BBadger wrote: What makes a veteran any more worthy than a burgin? The fact that they went there before is hardly a qualification. It better not carry much weight in the ticket distribution--that would be unfairly treating (favoring) veteran burners.
Poor analogy. Relationships are built between people, and time invested counts towards building that relationship. Showing up at Burning Man every year does not, in and of itself, add any value to the event. Just being a veteran is of no value to everyone else, and entitled burnier-than-thou veterans are worth less than birgins as far as I'm concerned.ZaphodBurner wrote:BBadger wrote: What makes a veteran any more worthy than a burgin? The fact that they went there before is hardly a qualification. It better not carry much weight in the ticket distribution--that would be unfairly treating (favoring) veteran burners.
What makes a wife any more worthy than mistress? Sweat equity and time invested, for starters.
They've sold presale tickets for a few years before this.Colonel Monk wrote:don't forget they started the ticket selling process this year with elitism - 3000 tickets for $420 each, highest priced tickets yet.
Trilo it is a pleasure to hear that for once you have mixed feelings about the ticketing decisions. I understand the official stated criteria and logistics of how they are selecting the special ticket theme camps/art projects but lets be honest this is a highly subjective process for distributing tickets and I don't think its fair or righteous or inclusive or just in any way whatsoever. There is just no way that this isn't going to tilt towards friends of the org, those with personal relationships in the org, the darling art-teams that already get grant funding every year for the last what 8 years, etc. To pretend this isn't going to happen is again to ignore all the basic principles of human psychology and the history of this organization. If it comes to deciding between some random theme camp that's been going for years and a friend of someone the org whose camp got decimated ticket-wise this year, who do you think is going to get the tickets? I'm afraid non-San Francisco based camps are at a huge disadvantage here...trilobyte wrote:Whew, what a night! The theme camp forum was a great meeting with good info (I'll post that elsewhere tomorrow as I get the chance to go through my notes). They gave us the nuts and the bolts of the announcement, but I had to wait til I got home to actually read all the details. Personally, I've got mixed feelings…and probably need either a few more beers or a good night's sleep. To be fair though, there's no decision that could have been made that would make everybody happy (the fundamental problem is still scarcity).
FYI - if you read the blog post earlier in the evening, please consider taking another look. A couple addendums appeared to have been added (they're noted)
@alt12 - the last 10 years or so of your participation on the theme camp side is in the placement team's database. I'm not sure how far back DMV goes, but they keep records too. While the placers or DMV people may change, the history is still there. I'll post my notes from the theme camp forum tomorrow, which may explain things a bit more than the blog post.
Interesting question, let me see, in the last 4 years our small camp has brought 14 birgens, 4 have returned at least once. All four that have returned have been hard workers. Of the other 10, four were hard workers and good birgens.Colonel Monk wrote:You never know who is going to transform from a gaper yahoo dumbass into a year after year burner, but shit, the first year they are all suspects - why? Well I don't know what % of virgins return the very next year ready to rock but it's not 100%, nor is it 75%, could be 50%? Anyone?
I agree with ZaphodBurner on this. Most veterans I know bring a lot more to the table than birgens. Even when we work for several months with birgens to get them ready. I love watching the faces of birgens though. They are so full of wonder....ZaphodBurner wrote:BBadger wrote: What makes a veteran any more worthy than a burgin? The fact that they went there before is hardly a qualification. It better not carry much weight in the ticket distribution--that would be unfairly treating (favoring) veteran burners.
What makes a wife any more worthy than mistress? Sweat equity and time invested, for starters.
I think that the people that run the event get to make the decisions, and I'm willing to let them. If, once it has shaken out, I think there was something decidedly unfair about it, I will certainly say something. But we won't know until it has happened.alt12 wrote:If it comes to deciding between some random theme camp that's been going for years and a friend of someone the org whose camp got decimated ticket-wise this year, who do you think is going to get the tickets? I'm afraid non-San Francisco based camps are at a huge disadvantage here...
piehole wrote:After my initial reaction to the decision made by bmorg, I can honestly say this only makes me want to be there even more--with or without my close friends whom I originally planned on going with.
Ever since after one of my best friends, the one who initially introduced me to this community, came back and told me his story from 2010, I told myself that 2012 WILL be my virgin year at the Burn.
And booyah, I get selected in this random drawing lottery thing. Was it luck? Maybe.
I don't care anymore, this is my year.
You sound like an awesome Birgen, hope to see you out there. Come climb our tower and ride our elephant, or just stop by for a cold beverage.waynerd wrote:Being one of the "million" virgins . . .
My two bits, that's all.
So I guess I'll see some of you on the playa. I'll be the guy standing around with all the other NEWBS wondering what the big deal is and why there's so much dust. ....NOT.
My theme camp is actually not hurting ticket wise. I'm one of only a couple of key folks without tickets and was already considering taking the year off before the ticket debacle so really its not personal for me or my people. So its not about "adaptability" for me personally. Its really the principle of it that bothers me and the inevitable cronyism, nepotism, and elitism that is inherent in a handful of secret (we don't know who either) people making a personal decision about who is "in" and who is "out" with no accountability (we have no way of knowing how these tickets are distributed). But you are 100% correct: those with the power get to decide who gets tickets in whatever way they want. It doesn't make it just but it is the way it is. I think this process is inherently "unfair." I think I am choosing to assume the most obvious outcome and based on human nature and based on how BRC LLC's history in which the same people get favoritism year after year after year in many different categories.... Like I said, its not a "challenge" to me personally, its a matter of ideals and principles and accountability. Of course the ORG is a private party and they can do whatever they want. However it does render the 10 Principles meaningless if they are wantonly violated by the core people....The CO wrote:I think that the people that run the event get to make the decisions, and I'm willing to let them. If, once it has shaken out, I think there was something decidedly unfair about it, I will certainly say something. But we won't know until it has happened.alt12 wrote:If it comes to deciding between some random theme camp that's been going for years and a friend of someone the org whose camp got decimated ticket-wise this year, who do you think is going to get the tickets? I'm afraid non-San Francisco based camps are at a huge disadvantage here...
I'm choosing not to assume the worst. Perhaps you and I just have different approaches to challenges.
I was against the idea of theme camps getting special consideration. That doesn't mean I won't take the opportunity to help campmates if we are selected. If we're not, I'll still look for ways to help my ticketless campmates. If we can't get tickets for everyone, the camp will still be awesome. It's called displaying adaptability: it is a good trait to have as a person, and an even better one for a theme camp.
I'm a Birgen this year...as are many people that I've met on here. I've known of Burning Man for about 6 years and always wanted to go. I decided this year would be my year way before the lottery crap was introduced. I've read the Survival Guide up and down, front to back. I've made lists, saved money, started on gifting projects and so on... I can only hope that there are more Birgen's out there that have done the same as I have. If they have - this year will be the best yet! Then next year we can keep the tradition of saying "last year was better" going on for years to comeGalaxo Magic wrote:So, if 40% of the 40k tickets go to Birgens, then we'll have 16k Birgens, if half of them are awesome contributors, then there will only be 8k dumbass Birgens out of 58k. That's about 13-14% dumbass, that seems normal to me. So I am cool with the 16k Birgens this year. PLUS, I am guessing that Birgens that had it together to get a ticket in the lottery already know more than the average Birgen of years past.
I can't wait for 2012 Birgen Man!
Galaxo Magic wrote:You sound like an awesome Birgen, hope to see you out there. Come climb our tower and ride our elephant, or just stop by for a cold beverage.waynerd wrote:Being one of the "million" virgins . . .
My two bits, that's all.
So I guess I'll see some of you on the playa. I'll be the guy standing around with all the other NEWBS wondering what the big deal is and why there's so much dust. ....NOT.
Hahahah, no need for the disclaimer, you're positive and idealistic attitude gives you away. This is why many of us crusty, surly, jaded veterans are happy to have the positive enthusiastic energy of new blood to keep us going.Finxiekins wrote:
With that said, I'm very happy with the BMORGS decision
2012 is going to be an awesome year, I bet. Dusty or not, the playa is all about self-reliance, and this year the ticket situation is also. Get on your game face and go for it in whatever way that you can! I WILL GET TO THE PLAYA. And I'll manage to bring my husband and friend as well.
(And a disclaimer: I am a virgin without the three tickets I need. But I know that I'll get them somehow - Sure, it's still up in the air. The theme camps may not get enough tickets to cover everyone, but I know in my heart that I'll get tickets somehow. Just want to make this disclaimer so I don't get flamed as someone 'Who just doesn't know my suffering because they have the tickets they need.)
Thanks. Trying to keep some positivity here. I've had my ups and downs, but I've dealt with it privately and decided not to bring it to the eplaya. This is not the place for me to whine and complain, this is the place for me to make sure I remember the good things and make some awesome friends.alt12 wrote:Hahahah, no need for the disclaimer, you're positive and idealistic attitude gives you away. This is why many of us crusty, surly, jaded veterans are happy to have the positive enthusiastic energy of new blood to keep us going.Finxiekins wrote:
With that said, I'm very happy with the BMORGS decision
2012 is going to be an awesome year, I bet. Dusty or not, the playa is all about self-reliance, and this year the ticket situation is also. Get on your game face and go for it in whatever way that you can! I WILL GET TO THE PLAYA. And I'll manage to bring my husband and friend as well.
(And a disclaimer: I am a virgin without the three tickets I need. But I know that I'll get them somehow - Sure, it's still up in the air. The theme camps may not get enough tickets to cover everyone, but I know in my heart that I'll get tickets somehow. Just want to make this disclaimer so I don't get flamed as someone 'Who just doesn't know my suffering because they have the tickets they need.)
Awesome, I am guessing that most Birgens are doing what you are doing this year. Best crop of Birgens in BM history! See you out there!Brianna_Beauty413 wrote:I'm a Birgen this year...as are many people that I've met on here. I've known of Burning Man for about 6 years and always wanted to go. I decided this year would be my year way before the lottery crap was introduced. I've read the Survival Guide up and down, front to back. I've made lists, saved money, started on gifting projects and so on... I can only hope that there are more Birgen's out there that have done the same as I have. If they have - this year will be the best yet! Then next year we can keep the tradition of saying "last year was better" going on for years to comeGalaxo Magic wrote:So, if 40% of the 40k tickets go to Birgens, then we'll have 16k Birgens, if half of them are awesome contributors, then there will only be 8k dumbass Birgens out of 58k. That's about 13-14% dumbass, that seems normal to me. So I am cool with the 16k Birgens this year. PLUS, I am guessing that Birgens that had it together to get a ticket in the lottery already know more than the average Birgen of years past.
I can't wait for 2012 Birgen Man!
Ok, so from what I know of you and your camp, you bring a giant mobile pink elephant with a party balcony (which I want to ride on!) and you keep the music at a level to respect your neighbors and the conversations of your riders as you drive through the city.Galaxo Magic wrote: I don't know what this implies and it is a very small sample. My experience in 11-years of going is that a % of birgens (maybe 40-50%) end up being great burners, the other 50-60% end up being yahoo dumbasses. On the other hand, all the veteran burners in our camp (100%) are great burners, hard working, participants. What does it mean? I have no fracking idea.....but makes me feel like veterans have the edge on birgens. JMHO
Well, you are right. Time invested counts toward building that relationship. By your own words, showing up does not add value. My camp has been working for over a year to get to this point, and we've been an LNT camp every year we've attended. This will be our fourth year as a group and we've all volunteered at other camps, taken on extra responsibilities on and off playa, but, whatever.DrYes wrote:Poor analogy. Relationships are built between people, and time invested counts towards building that relationship. Showing up at Burning Man every year does not, in and of itself, add any value to the event.ZaphodBurner wrote:
What makes a wife any more worthy than mistress? Sweat equity and time invested, for starters.
LOL! Let's agree not to have this conversation at Arlington Cemetery.DrYes wrote: Just being a veteran is of no value to everyone else,
I'm in absolute agreement with you here. THAT part of the decision was necessary.Veterans who -do- things on the other hand....that's a different story, and that's why BMORG is giving those 10,000 tickets to people in established camps.
hear hear!!Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves. I for one think that's rather silly. All of the virgins I've talked to have studied, learned, know the ten principles by heart and are working hard to make sure they are just as valuable. Hell, I know a few virgins who are doing their best to make an art piece, a camp, something to contribute to the playa.
I'm part of a theme camp and a virgin - But I want to make sure that I contribute as much as I possibly can. I've never met any of these people in the real world, but I feel a dedication to them and to making their theme camp absolutely awesome. WHY? Because I'm a virgin who wants to contribute, a virgin who wants to be well-read, and a virgin who wants to be valuable to the playa and the people of the playa.
Sure - There will be some ignorant people who have no clue what they're doing, but I know plenty of virgins who refuse to be THAT guy.
With that said, I'm very happy with the BMORGS decision, although I am a little perturbed about the 1 ticket limit on step. However, it's a step in a direction. Whether that direction is the correct one, I don't know and I'm sure they don't know. They've been doing what they can to make sure that everything works out, that they help as many people as they can. It's not easy making this many people happy, and you never will make all of them happy.
Burning Man knows that having the theme camps and art installments and art cars are important and they're trying to help the group that hurts the most currently. Yes, it is sad that you and your SO didn't get a ticket, virgin or not, but it seems like there are a lot of theme camps that need tickets horribly.
STEP will be a hard thing to deal with, especially for multiple people that used one card, but it's really important to remember that not everyone who has a ticket now will actually be able to go. As the good doc said, things happen. Best plan is to befriend people, make it known that you need tickets and hope that someone can help you out. Put yourself out there, because even if you don't get tickets to the playa, you could still be up for some awesome regionals and you'll make some good life-long friends.
2012 is going to be an awesome year, I bet. Dusty or not, the playa is all about self-reliance, and this year the ticket situation is also. Get on your game face and go for it in whatever way that you can! I WILL GET TO THE PLAYA. And I'll manage to bring my husband and friend as well.
(And a disclaimer: I am a virgin without the three tickets I need. But I know that I'll get them somehow - Sure, it's still up in the air. The theme camps may not get enough tickets to cover everyone, but I know in my heart that I'll get tickets somehow. Just want to make this disclaimer so I don't get flamed as someone 'Who just doesn't know my suffering because they have the tickets they need.)
I'll have a beer waiting for yaGalaxo Magic wrote:Awesome, I am guessing that most Birgens are doing what you are doing this year. Best crop of Birgens in BM history! See you out there!
Brianna_Beauty413 wrote:I'll have a beer waiting for yaGalaxo Magic wrote:Awesome, I am guessing that most Birgens are doing what you are doing this year. Best crop of Birgens in BM history! See you out there!
It warms the cockles of my heart to see nncoco get repeatedly bitch-slapped...haolegolucky wrote:Oh thats right...Dubstep is the only acceptable music on the playa. He must have forgotten.nncoco wrote:Maybe Burning Man is not for you...inthecolumbiagorge wrote:
Dave Matthews at the gorge for Labor day weekend is sounding mighty fine right about now!
Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.
