Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lottery!

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madmatt
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Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lottery!

Post by madmatt » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:37 pm

CONFESSION: when it was first proposed, I thought the lottery system sounded fair, and I trusted BMORG to make sure that it worked, and of course, everyone would end up getting their tickets. All my friends were freaking out, bitching about this terrible stupid idea. Calm down, I said, it will work out.

Well I was wrong ok? I apologize for trying to defend the lottery system that BMORG came up with, ok? I did it because I love BM and I have loved the BORG, warts and all, and loved some of the things they have done.

But i officially recant. The ticket lottery was a stupid, stupid idea, and you, Burning Man LLC, are stupid for doing it. You have sent a huge community of people, who are dedicated to concepts of positivity, into a frenzy of negativity.

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by oneeyeddick » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:39 pm

I take it you didn't win?
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by SaritaSyrah » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:40 pm

Nobody is stupid, love!

They tried something that didn't work out, give them a break. Everybody makes mistakes, and on paper it sounds like a good idea. Like communism. Nobody says "Oh, yeah...that will screw everybody over. Lets do that!!"

:D I love you, I'm sorry you're upset. Don't give up, keep your feelers out. You'll get a ticket.
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by madmatt » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:42 pm

No, I did win. I decided I didnt want to risk it at all, so I went for the most expensive tier. But 2/3 of my friends did not. That's worse.

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by oneeyeddick » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:45 pm

But 90% of those 2/3 will get tickets if they apply themselves like jelly.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by SaritaSyrah » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:51 pm

That means 1/3 of your friends DID!

Not to point fingers, but that's better than most people did. Maybe provide some support for them instead of pouting. Its not all about you, you know.

I'm a birgin, so maybe I have the wrong idea. But it's a community...not just a place for your friends to go. And maybe I'm disillusioned because I have a ticket, but I'd like to think the the BM community is strong enough to get through this without all of the "woe is me" nonsense.
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:20 am

SaritaSyrah wrote:That means 1/3 of your friends DID! ]but I'd like to think the the BM community is strong enough to get through this without all of the "woe is me" nonsense.

100% of my camp didn't get tickets. This is, like, our fifth year. Normally, at this time, 100% of my camp would have their tickets because they wanted to go enough that they got their shit together and got it done.

Now, we have a camp planning meeting and nobody actually has tickets. You claim to a virgin, and you're talking about how strong the BM community is.

Last time, I spent $1000 and countless hours on an art car and the DMV decided that I couldn't even -not- drive the motherfucker in the street. Whatever. We still had all the absinthe I made, all the root beer my friend made, the little saloon and tables and chairs we set up for people to use, we made our art and brought our gifts and my mutant vehicle--which was 100% scratch built on top of wooden wagon wheels and had a max speed of about 2--never left camp. *cough*

So here I am trying to determine whether it's worth spending another thousand, distilling x-dozen gallons of absinthe @ $150/gallon, and there are ticket-holding virgin burners out here talking about "'woe is me' nonsense" like it's just that fucking simple.

It's not about the money, or whether if we "really want to go, we'll get a ticket." It's about the fact that no matter how together our shit is or how LNT our camp has always been recognized as, and no matter how much effort we put in, NONE--ZERO OUT OF TWENTY--OF US has tickets yet. Not even our virgin burners, whom we finally convinced to come with us.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to dismiss this as "nonsense." If you like root beer or chilled absinthe drinks in the heat of the day, you might be fucked this year 'cause we're not sure it's worth it if there's this much bullshit and chaos involved just to give them hundreds of dollars to come to the damned thing.
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by karma_cat » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:24 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
SaritaSyrah wrote:That means 1/3 of your friends DID! ]but I'd like to think the the BM community is strong enough to get through this without all of the "woe is me" nonsense.

100% of my camp didn't get tickets. This is, like, our fifth year. Normally, at this time, 100% of my camp would have their tickets because they wanted to go enough that they got their shit together and got it done.

Now, we have a camp planning meeting and nobody actually has tickets. You claim to a virgin, and you're talking about how strong the BM community is.

Last time, I spent $1000 and countless hours on an art car and the DMV decided that I couldn't even -not- drive the motherfucker in the street. Whatever. We still had all the absinthe I made, all the root beer my friend made, the little saloon and tables and chairs we set up for people to use, we made our art and brought our gifts and my mutant vehicle--which was 100% scratch built on top of wooden wagon wheels and had a max speed of about 2--never left camp. *cough*

So here I am trying to determine whether it's worth spending another thousand, distilling x-dozen gallons of absinthe @ $150/gallon, and there are ticket-holding virgin burners out here talking about "'woe is me' nonsense" like it's just that fucking simple.

It's not about the money, or whether if we "really want to go, we'll get a ticket." It's about the fact that no matter how together our shit is or how LNT our camp has always been recognized as, and no matter how much effort we put in, NONE--ZERO OUT OF TWENTY--OF US has tickets yet. Not even our virgin burners, whom we finally convinced to come with us.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to dismiss this as "nonsense." If you like root beer or chilled absinthe drinks in the heat of the day, you might be fucked this year 'cause we're not sure it's worth it if there's this much bullshit and chaos involved just to give them hundreds of dollars to come to the damned thing.
Hey Zaphod,

So sorry to hear your camp didn't get tickets. I feel for you. We had a big camp planned too and already spent quite a bit of $$$ on it too ... only to find out that not nearly enough of us got tickets, and now we don't have any choice but to cancel it.

I'm not one of those people who think veterans 'deserve' tickets more than virgins, because we all were virgins at one time or another, but I do worry about the effect this will have on camps of all sizes who add so much to the event.

I do think that BMORG tried to do the right thing, but got a nasty case of group-think, and subsequently refused to listen to anyone who was telling them how terrible the design of the lottery was. I really don't understand how so many people are still defending this debacle and refusing to admit that it could easily be changed for the better, but I guess we all see things differently.

At this point I'm giving my ticket to a virgin from our camp (hopefully I can find another), and I just hope that the burn goes well and is as amazing for the people who do go as it has always been for me.

I always said that Burning Man was an amazing thing and that only at this particular moment in history could something like it exist. Hopefully that moment will last a bit longer ... and hopefully we can all find a way to go back home.

-Karma_cat

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:18 am

karma_cat wrote: So sorry to hear your camp didn't get tickets. I feel for you. We had a big camp planned too and already spent quite a bit of $$$ on it too ... only to find out that not nearly enough of us got tickets, and now we don't have any choice but to cancel it.

I'm not one of those people who think veterans 'deserve' tickets more than virgins, because we all were virgins at one time or another, but I do worry about the effect this will have on camps of all sizes who add so much to the event.
Yikes. I agree with you.

In our case, we could have included a list of names of people committed to our camp who had ALSO entered the lottery, some of which are virgins--which is fine--but all of whom are planning to participate instead of just show up and party.

I too agree the BMorg tried to do the right thing. Regardless, the tickets went to scalpers. It burns me up hearing some people out here (who, of course, GOT tickets) telling us, well, if we want to go (entertain them) badly enough, we'll find tickets even if we have to buy them from scalpers. As if being lucky enough to win the lottery means they were willing to "try harder" to get tickets than everybody in my camp.
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by SaritaSyrah » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:54 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
SaritaSyrah wrote:That means 1/3 of your friends DID! ]but I'd like to think the the BM community is strong enough to get through this without all of the "woe is me" nonsense.

100% of my camp didn't get tickets. This is, like, our fifth year. Normally, at this time, 100% of my camp would have their tickets because they wanted to go enough that they got their shit together and got it done.

Now, we have a camp planning meeting and nobody actually has tickets. You claim to a virgin, and you're talking about how strong the BM community is.

Last time, I spent $1000 and countless hours on an art car and the DMV decided that I couldn't even -not- drive the motherfucker in the street. Whatever. We still had all the absinthe I made, all the root beer my friend made, the little saloon and tables and chairs we set up for people to use, we made our art and brought our gifts and my mutant vehicle--which was 100% scratch built on top of wooden wagon wheels and had a max speed of about 2--never left camp. *cough*

So here I am trying to determine whether it's worth spending another thousand, distilling x-dozen gallons of absinthe @ $150/gallon, and there are ticket-holding virgin burners out here talking about "'woe is me' nonsense" like it's just that fucking simple.

It's not about the money, or whether if we "really want to go, we'll get a ticket." It's about the fact that no matter how together our shit is or how LNT our camp has always been recognized as, and no matter how much effort we put in, NONE--ZERO OUT OF TWENTY--OF US has tickets yet. Not even our virgin burners, whom we finally convinced to come with us.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to dismiss this as "nonsense." If you like root beer or chilled absinthe drinks in the heat of the day, you might be fucked this year 'cause we're not sure it's worth it if there's this much bullshit and chaos involved just to give them hundreds of dollars to come to the damned thing.

Oh, honey love, Im so sorry that not of your camp got tickets in the raffle. I know thats hard. You cut out the most important part of the quote, though, that other camps are worse off than the camp that got 1/3 of their folks tickets. (That would be YOU, by the way, that is worse off.) I'd appreciate it if you didnt attack me, personally, for trying to have a positive outlook.

I am sure your root beer and absinthe is delicious, and refreshing, and all around magical, but it's not the only magical thing on the playa.

I don't think you're talking nonsense at all, I think you're discouraged and frustrated and just downright angry. I just feel like, as a virgin, I can contribute by not being negative and trying to encourage people who didnt get tickets. I'm discouraged, too. So far 17 people in the camp i'm staying in dont have tickets, and the list is growing with each hour. I am worried, too that there wont be enough vets out there to provide the community that us lowly virgins dont know how to provide just yet. This year is different than previous years, and I am FINALLY in a place in my life that I can go...and by golly I've got the golden ticket. I'll be happy about it whether your rootbeer/absinthe is there or not...but really, really, it would be nice if you were there. I'd like to give you a big hug and I am so sorry for having offended you.
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by JayBobBoy » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:46 am

Sarita you have a good heart, but I think your timing is off.

Let the folks vent for a while. While you heart is in the right place, all of us older veteran burners just see you as a young dancing sparkle pony with a ticket telling us to relax and everything will be ok. It tends to aggravate us further. I know that's probably not the case, but it is the perception.

I hope what you are saying is true...and everything does work out. I really have my doubts...I need 3 tickets and I'm feeling pretty screwed right now.

For what it's worth...
"It is all very beautiful and magical here - a quality which cannot be described. You have to live it and breath it., let the sun bake it into you" - Ansel Adams

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by lemur » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:04 am

JayBobBoy wrote:Sarita you have a good heart, but I think your timing is off.

Let the folks vent for a while. While you heart is in the right place, all of us older veteran burners just see you as a young dancing sparkle pony with a ticket telling us to relax and everything will be ok. It tends to aggravate us further. I know that's probably not the case, but it is the perception.

I hope what you are saying is true...and everything does work out. I really have my doubts...I need 3 tickets and I'm feeling pretty screwed right now.

For what it's worth...

for what its worth.. that might not even be her in the avatar


and if it is her.. youre clearly foolish for judging her based upon it!!!
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by JayBobBoy » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:06 am

I just call it like I see it...and I suppose it is foolish.

Oh well...
"It is all very beautiful and magical here - a quality which cannot be described. You have to live it and breath it., let the sun bake it into you" - Ansel Adams

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by SaritaSyrah » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:08 am

JayBobBoy wrote:Sarita you have a good heart, but I think your timing is off.

Let the folks vent for a while. While you heart is in the right place, all of us older veteran burners just see you as a young dancing sparkle pony with a ticket telling us to relax and everything will be ok. It tends to aggravate us further. I know that's probably not the case, but it is the perception.

I hope what you are saying is true...and everything does work out. I really have my doubts...I need 3 tickets and I'm feeling pretty screwed right now.

For what it's worth...

Thanks. Shutting up.

:)

and that is me. I'm a jump-for-joy-er. But I'd like to think I'm no sparkle pony. I can handle myself, thank you. (ooooooh something shiny!)
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by tamarakay » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:02 am

SaritaSyrah wrote:
JayBobBoy wrote:Sarita you have a good heart, but I think your timing is off.

Let the folks vent for a while. While you heart is in the right place, all of us older veteran burners just see you as a young dancing sparkle pony with a ticket telling us to relax and everything will be ok. It tends to aggravate us further. I know that's probably not the case, but it is the perception.

I hope what you are saying is true...and everything does work out. I really have my doubts...I need 3 tickets and I'm feeling pretty screwed right now.

For what it's worth...

Thanks. Shutting up.

:)

and that is me. I'm a jump-for-joy-er. But I'd like to think I'm no sparkle pony. I can handle myself, thank you. (ooooooh something shiny!)
Yep, that's her. I can confirm that as I birthed her.

And I can confirm that she is not a sparkle pony. She is much sparklier than a sparkle pony and a pretty darned self sufficient smartypants.

It's really funny when people under estimate her cause she is pretty. Like you can't have brains AND be pretty. Then (when necessary) she will cut their balls off. However you are correct, she has a big heart so she'll usually just leave a flesh wound as a lesson. :shock:
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Getting overly dramatic about the ticket sale process is so 2012. - Maladroit


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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by lemur » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:04 am

quick!! change avatars to a huge musckly kick boxer!!!
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by alt12 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:26 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
100% of my camp didn't get tickets. This is, like, our fifth year. Normally, at this time, 100% of my camp would have their tickets because they wanted to go enough that they got their shit together and got it done.

Now, we have a camp planning meeting and nobody actually has tickets. You claim to a virgin, and you're talking about how strong the BM community is.

Last time, I spent $1000 and countless hours on an art car and the DMV decided that I couldn't even -not- drive the motherfucker in the street. Whatever. We still had all the absinthe I made, all the root beer my friend made, the little saloon and tables and chairs we set up for people to use, we made our art and brought our gifts and my mutant vehicle--which was 100% scratch built on top of wooden wagon wheels and had a max speed of about 2--never left camp. *cough*

So here I am trying to determine whether it's worth spending another thousand, distilling x-dozen gallons of absinthe @ $150/gallon, and there are ticket-holding virgin burners out here talking about "'woe is me' nonsense" like it's just that fucking simple.

It's not about the money, or whether if we "really want to go, we'll get a ticket." It's about the fact that no matter how together our shit is or how LNT our camp has always been recognized as, and no matter how much effort we put in, NONE--ZERO OUT OF TWENTY--OF US has tickets yet. Not even our virgin burners, whom we finally convinced to come with us.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to dismiss this as "nonsense." If you like root beer or chilled absinthe drinks in the heat of the day, you might be fucked this year 'cause we're not sure it's worth it if there's this much bullshit and chaos involved just to give them hundreds of dollars to come to the damned thing.

Get a grip dude.... Its not over yet. I find it very hard to believe that a camp that has gone through the travails of an art-car and has attended BM 5 times can't tolerate waiting 2 months to find out if they get tickets....

I hate this lottery and this process too and find it infinitely worse than the old system but I recognize that its not over yet. Most of our camp (myself included) were not awarded tickets in the lottery. Yes it puts a damper on things and may delay some planning but no one is jumping to the conclusion that our camp won't be there this year.

The reality at hand is this is going to take a lot longer than it did last year. That sucks. But it is too soon to tell how this will play out so while understandable to vent and worry it is premature to conclusively call it a day....


By the way if you're already calling it a day, how the hell are you going to handle it when a dust-storm wipes out all your structures mid-week... Or when one of your trailers turns-over on 446 sending one of your campmates to the hospital and permanently wrecking your primary shade structure, or when 5 of your campmates get arrested by LEO for drugs, etc. etc. etc. you get the picture....


PS - The tone and content of your comment can best be summed up by the worlds "entitlement" and "privilege."

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by playa hanjin » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:51 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote: I'm sorry if you feel the need to dismiss this as "nonsense." If you like root beer or chilled absinthe drinks in the heat of the day, you might be fucked this year 'cause we're not sure it's worth it if there's this much bullshit and chaos involved just to give them hundreds of dollars to come to the damned thing.
What Zaphod said.

The BMORG is sticking a big stick in the eye of the people that plan. I wonder if maybe this was deliberate, meant to "turn over" some contingent of the community that is getting "too established".

I know it's twisted logic. I just can't figure out how else it makes sense.

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by Brenda » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:41 pm

Radical inclusion. It's RADICAL. Welcome home. Not just YOU, EVERYONE. What do the disgruntled suggest that is more fair, more reflective of burner values? A jury of peers deciding who is worthy? Who has enough years? Who will contribute enough? Who has the right attitude? I think the lottery is the only way to go. We all won't be happy every year but things change. It sucks but its also life. I support the lottery decision still. I didn't get tickets but I know someone who did who wants to bring me! yay! There are TONS of people who talk about wanting to go but still can't get their shit together to go. There will be more tickets around, but yes, not for everyone. The very idea of burning man is so challenging it makes me giggle, it doesn't get easier I don't think

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by JStep » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:32 pm

Brenda wrote:Radical inclusion. It's RADICAL. Welcome home. Not just YOU, EVERYONE. What do the disgruntled suggest that is more fair, more reflective of burner values?

I'll see your Radical inclusion and raise you one Radical self reliance.

If you weren't prepared enough, didn't think ahead enough, why should those who did do these radically self reliant things suffer to make things "more fair" for *you*?

What's next? We all have to bring plastic party cups to make things "more fair" for those who didn't bring one, so we can be Radically inclusive?

Shit, I was moving on and forgot, lol.


Moving on...
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by madmatt » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:10 pm

If the max capacity of Burning Man, because of the BLM permits, traffic capacity of surrounding highways, etc is...say...65,000 (10,000 more than we have had)...There STILL is more demand than you can fit there, so something's gotta give.

Anyone who has taken Economics 101 knows that if you raise or lower price or amount available (the supply), it has a direct effect on demand (how many people want to go). By its very nature, the market will find its equilibrium, and it will try to set the price at that level.

If you wanted supply to equal demand, you can: 1. Increase the supply, or the number of people who can go (ie, sell more tickets, or split up into more than one event. For example, have more than one Burning Man, either multiple times a year, or in multiple places).

2. Decrease the demand, or the number of people who want to go. You do this by making annoying obstacles (ticket lottery, registration, etc.) or by raising prices. The BORG was tried and failed to "beat the system" of supply and demand.

If the ticket prices were high enough, there would be no profit motivation for scalpers to re-sell tickets at a higher price. If demand is so high, then the price of tickets is, according to economic theory, too low.

This does not solve our current problem, I know. I think BORG made a big mistake, but I do think that they were trying to shake things up because of the event selling out last year, when lots of people didn't get to go.

I also think they want to shake things up, and if you look at the themes over the last 4 years or so, and the increasing focus on the regionals, they want to push the BM community to expand out into the wider world and do more if this on their own (Fertility 2.0 theme....no coincidence)

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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by Elderberry » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:59 pm

Your post comes closest to the answer. The price of tickets needs to be raised as high as necessary to reduce demand to the numbers the permit will allow.
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Re: Confession: I'm sorry I defended the stupid ticket lotte

Post by crstophr » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:23 pm

[quote="jkisha"]Your post comes closest to the answer. The price of tickets needs to be raised as high as necessary to reduce demand to the numbers the permit will allow.[/quote]

The scalper market will effectively do this anyway.... the difference is where the extra money ends up.

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