Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Smenkare · Post by **Smenkare** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:06 am

[quote="jkisha"][quote="The CO"]So.....

Don't buy them.

Or do.

Or maybe, report them to the ticket people at burningman.com.[/quote]
Nothing they can do. Scalping is legal in Nevada.[/quote]

Scalpig may be legal in Nevada, but as far as I know, BORG is based out of Sanfrancisco, CA and the tickets were on a Craigslist ad for NYC. If the scalper scalped the tickets outside the state of Nevada, does the law still apply?

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:10 am

They will sell them to someone who will appreciate them and they will go to Burning Man and have a great time.

forty_eight · Post by **forty_eight** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:12 am

Anti-scalper vigilantes, lol.

Where else can you get two tickets?

At this point, scalping is Communal Effort turned on its head. Nothing is what it seems anymore (it never was anyway). No need to demonize rational actors acting rationally. The BMORG already made a decision that some Principles take precedent over others. When one network fails, another can emerge to take its place. Enter StubHub and Craigslist. Reality is a bitch!

vargaso · Post by **vargaso** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:12 am

Smenkare wrote:
jkisha wrote:
The CO wrote:So.....

Don't buy them.

Or do.

Or maybe, report them to the ticket people at burningman.com.
Nothing they can do. Scalping is legal in Nevada.
Scalpig may be legal in Nevada, but as far as I know, BORG is based out of Sanfrancisco, CA and the tickets were on a Craigslist ad for NYC. If the scalper scalped the tickets outside the state of Nevada, does the law still apply?

The terms of service state specifically that the BMORG can revoke a ticket for any reason it sees fit, and scalping sure would be one of those. As stated elsewhere, the best method is to call the number, ask for the ticket confirmation number so that you can verify with BM that it's real, once you get that number, report it to BM, the will most likely revoke the ticket and refund the money to the buyer, placing that ticket into STEP. Or the double secret special theme camps, who knows.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:30 am

vargaso wrote: The terms of service state specifically that the BMORG can revoke a ticket for any reason it sees fit, and scalping sure would be one of those. As stated elsewhere, the best method is to call the number, ask for the ticket confirmation number so that you can verify with BM that it's real, once you get that number, report it to BM, the will most likely revoke the ticket and refund the money to the buyer, placing that ticket into STEP. Or the double secret special theme camps, who knows.

That's a great idea, but they'll probably not sell it to you, or give you the number.

And if they don't want to give you the number, that's the first clue that it's a sketchy deal no matter what, which is why you would want to report to the Org immediately anyway.

All it will take is a few, or at least the most aggressive, scalpers to get burned and it will help. So, everybody, PLEASE:

Ask for the ticket confirmation number before you buy a ticket. If they can't give it to you, it's probably a scam or a scalper.

Idea... A scalper report hotline, so the tickets can be stopped quickly before the scalper sells it to somebody else. The reward for reporting a scalper could be the ticket itself, at face value.

Odysseus · Post by **Odysseus** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:32 am

At this point, scalping is Communal Effort turned on its head. Nothing is what it seems anymore (it never was anyway). No need to demonize rational actors acting rationally. The BMORG already made a decision that some Principles take precedent over others. When one network fails, another can emerge to take its place. Enter StubHub and Craigslist. Reality is a bitch!

I've given this a lot of thought myself and what I've come to realize is that although it does represent 'rational players acting rationally' in a certain purely economical sense, what isn't taken into account is the mixed incentives that this sort of behavior causes. For example, when an 'arbitrageur' [read, scalper] sells a ticket for double the face value, they pocket the additional money. So, of the total sale price, perhaps 5% goes to the BM org, 15% goes to BRC infrastructure, 30% to BM artists and camps, and 50% goes to the scalper. So what you create is not an incentive to contribute to the quality of the event in any way, but instead a strong incentive to hawkishly profit from other people's efforts. Allowing this to continue will not only alienate many of the community who cannot afford such expensive tickets, it will also significantly reduce the utility gained from the BM experience for those who can. Part of the enjoyment of any paid-for good is in the difference between what you gave up and what you got. If we allow the tickets to cost exactly what people are willing and able to pay, then that enjoyment factor goes down considerably... So any way you look at it, outside of the black/white nonsense arena of utilitarian economics, this trend will damage Burning Man until something is put in place to stop it.

Smenkare · Post by **Smenkare** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:41 am

Checked CL for major cities in PA, CA, WA, TX and NY, I think I saw maybe 1 ticket that was "possibly a scalper ticket" everything else was Face Value only or up for trade (cochella tix, art, an extra ticket to someone who would share their motor home and camp experience...)

One hour, twice a week up until burn time I'm checking various ticket resale sites, Craigslist and ebay and trolling for scalper tickets.

It's our event. Our ideals. Lets protect them.

hotmess · Post by **hotmess** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:43 am

I'm with you!!!! We are here to serve and protect (without brutal force). We just need to use our finger tips!

vargaso · Post by **vargaso** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:44 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
vargaso wrote: The terms of service state specifically that the BMORG can revoke a ticket for any reason it sees fit, and scalping sure would be one of those. As stated elsewhere, the best method is to call the number, ask for the ticket confirmation number so that you can verify with BM that it's real, once you get that number, report it to BM, the will most likely revoke the ticket and refund the money to the buyer, placing that ticket into STEP. Or the double secret special theme camps, who knows.
That's a great idea, but they'll probably not sell it to you, or give you the number.

And if they don't want to give you the number, that's the first clue that it's a sketchy deal no matter what, which is why you would want to report to the Org immediately anyway.

All it will take is a few, or at least the most aggressive, scalpers to get burned and it will help. So, everybody, PLEASE:

Ask for the ticket confirmation number before you buy a ticket. If they can't give it to you, it's probably a scam or a scalper.

Idea... A scalper report hotline, so the tickets can be stopped quickly before the scalper sells it to somebody else. The reward for reporting a scalper could be the ticket itself, at face value.

Agreed on all counts. If you buy from anywhere but STEP and don't get the confirmation number before sending money (even if it's at face value), then you're a fool. If the person will not give you the number, then it's either a scam (they don't have the ticket confirmation and/or ticket) or it's a scalper waiting to find a buyer who doesn't ask for the number so they can be sure it won't get reported. Report it as best you can, although without the number, it's tough to identify.

forty_eight · Post by **forty_eight** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:50 am

Odysseus wrote:So, of the total sale price, perhaps 5% goes to the BM org, 15% goes to BRC infrastructure, 30% to BM artists and camps, and 50% goes to the scalper ... Part of the enjoyment of any paid-for good is in the difference between what you gave up and what you got.

How are the percentages of total sales cost relevant and to whom? If I can't go I contribute nothing. If I go and build something, I have Participated. The ability to do so has always been uneven. Scalping isn;t the problem; scaricty is. Trying to control the actions of others is ridiculous. Getting between people meeting trying meet mutual needs is difficult. Scapling prohibitions become just about as moot as drug prohibitions.

The second part frames the ticket as a commodity which is my point. The genie is out of the bottle, so good luck to anyone trying to put it back.

I won't scalp a ticket because $390 was the most I was going to pay, period.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:09 pm

Odysseus wrote:. So what you create is not an incentive to contribute to the quality of the event in any way, but instead a strong incentive to hawkishly profit from other people's efforts...

Yes! You just described the "American Way."

Ruleryak · Post by **Ruleryak** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:07 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:The llc has managed to get some pertinent information on some of these sales and pulled the tickets. Might as well let them try.

Can you please provide proof of this? People keep saying it but so far I've seen nothing at all from the LLC indicating that they're doing anything of the sort. Maid Marian's flat out said they aren't revoking any tickets or redoing the lottery - that sales are final - so I'm not sure where this is idea is coming from. The anti-scalper "scrubbing" happened prior to billing and awarding tickets - not during or after.

It's legal to scalp in NV - period. The LLC wouldn't have the legal justification needed to pull a ticket for scalping. I'm sure they try to go after fake ticket sellers/scammers, but scalpers are within their legal rights to resell tickets for whatever value they decide.

Stephendragonfly · Post by **Stephendragonfly** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:11 pm

I saw an ad on craigslist by someone with four tickets claiming to be burners. Here is the text,
"Our group ended up with FOUR tickets to Burning Man, but are now reconsidering our options. Given that many camps are having a hard time getting together, here's a chance to get a bunch of you together... We're open for trades and/or cash offers... Whatcha got? "

I wrote to these folks asking them to please put the tickets into STEP rather than sell/trade. The Burners I have met, if they had extra tickets, wouldn't end up on Craigslist at all, they would go through their network of friends to sell the tickets at cost. Although I am suspicious of the people who put up this ad, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and not flag them for removal.

hotmess · Post by **hotmess** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:13 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:If it comes to it, I'm going to meet a scalper from CL face to face for the exchange, give him face value, and TAKE the ticket from them no matter what.

When you put it that way .. . . . that sounds like a great idea!

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:47 pm

hotmess wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:If it comes to it, I'm going to meet a scalper from CL face to face for the exchange, give him face value, and TAKE the ticket from them no matter what.
When you put it that way .. . . . that sounds like a great idea!

That is exactly my plan.

Smenkare · Post by **Smenkare** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:18 pm

Scalping is very Capitalistic, and we live in a capitalistic society, I have a hard time picturing an individual getting a fair shake with local law enforcement if they meet a scalper face to face and pay "face value" for a ticket and then take it by force/intimidation tactics even if the scalper is doing something morally reprehensible but marginally legal.

That said, if I get the option to meet a scalper face to face, I'm going to examine the ticket, or at least demand to see it (and Photo ID of the person selling it), write down the serial# and Driver's License #, offer said scalper face value for the ticket and if they decline, report the serial # and the individual for violation of the T's and C's. And in "theory" that ticket will go back into the pool and some other burner will get it.

Fight non-violent crimes with non-violent "legal" opposition. After-all, what have you got to loose? (nothing, you don't have a ticket) and what have they got to loose? (the ticket and the money they paid for it as well as what they hoped to sell it for.)

Even if I GET a ticket through Step or from a camp mate. I'm still going scalper seeking, because it gives the chance to another burner out there to get a ticket without feeding greed, and it defends the principles I hold as a burner.

Post by **trilobyte** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Scalper-wise, the numbers remain incredibly low (compared with other 'hot ticket' events). Taking a quick look at the sites I've been measuring weekly, there are only 112 Burning Man tickets available (that's 4 down from before the open sale was canceled). Any number above zero is more than I'd like to see, of course, but it's still a good sign.

Please continue to use restraint, avoiding either lynch mob threads or posting links to ticket sales or auctions on 3rd party sites (even if it's in outrage, we don't want to give them any additional page views). More info on the subject coming in the next day or two.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:56 pm

Smenkare wrote:Scalping is very Capitalistic, and we live in a capitalistic society, I have a hard time picturing an individual getting a fair shake with local law enforcement if they meet a scalper face to face and pay "face value" for a ticket

I thought about this too. That's why you should wear a costume.

"Well...um...he had blue hair, pink star-shaped sunglasses, a bondage harness and...uh...goat leggings... You say he only gave you $320 for a ticket that says $320 on it."
"Yeah, but, I wanted $600 for it."
"You wanted $600 for a $320 ticket. If he was robbing you, why would he give you any money at all...this guy in goat leggings?
"Well...yeah..."
"Son, have you been drinking or using drugs? Do you have any outstanding warrants?"

The fact is, you'll probably do more time for possession or distribution of controlled substances than you will for liberating a ticket and giving the guy the price listed on it. Doesn't seem to stop burners from droppin' it on the playa.

socks · Post by **socks** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:01 pm

Once the tickets are shipped then you will see all the tickets up for sale but not on s.t.e.p.

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:35 pm

socks wrote:Once the tickets are shipped then you will see all the tickets up for sale but not on s.t.e.p.

Yup. And I'm betting not many will be at face value either.

pink · Post by **pink** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:53 pm

But getting the serial number into the Borg's database will flag the name, email, cc number and any other pertinent info as a scalper. The scalper will be flagged for 2013 sales, so reporting them after the tix have shipped is as important as before.

moonrise · Post by **moonrise** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:59 pm

@pink, sounds like you have the full scoop and I take your post as the best method so far, but...

some of us don't have easy transportation options.

What about sending the scalper on a wild goose chase? As in no show and waste their time (during rush hour and other rotten times to meet up).
I know it isn't the best option, but it may be helpful.

Or what if we (as in 100's of us, lurkers too!) flood their ad(s) with 100's if not 1000's of requests to meet and buy the ticket. Would that screw them up?

Please advise...as I am not a fucking scalper type and have no idea what is the best method for fucking them over and teaching them a legal lesson (stay away from Burning Man, ya assholes).

Use a sock if ya gotta answer with (legal) agro ideas, but I think there's much much more (than passive agressive basics) we can do fuck their plans up. ]'[ grr!

Stephendragonfly · Post by **Stephendragonfly** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:09 pm

This one just showed up on Craigslist San Francisco, under for sale, tickets by owner.

"Currently for Sale: The Soul of Burning Man. Price negotiable, final sale to highest bidder. "

Not sure if it is a mock or a real post...Flag It???

pink · Post by **pink** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:10 pm

I don't know necessarily the best way, but the ones that tick me off the most are the 'I'll finance my burn' types of scalpers. Fuck 'em. I want to see them scrubbed from the list, flagged, hung from a post. They're not Burners IMHO, and are the type the city can do without in the future.

moonrise · Post by **moonrise** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:12 pm

Maybe do the "Wild goose chase", then flag it? I doubt the scalpers are reading eplaya, and if they are they're pulling an inside job! (fuck you!)

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:15 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
hotmess wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:If it comes to it, I'm going to meet a scalper from CL face to face for the exchange, give him face value, and TAKE the ticket from them no matter what.
When you put it that way .. . . . that sounds like a great idea!
That is exactly my plan.

What if they have a gun and are planning on robbing you? It has happened.

Stephendragonfly · Post by **Stephendragonfly** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:29 pm

@Socks,
I think you are correct, once the physical tickets are in the hands of people (along with the survival guide BMORG says they are going to send) we will see a lot of ads for tickets pop up, on Craigslist, Stubhub, Ebay, etc. At first they will be terribly overpriced, but as the date draws near the ticket prices will get lower and lower as opportunists find themselves hit with the increasing possibility of being stuck with a ticket for an event they have no intention of going to. I believe that after Burning Man begins it will be possible to buy tickets for below face value, just like last year. The bad news is that people who buy the under priced tickets as a last minute decision may not have enough experience or time to figure out what they ought to bring to the Playa.
ACCK!!! It's the Sparklepony Express!!!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:10 am

WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
Because, someone "breaks the rules", or does something you don't like?

How about you run a red light, and a concerned citizen pulls you out of your car and beats you?

you want to meet them, with a weapon in hand (maybe not intending to use it, but, how would anyone know?), and say "I'd not hurt anyone or kill for it.
At the point you show up armed, you've escalated, and have lost control.

So, what are you going to do, when the scalper, (asking 500 bucks) lets you look at the ticket, you hand him 390, and he says "no"? It's his business, if he breaks the rules. But, if you take it, and not for an agreed sum, I'd bet the cops would side with the scalper. Not to mention, if you refuse to return it when asked, you may be committing a property crime (in the eyes of the police) and the scalper may well be justified in beating you, to get his property back.
Are you willing, to engage in physical, potentially deadly, confrontation?
If not, don't go there looking for it.

Violence? Really?

How about, as others suggest, get the numbers, ID, report them to the ORG to see what can be done.

Choose your battles wisely, IMHO.

How, are you, and your attendance, any more important, that the scalpers attempts, to do what he wants? Really, not just emotionally, but, it comes down, IMHO, to which of you is more "deserving"?

I'm not condoning scalping, in any way or form.
But, I am decrying the thought of harming others, for the sake of a few dollars (the difference between scalping and face value).

If a person is desperate to go, one has to decide where their morals and integrity end, to go.
I'd pay 100 bucks (over face value) or whatever, to not have a fight, hurt or get hurt, jail, or worse. But, you have to decide, if you want/need to go that bad.
Perhaps, the decision, is really yours (the Burner), as to, how far will I go, to attend?

It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:17 am

Good post Ygmir. I wouldn't have been near as polite.

hotmess · Post by **hotmess** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:29 am

QUESTION: If you purchase a ticket from someone and you want to confirm the tickets what is the best way to go about it? I assume that if they can not give you a confirmation email or proof of confirmation then it is a scam. Also, if you do purchase from someone and they give you the confirmation number can you then change the confirmation number after you change the shipping address so the original purchaser can't change the shipping address back to them?

Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins