in the shed floor, where you work, negotiating and telling them, that live chickens, in Styrofoam ice chests, with a shotgun strapped to it is not ok, and "no, I can't confiscate it, but, if you want to come in, you'll either have to surrender it, or go back and leave it somewhere else, and no matter how you beg, or offer oral sex, I just can't let you bring those things in, and, "is that an iguana".....awe crap.

I could go on........

out of that long list only one thing would be different with names on tickets... checking the tickets against an ID.

Given what's happened today, I'm sure that solution is MUCH worse than fractured camps, art that isn't being created, plans that are in limbo, burners feeling angry and resentful to each other.

To quote you, "I could go on......"

Yep! I mean seriously, checking id's with a ticket takes a long time? How about an iPhone swipe on a sku? Barely anytime at all. If you want to speed things up, why can't we take out the whole rolling in the dirt and ringing the gong for the virgins (I think we will live without that). Then put those operators up front. Additionally, every time I have gone, I've never seen any sense of urgency. There is nothing wrong with that, volunteers don't get paid. However, I'm just pointing out that the line could move faster if push came to shove.

There is no perfect way. But if you want to get rid of scalpers and ticket hoarders, the only way I can think of is what I posted previously.

Lastly I'm sure there is a way to do a test run to see how much longer it would take for people to check id's. And I can almost guarantee it wouldn't put much of a crimp on things.

[socks]

May i point out last year you could by tickets until July.By this new system it has inflated the value of the tickets by making them harder to get.You have made a scalpers heaven.And with the sale in march you can bet the scalper bots will take all the tickests.