Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

[lemur]

I think that you are yet another person who has created a system that makes sure that he gets a ticket and packages it up very nicely in what he does not recognize are rationalizations.

Well, I DID ask...

I was trying to be polite in spite of the fact that most of the time I post anything, if you respond at all it's some snarky-ass quip, which you've been doing for years. One time, I posted something and you asked whether I ever posted anything interesting. Because of you, Cryptofishist, I quit participating in the e-playa for months.

This time, I formed my questions respectfully and you respond with a half-ass attempt at psychotherapy and a thinly-veiled personal attack. So if you want, I can do it this way:

The topic of the thread is "Positive Suggestions for Fixing What is Obviously Broken" Of the 95 posts in it so far, I don't see ANY "positive suggestion" or anything from you longer than a snarky one-liner shitting on people's ideas and showing your friends how cool you are. Your contribution to this discussion so far boils down to things like:

"And would slow down the lines..."
"Oh, you are just so special that my heart is breaking..."

Other than demonstrating your alpha status over the lesser e-playa veterans who are obviously less hip than you; other than somebody who's only contribution to this discussion is to hack other people's attempt at "positive suggestions";

Other than somebody who's so interesting you've made 27,000 posts to the e-playa, who the fuck do you think you are? Do you have a positive idea to share or are you just here to hack people? Envision a discussion without you in it.

what crypto said isnt a personal attack in my mind..

plenty of other people have been coming up with solutions that would remove all barriers to them personally getting a ticket.. not being able to see that those solutions are in fact selfish ones that arent really consistent with the reality of the situation is a rationalization ..and plenty of people are doing it right now, not just you..

and in my opinion, telling someone they are rationalizing things isnt a personal attack.. veiled or not..

perhaps you recognizing that it might be TRUE is causing you to feel that youve been attacked.. ...but .... there are plenty of other great and awesome biting ways for crypto to have attacked you than to simply say youre rationalizing

...i bet that she is a big enough girl that she would be able to attack you without making thinly veiled attacks, as well!



as for your reply to her.. well.. i guess we can guess she might have hit the nail on the head because you just let off a big stinker of boring attacks, like real ones.. complete with a guilt trip!! a stroll through memory lane.. and even belittling her for being a highly active participant [

surely.. you would be annoyed if we suddenly decided burning since 2005 was a bad thing cuz ya know..particpating a lot is bad...

how could we envision a burning man without YOU there!! but, ..i think youve actually done this one for us.. with many posts talkin about how burning man is gonna miss camps such as yours

[ZaphodBurner]

This thread is called "Positive Suggestion for Fixing What is Obviously Broken," and I have no doubt that what follows has nothing to do with that, and more to do with showing off for Cryptofishist. Ready?

what crypto said isnt a personal attack in my mind..

I guess you assume somebody asked your opinion on the matter, but, how is it relevant to "positive suggestions?"

plenty of other people have been coming up with solutions that would remove all barriers to them personally getting a ticket.. not being able to see that those solutions are in fact selfish ones

... there are plenty of other great and awesome biting ways for crypto to have attacked you than to simply say youre rationalizing

...i bet that she is a big enough girl that she would be able to attack you without making thinly veiled attacks, as well!

Then she's certainly big enough that she doesn't need you helping her, huh? You bet?

The last two posts from you two constitute hugging each other and hacking on others. It's like the only reason you two don't get a room is so that other people are forced to watch how fucking COOL you two are.

So, my camp is selfish for wanting to go to Burning Man. Yep, and proud of it. My wife and I only go every other year. We only entered the lottery once. We didn't buy pre-sale tickets for our camp because we were told they were for gifting. Now we have hundreds of dollars invested, TWO years of collaborative plans, so, yeah, I'm willing to fight -fair- for tickets. I'm willing to fight YOU for tickets. But, if I wanted to be selfish I'd buy tickets from a scalper, yeah?

I have an idea, there, Non-Selfish: Why don't you two sit this one out so somebody else can go and you can blather and hug all day in Cabo or somewhere. Give somebody else a chance to go to this year? No? No? Didn't think so.

p i guess we can guess she might have hit the nail on the head because you just let off a big stinker of boring attacks...

how could we envision a burning man without YOU there!! but, ..i think youve actually done this one for us.. with many posts talkin about how burning man is gonna miss camps such as yours

Well, gosh, I guess I'll NEVER get accepted into your clique now.

*hugs*

[lemur]

i WISH i could get into the cool people clique on eplaya!! ask around, im not in it (yet) ..for reals.. im not.. im probably already plonkd/ignored/foe'd by the clique (hurts my chances!)


and uhh,.. well.. i think crypto is kinda cool and everything but we are hardly best buddies!! i mostly remember her from Tribe .. she might remember me from there (i havnt asked..we dont talk) .... sure itd be cool to get her approval ! cuz i think she is cool and stuff and i like her style.. but i dont really need to show off for her.. and well, i think we are more like strangers in the night who recognize eachothers faces more than we are 'friends' .. hell! ive never even met her! (plenty people here have).. she might not even like me (here or in the real world)

as for responding here.. no.. nobody asked for my opinion.. but! none of us seem to afraid to share ours.. asked or not..

as for responding to this incident? it wasnt so much to defend her as to point out why/how i thought you were being foolish (if you look around i guess you could see that i tend to have a bad habit of doing that)


(and really i wasnt speaking directly about you personally being selfish..i dont know what you do (well now you told us, so i do) i was speaking to..most of the solutions people offer about this ticket situation in general as such.. so you can be on a big boat of people with selfish solutions together without being singled out as such! hooray)

*hugs you*

(and uhh, im not sure if crypto is in to the gay guys anyways.. i would probably complain about the accessible hotel room and we would probably have trouble getting around because i dont drive..and im unsure if she does)



BACK TO BEING POSITIVE !

I will hug anyone who comes to see me on the playa.. even if you wanted to punch me because of things i have said on the ePlaya!!!

you heard that right... hugs even for people who think they dont like me!! equal opportunity hugger.

hugs all around!!

youll all make it to the playa JUST to hug me!

[robrob]

(BTW, it was also alot of fun, but the fun is ALL in cruising it around in BRC, giving the masses rides, and so on, which you have to be at the event to enjoy)

in my experience, many of the big mv owners seem more interested in keeping the masses off their private party yachts, but hey, they built it and brought it...

[lemur]

Sorry. This probably is not what the OP had in mind for this thread, but it does fit at least part of the title "Obviously Broken".

the original poster can be/has been at times.. a bit of a snarky trollster in their days.. (here and on Tribe)

people who know better even noticed this in the first page:

Who the fuck are you and what did you do with Iso?

Did they medicate The Badger?

Damn, now I've seen everything.

Isotopia, of all people, wanting positive solutions? And ideas?


These are dark times.

Dark times indeed.

so yeah.. the TITLE might say stuff about positive suggestions... Isotopia might even claimed that intentions were honest..

but!!! I dont think there is gonna be any hurt feelings on the part of the OP that the thread might have strayed from the original claimed intent.. (which might have been a clever troll.. but was posted on here and tribe without any hint of it being so.. so who knows)

[315and EGO]

I have been watching and thinking. Really angry at some of the stuff I have read, and really inspired by some of the ideas. I believe the solution is in us and we can get this figured out. There are a few things that we could do to help out the infrastructure for the population of the city and exodus. I took a look at last years sat image and tried to find something on reducing the amount of cars. Then I thought CARS!! Took a look through my personal entry and exodus pictures and I would say 30-40% coupes or sedans or something that was not towing, and I think that is conservative. I want to do a statistical look at random blocks over the last 5 or so years to get a good number. Is there any way we could set up a network of traveling burners to reduce the amount of vehicles. I have room for 1 in mine and between the camp 4. Logistics Logistics.... I know but look who we are. I have seen the most amazing stuff put together for this event I know it is not out of our reach.
Another thought. I have traveled to BM on three different routes (for 99% of the journey), I do live in Northern California and have the option. The only route I have not taken is Jungo Rd. The fourth and never spoken of route lies 9 miles north of Gerlach off 447. You turn west on the big gravel road and your 60 miles from US 395 (Via RT turn at the "big T" with lonely rock about 25 in). The road is a great one as long as you take is easy (its flat and wide open for a while keep it on the road). The road pops out in "Viewland" or "Doyle" if you don't make that RT. So there is four routes to this event, Whats the Fernley to Gerlach route 65% of the population? Cedarville the other 30 and 5 from "other". Whats the percentage of people who would leave north and circle around Via secret dirt road or Cedarville to ease the infrastructure during exodus? I understand and I will drive any way as long as my tires are moving forward. Where can I set up a page for all burners from my area to interact on car pooling and a infrastructure easing route? How many theme camps, or camps for that matter are there? If you named a person as speaker of said camps how many people would there be? Can there be an organized discussion between leaders to develop a plan for how we can accomplish something like this? Multi linked Google plus (9 camp leaders to one Represenative), something..... For some reason I really think we can do something like this and I think we have to if this is any sort of reality that we care for, Thanks have a wonderful day.

[ZaphodBurner]

There are a few things that we could do to help out the infrastructure for the population of the city and exodus. I took a look at last years sat image and tried to find something on reducing the amount of cars. Then I thought CARS!!

Hadn't thought of it that way much. An air-conditioned land zeppelin with a half dozen burners and all their stuff, or 4-5 cars, times several thousand. Cars aren't ideal for carpooling to Burning Man because of all the crap you need, but everybody hacks on the RVs, which are likely as not filled with other's people's bikes and trash anyway. Our friend's Dolphin is a 4-cylinder and the other RV in our camp usually has 6 people in it. RVs are less likely to catch on fire or destroy themselves idling for 8 hours in the high desert, either. We have to bring an Exodus Battery for our van.

I'm not familiar enough with the geography to know if an Exodus 2.0 could be made on the other side of Gerlach, for eastbound traffic. That way the west coast crowd goes one way, the east the other, and Gerlach is in the middle.

Or, if car drivers could load distribute their stuff among camp-mate vehicles in Gerlach or somewhere, there could be a satellite parking lot on the playa with a separate exit, and shuttles from there to Center Camp.

The worst but most effective solution would be to charge out the ass for non-camper vehicle parking to encourage people to share resources and to carpool; the sheer effectiveness of which would only be matched by the total default-world suck.

I saw 200,000 people get out of Gettysburg, PA on a 2-lane road in only 4 hours. It can be done.

[big baby jesus]

My feeble attempt at a solution...

How about a date based ticketing system? Your ticket is good for entry only on a certain date.

The theme camps, mutant vehicles, installations, art cars and such that need prior BMORG approval are issued the first batch of tickets when their camp/art is approved. They know how many people they will need to help them with set-up, they know when those people need to be there so they are issued tickets in accordance with their submitted plans. BMORG allows them to buy a single ticket for a later date to accommodate an partner/spouse/donor to come out later in the week.
After that, ticketing priority is based on arrival date. The ticket requests for people that arrive on Monday get priority over Tuesday, Tuesdays over Wednesdays and so on.
You wouldn't need multiple ticket offerings, if two orders come in at the same time and one is for someone arriving on Wednesday and one is requesting entrance on Friday, Wednesday gets the ticket.
Your ticket is only valid for the date of entry, so the gatekeepers have an idea as to how many people will be coming in that day. If you request a Tuesday ticket and show up on Thursday you don't get in.
Allow people to order two tickets so spouses/partners/friends can plan.
There is one ticket price, regardless of entry date.
It rewards self-reliance (be there when you said you would be)
Scalpers aren't much of an issue because it forces them to commit to a certain entry date. If they try and buy Friday tickets, they're of no value Saturday and weekend tickets are the last to be released.

If the event sells out, then it's full of people who have committed to being there all week. The contributors get in. The scalpers and sparkle ponies are at the back of the line.

It might work...

[Capnmike]

I like it.. I have not been "yet" so I was intrigued when I visited the website to learn of your obvious dilemma...
I first tried to imagine selling out "the PlAya..." ok having been to a lot of renaissance faires, parking could be the area of solution... Without changing your fundamental values of the burning man... Rack the cars remotely bus/bike all entrants except pre registered art vehicles... This I say at the obvious risk of not being a part of the group but also without agenda... Set ups of theme camps should be two days prior/take down same...
I did hear back from someone whom I know today that said "Don't go this year" Sad really...
What about since this has gone viral... Do Regional events like in our state of Texas... Then invite participants to the national event which includes their tickets... West coast can be same place, just earlier in the year... Stagger the dates so groupies can attend all or some...

Thank you...

[motskyroonmatick]

Jesus fuck! This thread went from Positive Fixing Broken to Bat Shit Crazy in 2 shakes. Get a grip.

[pink]

Dated tickets are good except for one thing: vehicles breaking down on the way there. Hell, I had to buy a tire on the way and ended up overnight in Truckee last year. We had an RV full of Canadians that was a day or two late due to an unexpected stop in winnemucca. some more camp members had flights cancelled due to the hurricane back east and ended up driving.

I guess if you show up late, you have to provide proof? Copy of repair receipt from winnemucca garage.

That might work.

Maybe

[moonrise]

<snip> Stagger the dates so groupies can attend all or some... <snip>

We have groupies now?

[playfle2]

BM PT ratio soars to 2.7! (person-per-ticket ratio, like it?)

Well, this a worthy problem to solve. I love the burn, mainly for the way people treat each other. But this is not about my thing.

I'm seeing a lot of posts with the notions to raise the number of tickets, lower the number of interested people, or somehow share the time slots available on the playa.

As robrob rhythmically stated:
  We can make it more expensive.
  We can make it less convenient.
  We can make it harder.

1. Building barriers to entry is definitely one way to lower the P-factor. I think lowering the P-factor is the right way to go. But I think that we could just as well attract voyeurs (no offense if you're into that) away from the event. 

2. I'm not hearing any viable notions about raising the T-factor. And Maid Marian seems to have laid down the law in her 2/15 post. No recalls, no expansion. And they've decided to create an elite class of burners (aka directed ticket distribution) to keep the corpus alive for the newbies to flow though.

    http://burningman.com/news/news_story.h ... 818yy=2012, ect.

3. The time-share notions are interesting and I think they also point in a good conceptual direction.

The space-time problem is that we need to have 3-5 people occupy a single human form. Well, physics will tell us that the definition of massive objects is that they cannot occupy the same space at the same time. But wave-like entities can. (bear with me, here it comes)

To the shallow, the event is fabulous and glam-tactic. But why do all those non-committed folks need to suffer dust storms when they could experience it virtually? 

Thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis: I'm proposing that we kick around the following concept ...

A. Call for volunteers, core burners, who are willing to have 3-5 video cams mounted to their head for the duration of the burn. 
B. Sell live video to 3-5 voyeurs (who no longer need to be physically present). Suppose an exclusive, non-transferable voyeur ticket goes for $150. 
C. DPW takes responsibility for setting up relay towers and communications to the Internet backbone. 
D. Volunteers conjure up some secure software. 
E. Someone comes up with the physical head gear. We need about 10,000 sets. At $100 a piece, that's a million. It exists.

Essentially, free tickets for volunteers at the cost of everyones privacy (nothing unusual in these Facebook-Google years).


I hate being soooo serious, so let's have some fun. The cam-crown might be lojacked on.

A tier of voyeur screeners might preview and sanction the video stream (live, like sports; 30 second delay in transmission). Maybe some mystery science theater jazz.

Variations might include the $300-500 goes to the volunteer, who purchased a ticket. That way the burners don't have to ask permission, and BM isn't liable if the voyeurs gets a rotten deal.

And wait a tick, maybe these elite qualified direct-dist-ticket recipients should be required to wear a crown-cam and the free voyeurism tickets are gifted to the 'have nots' (omg did someone really use that term !)

And yeah!, then let some professionals manage the ticket sales.

[playfle2]

So work with the notions, concepts, ideas, something in the virtual real time, pseudo participation category.

The technology exists. Maybe a million people could share the experience.

Which reminds me, I forgot to add that the voyeurs should have some control too. Participation. Perhaps the voyeurs could induce minor pain on the core burner volunteer via the crown-cam, and like bumpers the voyeurs could send the pinball wearing the crown-cam into new and uncharted camp experiences. Ok, that's fantasy. But going out there and then trying to bring it back to realizable might dig up a viable solution.

Keep the spirit alive! I means so much to a lot of us.

[spirited]

Well, Cryptofishie, first off you should know that fishes have no spirit. They are such low beings that they cannot ride the bus at all, they are limited to puddle hopping. Considered by many to anthropologists as the Pre-Neanderthal. (OK fishie..you can roll your eyes now) Many of us have learned to just stay away from the pond to avoid being nipped at by the evil fish.
This may be hard for you and the moderators of this site to understand, but your clique has run off most with your preaching that you know it all, and yet you fail to apply burning man's principals, preferring to bite and drive away, rather than educate and help those who come here seeking information and advice. Only those who bow to you, are those who you and yours treat with any respect.
Yes it's true, Burning Man needs this change that many speak of, but those that are bringing in positive attitudes and doing things for the community, the makers and shakers, the builders of the city, the one's who bring something to add to the City, which is nothing more than a big pot of stone soup. We must be careful not to allow someone to throw something foul into the pot in an attempt at a new style of soup, that assures that everyone will leave with ill feelings, a Mix than pleases no one, and leaves everyone feeling empty.
Yes, everyone at some point may post something that we later regret, but many have taken to referring to this as the "Evil-playa", because of it's unwelcoming atmosphere. I try to avoid using it to provide any useful information as it inevitably turns into a personal put-down atmosphere. Have you noticed that many people come on, with only a few posts? It's not that they are unaware of E-playa, it's that when they Did post, they were attacked, belittled and driven away. This is not cool!
A note for the Moderators: I find it offensive that you allow people to post in such a small font that it is virtually unreadable, even on a Large format screen, especially for those with visual impairments and almost exclusively is a snide, belittling, snipey, childish remark. Another thing I find being used to insult those who visit the e-playa is the small line "you do not have permission to view this" to post biting, hurtful cartoons and pictures that can only be seen if you are logged in. Those that do log in find only a thicker layer of muck, finding that the watery muck runs very deep here, and the insults keep coming. It's time to dry out this muck pond and leave a surface that many can comfortably travel over. They will find many amazing and surprising things on the playa this year. The amount of brainstorming amongst the Burning Man staff and those who build the city has been incredible with the amount of changes and reformation that continues to go on as we weather this huge dust storm. Just like on the playa , when a dust storm blows your camp away, you have to salvage what you can and get creative to rebuild. You pick up what pieces are left, assess what you have to work with and build something new. It may be bent and leaning, it may not look like what you wanted it to, but you have something, and stories that will last a lifetime, and a city will grow. Yes not everyone will get to go this year is true, it's sad. Many of my friends will not be there, but those who have been given a chance to build the city, need help and support to have at least some of this years dreams of Burning Man come true. Yes it is true that only some will be selected , but those with the most experience, the best skills, and that have proven themselves in the past must be chosen. Not everyone can herd cats.
It is not a fun thing for camp and art leaders to have to make a "Schindler's List" for their staff, but we would only be fools to bring in those that will do little, fail to come through and cause the city to fail. For some it means your camp may not be there, but maybe by combining the best of many camps into a new structure, we can move forward. A great advantage for Camps may be the ability to combine their equipment and cut costs while still having a complete, strong camp. Working together is the only way this will work! Fighting, biting and scratching is not the way to go. Yes, mistakes have been made, but everyone has worked very hard and listened to others until it came to the sad conclusion that this is what had to be done. Listening to each others is the only way to save our city. Not by fighting and tearing down the spirit of what Burning Man is. Those who make it to the city this year will have twice as much work as they had before. So those who can't go, please assist your friends who can go to adjust and move forward. Maybe we will end up only being able to go every other year. At least we have had the gift of having been there. Those who can give the most, have to be the ones to go this time. With the speculation of the highest number of virgins ever, it is vital that those who can, share our culture and act as mentors for this new generation. The way for the city to survive is evolving, not by being hit by an asteroid that wipes out everything or a glacier that scrapes the landscape bare, it must change with a flow of improvement. There is much to learn so that we do not repeat our playa mistakes. If you have nothing positive to add to this thread, I ask that you restrain yourself and start another thread. One titled "How to Destroy Burning Man's Spirit".

P.S Moderators This was not a personal attack, only an observation.

[Spadge63]

Here's an idea from a wanna be burgin for next year. Start with offering a set amount of tickets to core members, theme camps, artists etc. first. Then give people who registered this year and didn't get a ticket 2nd priority next year and 3rd priority would be any tickets left over from the first 2. They could have all 3 pricing tiers for each priority and keep STEP and low income tickets in place. After next year, give first timers 3rd priority or put them on a waiting list if they don't get a ticket for the following year. BMORG would have to keep a database for all of this, but it could easily be done. I know by doing this it suggests there be elitism, but from what I've learned so far, I think they need to be there to keep Burning Man an experience like no other.

I have an ounce of hope left that I can be a first timer this year. I was invited by a friend who's a 9-year burner and we are going full steam ahead with our plans.

Have a wonderful weekend everybody

[mdmf007]

I say sell tickets to 2013 in the exodus line - One Person - One Ticket.

[playfle2]

One way to increase the number of tickets is simply to sell 2013 tickets right now. All of them. Maybe even sell 2014 tickets this spring.

This could solve the core burner quota requirement. I'm sure that the various groups could swap purchased tickets to form whole camps this year and whole camps next year.

Then the BM Org could avoid the problems of the direct ticket distrib. PDF and Transformus and others have been through this too. It's ugly.

[playfle2]

@spirited

Thanks for accentuating the positive. There will always be blog sparring, as long as there are people who don't get enough attention at home. But let's drown it out with ideas until we fix 2012. I think this year is headed toward the worst burn ever. Diluted to the point of a fraterity rush week. But as you stated, we need to rise to the challenge. Merging theme camps is a wake up call, let the best new mergers survive. Maybe it'll be better than ever.

Unfortunately, I'm hearing a lot of camps talking about skipping this year. But it's early in the season.

How far does gifting go? Artists, can you get your installations to the playa even if you cannot attend?

[playfle2]

Btw - I'm completely with the notion that the ratio of true believers to newbies should be 80/20. For a lot of reasons.

The problem is "who gets to decide?" Remember high school parties? Heathers covet passing judgment on other people.

This is a classic shout out for "elitist democracy". We might have a politburo blessing a burner caste, but if there is some autonomy among pwoerful elites, that may be the best we can do. I strongly prefer some mechanism whereby the ticket purchases "vote with their actions", but what are we supposed to do, invent an online competition for ticket priority?

[Stephendragonfly]

I had this dream that the BMORG announced a second, simultaneous Burn in New Mexico.
Revealing the real meaning of Fertility 2.0

Non Transferable Tickets were to be sold first to people left out by the random selection process and STEP, second to all the Theme Camps left out of the 10000 ticket secondary sale, and third on the open market.

[BBadger]

Btw - I'm completely with the notion that the ratio of true believers to newbies should be 80/20. For a lot of reasons.

So anyone who has been there once is now a true believer?

[Cabbie]

Idea #1, for 2013 and beyond: Sell tickets on the way out of BRC. You were here this year? You've got your ticket for next year. One person, one ticket.

Idea #2, 2012: Ship the tickets now and let the market do its thing.
Last year, when the sell-out was announced, black market tickets shot up to over a thousand dollars. Within a few weeks, they drifted back down.
Holding off distribution until June drives up uncertainty. Uncertainty drive panic. Panic drives prices. Release the pressure now. Might not make it better, but it could hardly be worse.

Ice Cabbie.

[playfle2]

Here we go - the core issue for the Directed Ticket Distribution committee. Can these mere mortals know the true believers when they sift through the database? Well no, of course not. Can we all admit that it is not going to be fair and try to help their impossible task instead?

Let's hope that those in charge can populate the playa in their own likeness. It's the best humans can do. They have already
stated the algorithm:

http://burningman.com/news/news_story.h ... 818yy=2012

... will use practical criteria ...

1 History – ... must be in our database ...
2 Demonstrated Community Benefit – ... meaningful, provides ... infrastructure, helps ... create its magic
3 LNT – !
4 10 Principles – ... in their entirety.
... to carefully and conscientiously reconstruct the rich tapestry of our community ... based on information ...

Can we help them improve this algorithm? Here's my two rupees worth:

History is good. Okay.

Demonstrated community benefit - well maybe that should come first not second? I prefer the term they use on idealist.org "demonstrated commitment".

LNT, really?! What is it payback time? Is someone venting? That shouldn't be on the list because it is one of the 10 principles. I'm not sure why it's third and the principles is fourth.

[playfle2]

Idea #1, for 2013 and beyond:

Idea #2, 2012: Ship the tickets now and let the market do its thing.

Ice Cabbie.

Except sell all the tickets for 2012 and 2013 now, no restrictions or no rules, and let the market do its thing. Or would that be an even worse disaster? I don't know. I'm drifting back to 'elitist democracy' as the best we can do. Go BMORG go! Good luck, you're gonna need it. Maybe we can send them something.

[quadraspleen]

So anyone who has been there once is now a true believer?

I was. So were the two other "newbies" that went from our crew the year I first went. Why is that so hard to accept? Why does that entitle you to "get" or "like" or "participate" any better than anyone else?

That someone who hasn't been twenty (or even five) times cannot feel the wonder, and sense of community that BM offers (thrusts upon you, even!) is such a crock.

This is part of the bullshit that is making up a lot of the discussion over in the other tickets forum..Why is it that some people feel they are more entitled to be there, or in this case, even feel like they should be there? It's total bullshit, I'm afraid. And what's more, it's exhibiting the EXACT same "elitism" that a lot of ppl are accusing the BMORG of..

This is Burning Man people. I've only been two times (2009, 2011) and this will be my third time. Read my lips; I get it. I love it. I believe in it. I will help to make it happen for myself, my crew, and ANYONE else I can help along the way. I was a newbie in 2009; now I'm not. There are no newbies; there are only people (sure, some stupid ones, too - but it's a city of 55000 ppl - statistics, damn statistics)

FCFS worked; it was the tech hardware that didn't work. Invest in that (I'm in IT; I'm biased ) and make the same system that worked for years really WORK

jake out

[Cabbie]

[quote]...sell all the tickets for 2012 and 2013 now...[/quote]

Me Likee, Playfe!! Would a scalper drop money now for a pay off in two, three, or four years? Maybe some, but fewer! Would a burner buy now for tickets 2, 3, 4, 5 years down the line? I think quite so! Doesn't solve the problem, but it changes the burner:scalper ratio!

[quadraspleen]

...sell all the tickets for 2012 and 2013 now...

Me Likee, Playfe!! Would a scalper drop money now for a pay off in two, three, or four years? Maybe some, but fewer! Would a burner buy now for tickets 2, 3, 4, 5 years down the line? I think quite so! Doesn't solve the problem, but it changes the burner:scalper ratio!

But also means ppl have to come up with waaay more cash now, rather than when they can afford it..Or do we have IOU's? Or, how about shares in BMORG?

One way or another, to have really advanced sales will, again, disadvantage a large section of ppl..No easy answer to this one other than to go back to what worked before...I've almost forgotten why it had to change...But as for the popularity of BM making it a sell-out..we did that guys, you and I (and Youtube and facebook in some cases) but it was US who made it so popular..let's not blame the BMORG for that, eh?

jake out

[AntiM]

I know someone who has lifetime tickets.

[quadraspleen]

I know someone who has lifetime tickets.

Let's hope for all our sakes that they get to use them all up!