Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ygmir » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:31 am

hotmess wrote:QUESTION: If you purchase a ticket from someone and you want to confirm the tickets what is the best way to go about it? I assume that if they can not give you a confirmation email or proof of confirmation then it is a scam. Also, if you do purchase from someone and they give you the confirmation number can you then change the confirmation number after you change the shipping address so the original purchaser can't change the shipping address back to them?
seems there's a thread, or maybe an article on the main site, that deals with this.
Sorry, I don't know the answer, but, you might find it.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 am

@Colonel Monk, I'm not one to judge because I share your desire to give such losers the pimp-hand at every opportunity, BUT, this is the same tactic used by the mob... not stealing, extortion. Explicitly. It is punishable by law if it can be proved (difficult, if you're good at it, as evidenced by the fact that the mob is alive and well).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

Meeting them in person, looking at their ticket numbers, and reporting them on the spot via smartphone and getting their tickets cancelled in front of them would be very emotionally satisfying.

I'm searching for systematic ways to negate these people en mass... I haven't found a reliable method yet because it can be so difficult to link a ticket purchaser to an ad without their cooperation. Just flagging every CL ad is one option. There is no consequence to you, as far as I know, for flagging it for the wrong reason (it didn't violate CL's terms of use, but rather our own sensibilities about scalping).

It frustrates me that we're in this mess because the board's ticket policy had such disregard for the need to align the individual's interest with the community's interest. But we're here, and we must now find ways as individuals and as a community to compensate for that mistake, and hope that the board members are more able to recognize the importance of such alignment in the future.

There is no systemic disincentive to StubHub for brokering BM tickets. It isn't illegal, and they don't stand to lose their investment... they have none. But they do stand to make a commission if they create a transaction. Thus they will list them regardless of the legal agreement between BM and the primary ticket purchaser.

There is no systemic disincentive to scalpers... if they get found out, they lose the profit, but still get their money back. All they're out is a little time. The only way to create a real disincentive to a scalper is to make him be unable to re-sell the ticket and lose his money on it. But this should have been done in the first place through non-transferable/STEP transferable tickets. To attempt it retroactively by "freezing scalpers out" (if it were possible), would only ensure that every scalped ticket was wasted and created value for no one, except perhaps the originator, BRC, Llc, because they sold a ticket and didn't have to pay to haul anyone's poop off in exchange. Given that the LLC members have an emotional investment, not just a financial investment, I suspect they would consider it a loss as well.

So I'm creating disincentives to scalpers as best I can by trying to cost them time and profit, since I can't cost them their original investment or legal retribution. I'm flagging the ads I can, trying to get specific, actionable information when I can, etc. The best way I've thought of is to try to get a copy of the confirmation email from the seller. "I know what the email looks like because I saw my camp-mates'... please forward so I know you're for real." Forward it to the BMOrg and you're done. Tickets cancelled.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:36 am

hotmess wrote:QUESTION: If you purchase a ticket from someone and you want to confirm the tickets what is the best way to go about it? I assume that if they can not give you a confirmation email or proof of confirmation then it is a scam. Also, if you do purchase from someone and they give you the confirmation number can you then change the confirmation number after you change the shipping address so the original purchaser can't change the shipping address back to them?
If you have enough info to verify the ticket, you have enough info to get it cancelled and put back into the STEP pool. Just sayin'.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by wh..sh » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 am

yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by hotmess » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:43 am

Seems like the seller is unwilling to give me any info regarding the confirmation. I know what the email looks like as I saw my friends. Won't even send out a confirmation with con # blacked out so I can be sure name and email are on the ticket. I think i am gonna flag this person.

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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:45 am

I'm not sure they can cancel a "fulfilled" ticket. I'm also pretty sure that if you had a genuine ticket at the gate, you'd be let in--even if that ticket has been canceled. There's just no way for gate staff to know this.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:49 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I'm not sure they can cancel a "fulfilled" ticket. I'm also pretty sure that if you had a genuine ticket at the gate, you'd be let in--even if that ticket has been canceled. There's just no way for gate staff to know this.
Right, so evangelists should act now, while all scalpers have got is a confirmation number. Assuming one is an evangelist on this subject.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:51 am

ygmir wrote:WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
...
Violence? Really?
...
It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.
It saddens Rick Santorum that there are homosexuals. That's his problem. We're not all pacifists. If we were, we'd all be victims. It saddens me that there are scalpers.

If somebody tries to sell me a scalped ticket, I'll take the ticket from him--which is an academic exercise because he probably won't be holding the actual article--for inspection, and give him the ticket value, plus a little extra for his original shipping/handling fee. He doesn't get the ticket back. If he wants it back, it will be up to him to initiate violence. That would be a profoundly bad idea.

I WOULD have considered taking the information from the ticket, flagging him and getting the sale canceled. But since we can only buy one ticket from the STEP program and my wife gets it, that means I'd be ineligible to buy from the Org the ticket that I liberated from a scalper. So, that option is effectively off the table.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ygmir » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:59 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
ygmir wrote:WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
...
Violence? Really?
...
It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.
It saddens Rick Santorum that there are homosexuals. That's his problem. We're not all pacifists. If we were, we'd all be victims. It saddens me that there are scalpers.

If somebody tries to sell me a scalped ticket, I'll take the ticket from him--which is an academic exercise because he probably won't be holding the actual article--, inspect him, and give him the ticket value, plus a little extra for his original shipping/handling fee. He doesn't get the ticket back. If he wants it back, it will be up to him to initiate violence. That would be a profoundly bad idea.
I'd bet, as you're explaining that to the cops, you'll still be in cuffs. Not sayin' it's right, just sayin I bet that's how it'd shake out. In the cops eyes, you took something, you didn't pay the agreed price, and, you won't give it back.
Burners will not be judging you there, it'll be cops, who don't care how "Burney" or not, you both are.

and, yeah, 'cause your tough.......I bet none of them are as tough :roll: :roll: .......and well, you can blame "them" for initiating violence, for trying to get "their" property back (because they don't agree to sell it for "your" price). But I'd submit, you'd be escalating it by doing so.

again, I don't condone the scalping. Neither, do I agree with your vigilante method, that will work against you, IMHO.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:13 am

wh..sh wrote:yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:26 am

ygmir wrote:
I'd bet, as you're explaining that to the cops, you'll still be in cuffs.
What cops? Is that like when people tell you if you smoke weed, the cops are going to arrest you?

In PDX, the police are more worried about the gang shootings every other day and the fact that a woman was recently beaten by six adolescent youths (racially-motivated. She was white) on the transit system while people watched. Not only that, but, a bus driver was recently beaten by some woman over a fare conflict and her punishment was 90-day suspension from the bus. That suggests to the world if you're not going to ride the bus for three months, you can a bus driver and get away with it. Another woman had soda poured her baby stroller, again on the MAX, by an 11-year-old wielding a gun and showing off to his gang buddies. THAT KID'S 16 y.o sister was murdered by another gang-banger, (and the mom's out on facebook dressed in stripper clothes, flashing gang signs with her son, for real.)

The police aren't going to go Code 3 because some scalper didn't get his full unfair price.

Listen... Trying to be nice, play fair and be courteous to my fellow man is why my wife and I only requested two tickets in the lottery and figured if we didn't win, we'd get tickets in the secondary sale. I'm still committed to playing fair. I will pay the ticket value printed on the ticket.

My bigger fear is that the scalper had the ticket number and will simply call the BORG and report that somebody tried to scalp a ticket with the #... He's got my money, and the ticket is nuked.
ygmir wrote:yeah, 'cause your tough.......I bet none of them are as tough :roll: :roll: ..
What makes you think I'd be alone? :roll: :roll:
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:29 am

hotmess wrote:Seems like the seller is unwilling to give me any info regarding the confirmation. I know what the email looks like as I saw my friends. Won't even send out a confirmation with con # blacked out so I can be sure name and email are on the ticket. I think i am gonna flag this person.
Or, you could just summarily flag every BM ticket post on CL in an effort to make them unsellable via Craigslist, like a denial of service attack, a cyber sit-in. Won't get them cancelled, but it's easy and fast and frustrates the seller.

@ZaphodBurner... I agree with the sentiment, but be careful, I don't want to have to post bail for my burning brethren... legally, extraction of good or services by coercion is extortion, and extraction of a good or service by deception is fraud.

So if the ticket gets into your hands without the seller willingly agreeing to the price, a crime has been committed. It's explicitly outside the law to go there... but difficult to prove or prosecute if there was no physical violence (do with that nugget what you will, let your conscience be your guide...).

To the law, it doesn't matter what's right. It doesn't matter to the cop that scalping is despicable, because it's legal, or that taking the ticket from the little punk was "right" because it's illegal. Even if you're not a pacifist, even if you're active and aggressive in shutting these losers down, I still figure that it's easier to do it by legal means, say trying to get the ticket cancelled, because that doesn't require their consent to be legal. If one stays inside the line on his resistance, he can resist again and again.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by hotmess » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:34 am

Flagged the seller. Total scammer!!!!!!! Simple google of his email address came up with a bunch of hits saying that he is well known. Geeze. THis is what we are now up against. I am with you. Flag all CL post in an effort to make them unsellable.

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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:53 am

mshaman wrote: @ZaphodBurner... I agree with the sentiment, but be careful, I don't want to have to post bail for my burning brethren... legally, extraction of good or services by coercion is extortion, and extraction of a good or service by deception is fraud.

So if the ticket gets into your hands without the seller willingly agreeing to the price, a crime has been committed. It's explicitly outside the law to go there... but difficult to prove or prosecute if there was no physical violence (do with that nugget what you will, let your conscience be your guide...).
Thank you for your kindness, and you have an awesome point: "Difficult to prosecute if there was no physical violence."

You cannot attack somebody over a property dispute. If a Radio Shack employee punches somebody who's trying to steal something from him, that's Battery, and probably even more of a crime than the theft itself.

As long as you don't make threats (Assault, in Oregon) or use force (Battery), and he tries to actually attack you, he's looking at a much more difficult court battle and set of charges than you are. For example, in Gresham some tweakers broke into an AT&T store and tried to run off with cellphones. Some jackass pulled a gun and fired at them...missed... and was subsequently arrested, had his CHL and license confiscated, etc.

By the way, I don't advocate violence. When I see a rattlesnake or an alligator, I neither kill it nor judge it nor judge it for what it is it simply because it's dangerous. I just don't fuck with it. I would rather hug you than argue with you.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by Elderberry » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:02 am

I think your grandfather would be ashamed of you right now.
ZaphodBurner wrote:
wh..sh wrote:yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by lucky420 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:07 am

ZaphodBurner

In PDX, the police are more worried about the gang shootings every other day and the fact that a woman was recently beaten by six adolescent youths (racially-motivated. She was white) on the transit system while people watched. Not only that, but, a bus driver was recently beaten by some woman over a fare conflict and her punishment was 90-day suspension from the bus. That suggests to the world if you're not going to ride the bus for three months, you can a bus driver and get away with it. Another woman had soda poured her baby stroller, again on the MAX, by an 11-year-old wielding a gun and showing off to his gang buddies. THAT KID'S 16 y.o sister was murdered by another gang-banger, (and the mom's out on facebook dressed in stripper clothes, flashing gang signs with her son, for real.)
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by moonrise » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:19 am

In addition to vigorous flagging; what about posting countless ads stating "ALL BURNING MAN TICKET ADS WILL BE FLAGGED INSTANTLY IF OFFERED FOR OVER FACE VALUE" all over CList where the tickets are being sold for over face value.

There are a bajillion pissed off burners just sitting at desk jobs and I have a feeling they'd all be more than happy to assist.

Simply drive the scalpers crazy with frustration.

is there a way to be alaerted of these ads on CList? If there is, I'd like to know...I have a desk type job....
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ygmir » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:19 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
wh..sh wrote:yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.
I don't say, violence is "never" the answer. If attacked, yes, a violent reaction is reasonable.
and, I beleive you're drawing false equivalences with your analogous examples to Wh..sh's "an eye for an eye........" statement.


the prisoners rising against their tormentors, is not revenge, it's escape and survival.

I your first "red" quote, seems conflicted: "it's better to be violent, if there's violence in our hearts". well ok I see that as a statement, but how does the rest tie into it? cloaking impotence with non violence, it seems, would also be a stand alone statement.
I also don't see how either apply to this discussion.

I fail to see how your second "red" quote applies here, either.

the only thing I can see in common, is the calls and aggrandizement, if not encouraging violence.

I can see, you filled with "righteous indignation", and note in your other post, a frustration with society in general, and it's unfairness and violence.
I agree with much of this, in that society has become "raw", and the ner-do-wells seem to be taking over. I agree, with violent reaction, to violent aggression, or threat thereof.

But, I just feel, you are suggesting a very "over the top" set of actions, regarding scalpers.
I also feel, you're suggesting being "above the law" in your vigilantism, when in this case, lawful means, IMHO, would work.

just some thoughts.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by Smenkare » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:36 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
wh..sh wrote:yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.
I appreciate that this bothers you. But a scalper isn't an SS trooper with a MAUSER mowing down unnarmed non-combatants. It's just a non-violent parasite that's temporarilly inconvenienced you, me and we don't know how many other people. It's nothing big, it's something that happens every year.

How did your grandfather get out of the POW camp BTW? Did he lead a rebellion of inmates and slaves, and overthrow the guards?
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:45 am

jkisha wrote:I think your grandfather would be ashamed of you right now.
You don't know fuck about my grandfather. You don't speak for him.
lucky420 wrote: Was thinking about visiting Portland this summer if I don't go to the playa, now not so sure...
A million people or so in the metropolitan area are NOT victims of crime each day. It is an unfortunate fact that you must be cautious on the MAX. Portland is a wonderful city with a large Burner community.
smenkare wrote:How did your grandfather get out of the POW camp BTW? Did he lead a rebellion of inmates and slaves, and overthrow the guards?
I hope that's a legitimate question and not snark.

He was rescued by Patton's army, who liberated the camp as soon as they heard about it. He was left at the camp because he and three other "kriegies" who had not eaten for days captured and ate a chicken raw. The other three died, and the Germans took him to KZ Mauthausen, expecting him to die. A couple of days later, before the army showed up, a jew marching to his own disposal looked over him and said "Cheer up, yank, you'll be home soon" and an SS guard shot the man in the head and let the dogs have the body. The next day, the SS all fled, leaving the dogs to roam among the camp and fend for themselves. The dogs were the only source of food, and he managed to capture, kill and eat one that had been eating the dying prisoners.

When he was liberated he was 6'1" and weighed 79lbs. It would not have been possible for him to overthrow the guards. He died in 1995 from organic destruction caused by severe malnutrition, complicated by Hepatitis C that he got from a VA blood transfusion. All for having to go fight to save some pacifists.

@wraith: GOOD POINT!
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by wraith » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:48 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
mshaman wrote: @ZaphodBurner... I agree with the sentiment, but be careful, I don't want to have to post bail for my burning brethren... legally, extraction of good or services by coercion is extortion, and extraction of a good or service by deception is fraud.

So if the ticket gets into your hands without the seller willingly agreeing to the price, a crime has been committed. It's explicitly outside the law to go there... but difficult to prove or prosecute if there was no physical violence (do with that nugget what you will, let your conscience be your guide...).
Thank you for your kindness, and you have an awesome point: "Difficult to prosecute if there was no physical violence."

You cannot attack somebody over a property dispute. If a Radio Shack employee punches somebody who's trying to steal something from him, that's Battery, and probably even more of a crime than the theft itself.

As long as you don't make threats (Assault, in Oregon) or use force (Battery), and he tries to actually attack you, he's looking at a much more difficult court battle and set of charges than you are. For example, in Gresham some tweakers broke into an AT&T store and tried to run off with cellphones. Some jackass pulled a gun and fired at them...missed... and was subsequently arrested, had his CHL and license confiscated, etc.

By the way, I don't advocate violence. When I see a rattlesnake or an alligator, I neither kill it nor judge it nor judge it for what it is it simply because it's dangerous. I just don't fuck with it. I would rather hug you than argue with you.
Depends on your state. In Texas, for example, you can shoot and kill over property.

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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by lucky420 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:56 am

ZaphodBurner,
That is a very touching story about your grandfather...

Sorry for the ot but that just touched my heart and felt the need to tell you.

Okay, carry on...
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Herring
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by Herring » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:15 pm

hotmess wrote:Seems like the seller is unwilling to give me any info regarding the confirmation. I know what the email looks like as I saw my friends. Won't even send out a confirmation with con # blacked out so I can be sure name and email are on the ticket. I think i am gonna flag this person.
This seemed to be the most helpful thing I could find on the main site:

http://blog.burningman.com/2011/08/news ... ket-scams/
"It's impossible." said pride.
"It's risky." said experience.
"It's pointless." said reason.
"Give it a try." whispered the heart.

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hotmess
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by hotmess » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Thanks I just read this awhile ago. Thanks for sharing.

ALSO,if you see someone with the email [removed; send info about scammers to partiserv at burningman dot com] AVIOD HIM. TOTAL BS SCAMMER. Flagged him on CL and wanted to be sure and share with everyone here.

mshaman
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:53 pm

hotmess wrote:Thanks I just read this awhile ago. Thanks for sharing.

ALSO,if you see someone with the email bigshot 102 at gmail dot com AVIOD HIM. TOTAL BS SCAMMER. Flagged him on CL and wanted to be sure and share with everyone here.
You mean [email removed] is a scammer? >> [email removed] <<? *waits for spam bots*
The road of life is littered with flat squirrels who couldn't decide.

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hotmess
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by hotmess » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:01 pm

Yes that dude. Total scammer!!!!!!! beeee booooo bap booooop beeeeep boooo beeeeeeeeeep

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Smenkare
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by Smenkare » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:18 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
jkisha wrote:I think your grandfather would be ashamed of you right now.
You don't know fuck about my grandfather. You don't speak for him.
lucky420 wrote: Was thinking about visiting Portland this summer if I don't go to the playa, now not so sure...
A million people or so in the metropolitan area are NOT victims of crime each day. It is an unfortunate fact that you must be cautious on the MAX. Portland is a wonderful city with a large Burner community.
smenkare wrote:How did your grandfather get out of the POW camp BTW? Did he lead a rebellion of inmates and slaves, and overthrow the guards?
I hope that's a legitimate question and not snark.

He was rescued by Patton's army, who liberated the camp as soon as they heard about it. He was left at the camp because he and three other "kriegies" who had not eaten for days captured and ate a chicken raw. The other three died, and the Germans took him to KZ Mauthausen, expecting him to die. A couple of days later, before the army showed up, a jew marching to his own disposal looked over him and said "Cheer up, yank, you'll be home soon" and an SS guard shot the man in the head and let the dogs have the body. The next day, the SS all fled, leaving the dogs to roam among the camp and fend for themselves. The dogs were the only source of food, and he managed to capture, kill and eat one that had been eating the dying prisoners.

When he was liberated he was 6'1" and weighed 79lbs. It would not have been possible for him to overthrow the guards. He died in 1995 from organic destruction caused by severe malnutrition, complicated by Hepatitis C that he got from a VA blood transfusion. All for having to go fight to save some pacifists.

@wraith: GOOD POINT!
If the only legitimate question is a question you don't know the answer of, then yes, it's a ligitimate question. But I suspected that the answer was "no" your grandfather didn't lead a rebellion against his captors and that he was freed by other means, and so to that affect, yes, there was sarcasm intended. But that doesn't mean that I didn't legitimately want to know you're grandfather's story, and it doesn't take away from the story at all. I'd gladly hear more of your grandfather's story. Stories are important to my people. It's how we transmitted our culture and traditions for gennerations.

A couple hundred years ago, my people were many. We lived life on our terms on our father's land. Then someone invaded, told us it wasn't our land anymore and that we were to take up a new religion, new language and new culture.
We rose up and said NO, we fought to defend ourselves.
We were beaten back, many were killed.
We were displaced from our homes.
Families were seperated.
Family members were killed.
Other bad things happened...
We were many then, and they were few, a few men with soldier's training, horses and weapons of war.
We were many and they were a few men with violence in their hearts.
And they did us violence.
After the violence, they reimbursed us with what they thought was fair (some money, a small piece of land, some "rights" to natural resources)
They put a price on our land.
They put a price my people.
They put a price on my grandad.
They put a price on me.
But I don't have to accept it in my heart.

That said:

If a trained soldier can be shot down
If he can have his weapon taken from him
If he can be imprisoned and starved to 79lbs
Then what of those with no weapons?
What of those with no training?
What of those with no organized resistance?
What of those who had been rounded up by their fellow country-men and sent to the camps?
Starved...
Demoralized...
Seperated from their families...

Why didn't the Japanese rise up in the internment camps here in the US?
Why didn't my people rise up again once subdued?

You told us why your grandfather didn't rise up because he physically couldn't.
A lot of people couldn't.
That's one of the functions of POW camps and Deathcamps, to make sure the prisoners stay there and don't rise up against their captors. To keep the many under the power of the few. Those tactics work, they've worked for centuries, and will probably continue to work so long as there are those willing to use intimidation and violence to get what they want.

My grandad served in the Pacific Theater. Shit was bad over there too.
But he came back, healed, and raised a family.

My grandad came back a pacifist. Pacificist =/= victim.

He taught me that the monsters have human faces just like we do, and that's the scariest part.
He taught me that though those who stood up to defend our people were brave, but they died and you can't raise children if you're dead. If all my people stood up against the invader back then, perhaps I wouldn't be here, perhaps my people would have faded from the memory of the world.
Grandad taught me that you never know how you'll react in any given situation until it happens to you and that no matter how bad something is, or how much someone hurts you and your loved ones, deep down at your core, the only REAL power anyone has over you is power that you give them, that you're only beaten when you submit your will to theirs, but it's a personal choice that every human has to make.

He also taught me that just because someone has something you want, doesn't mean that you should take it from them by threat or force, and then pay them what you deem as fair. That makes you the invader...that makes you the bully.

So I'll ask some non-sarcastic questions...

Does my sarcastic question make you angry? If yes, then why would you give me that power over you?
That which does not kill you makes you stranger.

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ZaphodBurner
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:54 pm

Smenkare wrote: He also taught me that just because someone has something you want, doesn't mean that you should take it from them by threat or force, and then pay them what you deem as fair. That makes you the invader...that makes you the bully...

Does my sarcastic question make you angry? If yes, then why would you give me that power over you?
FANTASTIC reply! I am very curious. Your sarcastic question didn't make me angry but it might have because it sounded ignorant and disrespectful. I can make people here very angry, but I respect them so I try not to.

If people cheat against my community I will cheat to preserve it. Unfortunately, my wife and I tried to play fair and not game the system, and now, after being FUCKED by all of those who did, and being told to hang on, it'll work itself out, we're now told that through the STEP system we'll only be able to buy one ticket. All of those who entered with multiple credit cards and continued to the flood of requests will have that many tickets available to them assuming their turns come on STEP. The Org has already admitted that Burning Man 2010 favors cheaters, gamers, and people who buy tickets from these.

My entire life I've devoted myself to principles of fairness, cooperation and community spirit, and as all fiscally-responsible, fair-playing middle Americans know, all that happens for it is that you get screwed. BRC was a refuge from that, but, it was only a mirage. We have radically included cheaters, gamers, scammers and thieves into our community and people defend the idea that radically including assholes is more important than loyalty to the community.

How would the Bay Area community react if they were told that, in order to enter their city next year, they had to enter and win a lottery? Why should they feel entitled? There are only so many homes in the city, and they should stick to their principles of Radical Inclusiveness, right? Maybe "fresh blood" would make it better this year. It doesn't matter how much of a civic leader you are, or how much taxes you've paid for your community, or whether you're a convicted felon. All you need is a VISA card and a web browser and I PROMISE YOU, Bay Aryans are liberals and they always play fair so there's no need to worry; most San Francisco "veterans" will get to go HOME. Oh, and if you don't win the lottery there's a STEP program, but of course, only one member of your household will be allowed to return.

Don't know but regardless, I'm never going to try to just beat you up and take your ticket, which is what happened to kids my age when we were in high school. You had to be ready to defend yourself in downtown Portland because somebody would try to roll you if they THOUGHT you had tickets to a sold out show.
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Marscrumbs
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by Marscrumbs » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:43 pm

Maybe we can all collectively sell our tickets for $5000 each to scalpers, and move our event to Australia this year.

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Eric
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Post by Eric » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:53 pm

[MOD HAT OFF]

ZaphodBurners post equating the murder of millions of innocent people with a couple of scalpers selling tickets for over face value has me so unbelievably pissed that I've had to sit here debating if posting was even worth it. My Jewish grandparents lost entire branches of their families because they weren't able or lucky enough to get out of Europe in time, and my Grandparents were lucky enough that, as Jews in 1910, they were allowed into America.

Comparing that to someone "overcharging" you?? Blaming the fucking victims ("All for having to go fight to save some pacifists.") because an entire society hunted them down & killed them (and when they did escape and try to fight back, many, especially in anti-Semitic places like Poland, were killed by other partisans because they were Jews)??? They weren't pacifists- they were UNARMED CIVILIANS in a society that had been manipulated to hate them (have you ever heard of pograms? Jews were used to societies in Europe going temporarily crazy & using the full force of government and military against them; how were they supposed to know this was going to be different?)

Yet, somehow in your incredibly delusional mind, someone charging over face value for a ticket to a middle class vacation is equivalent to PEOPLE BEING MURDERED BY THE MILLIONS. Seriously dude, get professional help.

Honestly, I cannot express how unbelievably offensive this is. It's taking all my mental strength not to state this like I really want to, but, basically, go stuff yourself.

Oh- you also should learn some history: Jews & other inmates fought back at Treblinka and Sobibor, as well as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising; unarmed victims against incredible odds.; and thousands fought (and died) as partisans.

[MOD HAT ON]
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Regarding Scammers & Scalpers
Please read above link for all official information.

Eric ShutterSlut
Ass't Editor, BRC Weekly

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