Go-Peds/Scooters/Pocket Bikes

Bikes, trikes, personal mobility and getting to/from the event - this is the place to discuss general transportation issues.
Lysergic
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Go-Peds/Scooters/Pocket Bikes

Post by Lysergic » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:11 am

I read up on the DMV requirements for art cars and other vehicles, and was wondering if scooters 'are' allowed, what about pocket-bikes, you know those mini-motorcycles with a 50cc or less? I heard from someone that anything under 50cc is allowed, but is this true? If pocket-bikes 'are not' allowed then I guess I'll just have to make it a mobile mini art exhibit.

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vulgaris
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Post by vulgaris » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:56 am

As far as the actual "rules" go I believe all stand-up gopeds are allowed, but as soon as you put some kind of seat on it it has to follow those rules?

If it was a piece of mobile art I would assume you would treat it as an art car?

Personally I hate them all. They smell.

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Post by Fat SAM » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:19 am

It seemed like even bikes make you pass by all the good stuff too quickly. By the end of the week we were only using our bikes for long trips. Otherwise it was all walking. You just miss too much when you go zipping by.
Thanks to Addis, I had more free time.

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unjonharley
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Re: Go-Peds/Scooters/Pocket Bikes

Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:15 am

Lysergic wrote:I read up on the DMV requirements for art cars and other vehicles, and was wondering if scooters 'are' allowed, what about pocket-bikes, you know those mini-motorcycles with a 50cc or less? I heard from someone that anything under 50cc is allowed, but is this true? If pocket-bikes 'are not' allowed then I guess I'll just have to make it a mobile mini art exhibit.

Peace
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Show us your arty side. It has to be better than some of the stuff I have seem. 5mph. is a good speed to see every thing and yoou can stop and talk to people.
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Post by Hotspur » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:19 pm

A good thing to remember is that everything motorized (no matter how small the motor!) has to stick to the 5mph speed limit, even those little stand-up scooters.

They will impound you, otherwise.

Wendor
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Re: Go-Peds/Scooters/Pocket Bikes

Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:31 pm

Lysergic wrote:I read up on the DMV requirements for art cars and other vehicles, and was wondering if scooters 'are' allowed, what about pocket-bikes, you know those mini-motorcycles with a 50cc or less? I heard from someone that anything under 50cc is allowed, but is this true? If pocket-bikes 'are not' allowed then I guess I'll just have to make it a mobile mini art exhibit.
Pocket bikes are not allowed. There is no exemption for motors less than 50cc. (I've seen that one posted as well and have no idea where it came from either)

The actual rules are pretty straightforward:
http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/ ... iving.html
but even so the simple plain language version has been basically "If it has a motor and a seat it falls under the DMV requirements."

I'd love to see your ideas for making one into a mutant vehicle though. I have a lot of trouble picturing one made into a "mobile mini art exhibit" that would meet the mutant vehicle requirements.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:46 pm

The 50cc rule seemed to appear on-Playa this year. We had several people in our camp attempt to get sit-down scooters in. Those under 50cc's were allowed to bring them in and use them (grrr!). Those over 50cc's were impounded (yeah!). Plenty of pocket bikes, etc I saw, they all claimed the were "exempt" when I gave them a ration. YMMV. Go figure.

The only possible use I see for the standup scooters is when you are prairie doggen' bad and do not want to risk walking or biking to JOTS. Of course, then again this is just another quick fix for not taking care of business.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:47 pm

The 50cc rule seemed to appear on-Playa this year. We had several people in our camp attempt to get sit-down scooters in. Those under 50cc's were allowed to bring them in and use them (grrr!). Those over 50cc's were impounded (yeah!). Plenty of pocket bikes, etc I saw, they all claimed the were "exempt" when I gave them a ration. YMMV. Go figure.

The only possible use I see for the standup scooters is when you are prairie doggen' bad and do not want to risk walking or biking to JOTS. Of course, then again, this is just another quick fix for not taking care of ones business appropriately.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:57 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:The only possible use I see for the standup scooters is when you are prairie doggen' bad and do not want to risk walking or biking to JOTS. Of course, then again, this is just another quick fix for not taking care of ones business appropriately.
Please remember Technopatra's bad ankle--the only way she can get around the playa is on a scooter. Unless you want her to get on something bigger. . .

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:00 pm

I actually wondered about the Pocket Motorcycles pre-event, but Badger said they were illegal. I imagenged them as a big head ache--able to go faster than pursuing Rangers, yet small enough to hide. I"ve heard some stories of bad actors on various sorts of motors and these seemed to have yahoo written all over them.

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Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:15 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:The 50cc rule seemed to appear on-Playa this year. We had several people in our camp attempt to get sit-down scooters in. Those under 50cc's were allowed to bring them in and use them (grrr!). Those over 50cc's were impounded (yeah!). Plenty of pocket bikes, etc I saw, they all claimed the were "exempt" when I gave them a ration. YMMV. Go figure.
If the gate allowed the ones under 50cc's in, then the gate made a mistake. There was *NO* motor vehicle exemption for motors under 50cc's so anyone who claimed they were "exempt" lied to you plain and simple.

The link I gave was to the actual crieria used for 2004. Please note that there is *NO* exemption based on motor size.

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Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:55 pm

The DMV took a bath this year. The gate was not conected so all sorts of shit sliped through. Then every whiny f wad with a disable PARKING card come pouring in with $3000 atv. Some of the profoud disabled felt they were taken advantage of by this. I have a state approved sticker aplied to both of my scooters. I payed for it with 30 years of pain. Now I hope to work with DMV to fix rhis problem.
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Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:28 pm

unjonharley wrote:Then every whiny f wad with a disable PARKING card come pouring in with $3000 atv. Some of the profoud disabled felt they were taken advantage of by this. I have a state approved sticker aplied to both of my scooters. I payed for it with 30 years of pain. Now I hope to work with DMV to fix rhis problem.
Not sure there is anything that can be done to change it. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) does not differentiate between "whiny f wad" disabled persons and "the profound disabled" as you define them. Businesses (including the Burning Man LLC) are required to treat anyone with a disability equally. They are prevented by law from making value judgements as to who they consider "really disabled".

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Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:41 pm

Wendor wrote:
unjonharley wrote:Then every whiny f wad with a disable PARKING card come pouring in with $3000 atv. Some of the profoud disabled felt they were taken advantage of by this. I have a state approved sticker aplied to both of my scooters. I payed for it with 30 years of pain. Now I hope to work with DMV to fix rhis problem.
Not sure there is anything that can be done to change it. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) does not differentiate between "whiny f wad" disabled persons and "the profound disabled" as you define them. Businesses (including the Burning Man LLC) are required to treat anyone with a disability equally. They are prevented by law from making value judgements as to who they consider "really disabled".


Not saying all can be fixed. But they can clean out the disabled tags from drunken party barges. Getting a sticker and letting every one in camp dive behind the sticker. Driving with aunt polly's sticker when she is not even in camp. Check the divers lic and the tag no match no drive. And more i"ll not say. why? for a suprise.
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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:42 pm

Wendor wrote: Businesses (including the Burning Man LLC) are required to treat anyone with a disability equally. They are prevented by law from making value judgements as to who they consider "really disabled".
Depends on exactly the relationship between the business and the disabled person. No whiney fwad can expect a show up and take up chair space job.






('cept wrecks, of course)

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Post by Icepack » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:59 pm

I saw and heard a lot of scooters and such that did not have stickers on them and yet were being used to zip back and forth to Center Camp for ice and other things.

I don't understand the rules either. Seems like some of the quiet electric things were banned and some of the noisy stand up scooters were allowed. Doesn't seem fair.

Hope to see the rules continue to be revised.
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Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:15 pm

Icepack wrote:I saw and heard a lot of scooters and such that did not have stickers on them and yet were being used to zip back and forth to Center Camp for ice and other things.

I don't understand the rules either. Seems like some of the quiet electric things were banned and some of the noisy stand up scooters were allowed. Doesn't seem fair.

Hope to see the rules continue to be revised.
/\
Most of these scooters and such were running without a DMV tag. They figure on the odds of getting caught are on there side. If you get cought, you are told to take the scooter to your camp. Your expected not to drive it again. So they just wait until that ranger is off duty. Or like the guy I wathced. He drove to center camp for ice. He would carry two large bags of ice with 5-6 small bags inside. We are talking about 10x7lb. He loaded at least 8 packs was out any effort.
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Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:48 pm

unjonharley wrote:Not saying all can be fixed. But they can clean out the disabled tags from drunken party barges.
Not sure what you mean by this as no "party barges" got handicapped licenses from the DMV at all.

unjonharley wrote:Getting a sticker and letting every one in camp dive behind the sticker.
Again, not sure where you're going with this either. The name of the disabled person was written directly on the sticker and we recommended that the disabled person keep their ID with them because LE was checking if the person named on the sticker was in the vehicle. We can't restrict (and wouldn't want to) who else can be in the vehicle along with the disabled person.

unjonharley wrote:Driving with aunt polly's sticker when she is not even in camp. Check the divers lic and the tag no match no drive.
Again, you've got me lost. Standard disabled parking placards do *NOT* have your name, driver's license number or any other personally identifying information on them except a serial number that we can't match to a person because the only link is in the state motor vehicle registration computer. We can track the serial numbers we have seen in order to ensure that we don't get shown the same placard by mutiple different people, but we can't verify that the placard was issued to the person who shows it to us.

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Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:53 pm

Icepack wrote:I don't understand the rules either. Seems like some of the quiet electric things were banned and some of the noisy stand up scooters were allowed. Doesn't seem fair.
Simple version is that a line had to be drawn somewhere. The line that was chosen was whether the scooter had a seat or not rather than by motor type. Pretty arbitrary actually, but no matter what line you choose someone isn't going to like it. Maybe it'll get changed to "one person, stand up, electric" only or maybe to "no scooters at all" or maybe it'll stay the same again...hard to say what the future will bring. Contact the org and voice your opinion.

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Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:56 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Depends on exactly the relationship between the business and the disabled person. No whiney fwad can expect a show up and take up chair space job.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say was that businesses don't get to say "We'll make allowances for his disability becase he's "really disabled" but not for you because we don't think your disability is important". Individual businesses don't get to decide that some disabled persons aren't "really disabled".

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Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:24 pm

Wendor wrote:
unjonharley wrote:Not saying all can be fixed. But they can clean out the disabled tags from drunken party barges.
Not sure what you mean by this as no "party barges" got handicapped licenses from the DMV at all.

unjonharley wrote:Getting a sticker and letting every one in camp dive behind the sticker.
Again, not sure where you're going with this either. The name of the disabled person was written directly on the sticker and we recommended that the disabled person keep their ID with them because LE was checking if the person named on the sticker was in the vehicle. We can't restrict (and wouldn't want to) who else can be in the vehicle along with the disabled person.

unjonharley wrote:Driving with aunt polly's sticker when she is not even in camp. Check the divers lic and the tag no match no drive.
Again, you've got me lost. Standard disabled parking placards do *NOT* have your name, driver's license number or any other personally identifying information on them except a serial number that we can't match to a person because the only link is in the state motor vehicle registration computer. We can track the serial numbers we have seen in order to ensure that we don't get shown the same placard by mutiple different people, but we can't verify that the placard was issued to the person who shows it to us.


In the first two, It is some things I wittnessed myself along with others.
There was one passenger barge that was dedicated to carry disabled. I do suspect the party barge was a fraud. Or the had a disable and tranferred it. Also saw a paper DMV sticker go flying by me on a motor sofa. Buddyed up to a couple of rigs with no DMV tag. The general additued was:"fuck the dmv". But then there was a lot of that.

AS for people rideing along. Some profound disable need "a" help person. Like the guy driving a golf cart with a wheel chair straped on the back. I could see he was the help person for the lady rideing with him. can also see a S.O. maybe with a kid wanting to travel togeather. But you sure as hell don,t need a four passenger ATV pulling a trailor load of drunks.
As for id matching, My drivers lic# "is" on all of my disabled placard and scooters stickers. (I build different sooters and try out new ideas) Trying to get the best one for later on in life. Persons that are unable to drive are given a dmv id. Hope to check with other states. I do need some cross talk from a board like e playa
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Post by Wendor » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:02 pm

unjonharley wrote:As for id matching, My drivers lic# "is" on all of my disabled placard and scooters stickers. (I build different sooters and try out new ideas) Trying to get the best one for later on in life. Persons that are unable to drive are given a dmv id. Hope to check with other states. I do need some cross talk from a board like e playa
There is a standard agreed upon for all 50 states for disabled parking placards.....it does not include the drivers license number unfortuantely. If yours have them then it is something extra they have added locally. Nor do most states issue ID cards that indicate whether or not the person is disabled or require that a state ID be issued in connection with a handicapped parking placard. Most states connect them to the vehicle registration, not the drivers license.

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Post by unjonharley » Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:43 am

WEnder, don't know where your info is from. Your wrong in most of it. The IDs are given upon request fom dmv. This is for reason of theft of the card. This has become a large problem. There is a location on the card to put drive lic# the expire is punched along the boarder. Others have lic. plates for disabled. I trade around to much to have a lic plate.
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Post by Wendor » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:18 pm

unjonharley wrote:WEnder, don't know where your info is from. Your wrong in most of it. The IDs are given upon request fom dmv. This is for reason of theft of the card. This has become a large problem. There is a location on the card to put drive lic# the expire is punched along the boarder. Others have lic. plates for disabled. I trade around to much to have a lic plate.
Wrong, let's see:
Disabled parking placards from Nevada do not have the driver's license number on them.
Nor do placards from Georgia, Alabama, Mississipi, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Florida, Montana, Wyoming, Wisconsin, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, North Dakota, South Dakota, West Virginia, Arizona, Alaska and New Mexico. (All of which we have exaples of sitting on the desk in the surveillance office) Now do 8 of the 10 examples we have from California.

Yes, every state will issue an ID card to non-drivers if requested. In none of of the 50 states is such ID is required of the diabled person in order for the vehicle which is used to transport them to receive either handicapped plates or a handicapped parking placard. In none of the 50 states is it legal (under federal laws) to put any kind of "disabled" designation on a drivers license or ID card unless the person specificallly requests such. In 46 of the 50 states there is no option for such even if the person requests it.

There are no standards or requirements for any type of "permanent disability" identification or card whatsoever.

Even you information about the expiry date being punched on the border shows how much assumption you are basing on your limited local experience. Only 5 states use punch borders for either their permanent or even their temporary handicapped parking placards.

If you want to pursue this you should start with some good information sources on the mater:
www.ada.gov
www.disabilityinfo.gov
and then proceed with some serious research with both your state and local law enforcement offices, your state DMV for discussions of their reciprocity agreements and standards, and national disabity rights groups for discussions of the status of national standards regarding such.

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hi

Post by Lysergic » Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:31 am

Well so you can have stand up scooters, but what about stand up mountain boards with motors?
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Post by unjonharley » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:04 am

WEndor, Why don't you put your glasses on and take a look at the Oregon placard. Might take another look at all of them. Seeings you made one mistake. I'll be on the pjone to day check states.
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Re: hi

Post by unjonharley » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:09 am

Lysergic wrote:Well so you can have stand up scooters, but what about stand up mountain boards with motors?

I saw quit a few boards this year. One with all mottor in the center. the guys feet went into the wheels it's self. Looked real spendy. Most of the boards were speeding. Looked like fun but the MVD may take a bite out of themm 05.
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Post by Wendor » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:02 pm

unjonharley wrote:WEndor, Why don't you put your glasses on and take a look at the Oregon placard. Might take another look at all of them. Seeings you made one mistake. I'll be on the pjone to day check states.
We have 3 Oregon placards on the desk right now. *NONE* have drivers license numbers, names, or any other identifying information on them. Nor do nay of the three use punch border expiration dates.

Getting on the phone and doing some research is a good idea. Much better than continuing to blindly assume that all handicapped parking placards for all states just happen to be exactly the same as yours.

What possesses fools like you to assume that just because your local office happens to do things one particular way, that no one else in the country could possibly do things any differently? Of course, reading your other posts on other threads you seem to rely heavily on emotion to make up for often completely lacking any facts to base your assumptions on.

But hey, delude yourself all you want, it won't make any difference to the folks who have to deal with the actual facts from the *REAL* world.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:35 am

Wendor wrote: Again, you've got me lost. Standard disabled parking placards do *NOT* have your name, driver's license number or any other personally identifying information on them except a serial number that we can't match to a person because the only link is in the state motor vehicle registration computer. We can track the serial numbers we have seen in order to ensure that we don't get shown the same placard by mutiple different people, but we can't verify that the placard was issued to the person who shows it to us.
The California Temporary placard issued to my husband is not valid if he doesn't supply the paperwork with it. That has his name. I don't know what other states are like, and if it difers between permanent and temporary, but it seems to me that there's a possible enforcement point.

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Post by unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:26 pm

In Ca. you recieve your placard in the mail. That is assure you live where you say you do. Along with the placard is #id card that matches the placard #. That's how it reads to me.
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