ticket situation

[Neek]

Hello,

Apparently, nobody is happy with the ticket situation. What measures can be taken to ensure the BM spirit is still alive ?

The major problem is Supply and Demand. Too many new people want to experience the magic of the burn. Too many old burners want repeat their experience. And probably too many people are needed to set up the event. Marketing 101 says that if you want to bring more customers you need to initiate the first purchase. In this situation, in my opinion, Burning Man organization has to care more for the established burners, not for the new ones, despite the fact the "we welcome new participants". The lottery showed that without vital groups there is no Burning Man. In other words, we do not want to initiate the first purchase. What can be done ?

- Limited or no coverage of the past and future events
- No mass media participation
- Registration to purchase the tickets only for established burners
- Secured entry to BM website
- New people can join the community with a guest pass, available to established burners
- Tickets linked with the name and registration
- Use volunteers from established camps

All above is strictly my personal opinion
Thank you

Neek

[JStep]

Completely against the radical inclusion Principle. "We welcome the stranger." Not "Strangers are welcome to apply but must be vouched for and vetted by a vested member."

[moonrise]

The monied gamers are happy with the ticket situation, they gamed the lottery afterall, so what do they care?
So is the BLM (although they'd probably enjoy money from adding a few thousand more "emnergency" tickets for the extra $'s they'd collect).

[JStep]

The monied gamers are happy with the ticket situation, they gamed the lottery afterall, so what do they care?
So is the BLM (although they'd probably enjoy money from adding a few thousand more "emnergency" tickets for the extra $'s they'd collect).

Not that I think the BLM really cares one way or another, but they do stand to benefit from the possible influx of clueless newbs who think they're at a Phish concert and get picked up for, well, behaving like they're at a Phish concert.

[moonrise]

The monied gamers are happy with the ticket situation, they gamed the lottery afterall, so what do they care?
So is the BLM (although they'd probably enjoy money from adding a few thousand more "emnergency" tickets for the extra $'s they'd collect).

Not that I think the BLM really cares one way or another, but they do stand to benefit from the possible influx of clueless newbs who think they're at a Phish concert and get picked up for, well, behaving like they're at a Phish concert.

Oh yea, I guess the BLM would get that sort of revenue. Not that Phish followers are bad as far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't wreck Burning Man.

I was thinking more along the lines of the 'per head' money from added tickets sold.

JSTEP, congrats on your Regional coordinator position btw! I read your blog, the bus was a smart move! (Maybe name her "Short N Sweet" haha) Anyhow, you might enjoy being on the Reno regional lists (we have BOTH types btw) there's a LOT and I mean a LOT of interesting info flowing through that list! Plenty of local opinion and some from the former pro-Burning Man BLM guy responisible for the permit renewals. Just a thought.
I also know a wide varied mix of burners because I've lived here for 30 years.

[JStep]

JSTEP, congrats on your Regional coordinator position btw! I read your blog, the bus was a smart move! (Maybe name her "Short N Sweet" haha) Anyhow, you might enjoy being on the Reno regional lists (we have BOTH types btw) there's a LOT and I mean a LOT of interesting info flowing through that list! Plenty of local opinion and some from the former pro-Burning Man BLM guy responisible for the permit renewals. Just a thought.
I also know a wide varied mix of burners because I've lived here for 30 years.

Thanks! You're not the first to tell me it's a good idea to join up with the Reno discussion list. Apparently a lot folks get a lot of things done there.


I'll have to check that out!

ETA: I also have no problem with Phish Phans either, I was once a dready Rainbow/Dead Head too, who did a lot of things I wouldn't do at BM for my own security and that of the event. But, we were all 20 once, right?

[gyre]

At least we can agree that Phish isn't really music.

[Mosquitopilate]

The whole thing stinks to high heaven...Unless

[socks]

No it still smells like shit to me

[Chiroptera]

People can not be excluded just because they are not veteran burners. Sure not many of us like the idea of weekend warrior, tourist, frat-house style partiers coming out to the playa just to stare, gock at tits, puke on art cars, wearing their affliction gear and fist pumping. However, hopefully these people will return to their worlds better people. That's what Burning Man is about. Maybe next time they will participate to the fullest extent. Hopefully it is some miracle that opens their hearts and minds. If that is the outcome- then so be it- that's the point. We are all disappointed that many of us are lacking tickets. But exclusion can not be a solution! We were all virgins once- have to keep that in mind.

[mdmf007]

People can not be excluded just because they are not veteran burners. Sure not many of us like the idea of weekend warrior, tourist, frat-house style partiers coming out to the playa just to stare, gock at tits, puke on art cars, wearing their affliction gear and fist pumping. However, hopefully these people will return to their worlds better people. That's what Burning Man is about. Maybe next time they will participate to the fullest extent. Hopefully it is some miracle that opens their hearts and minds. If that is the outcome- then so be it- that's the point. We are all disappointed that many of us are lacking tickets. But exclusion can not be a solution! We were all virgins once- have to keep that in mind.

God ive been there 13 times and I still gawk at tits, barf on thing, fist pump...

[Wrath]

Too many new people want to experience the magic of the burn.

I say not enough.

[BBadger]

Too many new people want to experience the magic of the burn.

I say not enough.

I support this comment. There can never be too many, only not enough tickets to satisfy the demand.

[Chiroptera]

God ive been there 13 times and I still gawk at tits, barf on thing, fist pump...

Haha! I like gawking at tits too and I am a chick. But no mention that you wear Affliction gear. As for fist pumping.... Maybe not the kind I am thinkin of. My point was that hopefully the people that everyone is so mad at "getting my tickets" that have not gone before will bring the spirit back to the real world. This is way more important than missing a year. I have been 9 times- went in 96, 97 and then back in 2005. Brought my mom out last year as a repayment for everything she has shown and taught me. It was one of the most amazing moments of my life and I have never seen her happier. Have been involved in large camps including those situated on the esplanade and large and small art cars. Always try to show the "newbies" a good time or take care of them when they show up without supplies. Of course I want to go! So does my mom and my husband who's gone 17 times. But I do not have a right to go. No more than the frat-boy type I was talking about. Somehow we will get there! I am sure of it. If not, then we will go next year when hopefully some resolution can be employed. We live in Reno and go to the Black Rock to hike and scout for rocks all the time. That place, burning man or not, is always in our hearts- so the best resolution I can see is try your hardest at getting tickets,keep a positive attitude (it is frustrating), and stop bitching. Wait and see what happens. Maybe the people who got tickets are going for a grander reason...

[GenghisComm]

I have been wishing to experience Burning Man for at least the past 10 years -- wishing to experience what my friends have shown me in their playa photos. But I've only recently developed my living situation and financial means to do so. I'm an aerial acrobatic performer, so a lot of my friends are veteran burners who participate in the circus theme camps. I would love to perform with them and share skills with other aerialists. I wish I was a year earlier so I could have bought my ticket by now. From what I've read here, it seems like getting a ticket is unlikely.

[Stephendragonfly]

@ Ghengis,
Don't give up now, there is still a half a year before the burn and a full three months before tickets are even released. Keep in touch with your network of friends. You never know, sometimes miracles do happen.

[glitter-mouse]

What measures can be taken to ensure the BM spirit is still alive ?

implying it's alive at all.

[BigDog]

Buying tickets via Lottery has really struck a chord through the burner community. I know when I received the first notice of the "Lottery Ticket Distribution", it sent a chill down my spine. I thought, I may not be able to go this year!!! What if my wife wants to go? Wow, I may need to buy four tickets, just so I have a chance at one or two tickets. I thought, well if I get four, I can always sell them for double and break even on my two tickets. But, as I thought about it more, I thought I only really need one ticket now and if my wife can go, I guess the Open Sale will allow me to pick up the extra ticket I might need at a later date.

Things have really changed since then. There has been a lot of ideas and thoughts put forth here in eplaya. Please forgive me if I state the obvious, but me, a simple, married burner actually thought about buying more tickets than I really need! I thought about having several non-burner friends buy tickets for me so I would ensure I got my one or two tickets! It is not out of the question to think that others not only thought about this, but actually did it. How many newbies who received tickets are actually shill buyers, just waiting for the right time to resell their tickets for a profit?

It's economics ... Supply and Demand. But in this case, Supply has been hijacked by a Lottery Distribution System. In a perfect world the simple answer is to increase Supply to meet or exceed Demand. I do not know if that is possible, but we should all do what is necessary in order to convince the BLM to allow BM to increase its population in order to satisfy Demand.

I realize that the duty of any government agency is to say "no". But in this case with the world wide popularity of BM, the diverse attendance from U.S. citizens, and all the positive publicity and public service that comes out of BM, surly we can band together and mount a campaign to help persuade the proper Congressman to convince the BLM to allow BM to increase its population according to attendee Demand.

Another way to match Supply and Demand is to increase the price structure in order to slow or decrease Demand. This is obviously not what we want to hear. The Dutch Auction method that others have mentioned elsewhere in eplaya would potentially work with this price increase.

Another idea is to tie entry times to ticket prices. Very simply, earlier entry costs more.
Saturday entry $$$$$$. Sunday entry $$$$. Monday entry $$. Tuesday entry $.

For the record, last year I purchased two tickets in June. My wife could not make it, so I gifted my extra ticket to a couple in Nixon as I was passing through. Some new burners I camped by bought their tickets in July, the week before the sell out.

I really think the change to the Lottery Distribution System sent a much bigger scare through the BM community than was anticipated and added to the enormous growth in ticket demand this year. My opinion is that this huge ticket demand growth is a false indicator of actual potential attendance. Just my two cents on the subject...

[dannylauda]

i totally i agree with you, id like to add something...the lottery could have worked with a 48 hours open window to register not 1 month. if you care to go you are online at the time of the selling start.
being able to apply for 1 month its just not right, its obvious that you have this demand after last year sell out.
really not smart.

[BBadger]

i totally i agree with you, id like to add something...the lottery could have worked with a 48 hours open window to register not 1 month. if you care to go you are online at the time of the selling start.
being able to apply for 1 month its just not right, its obvious that you have this demand after last year sell out.
really not smart.

Give me a fucking break.

The only thing a short duration registration window would have done is caught some people off guard, and if you're trying to increase your odds through such outright deceptive tactics then, quite frankly, you need to be blacklisted from the event.

The lottery was designed to allow all people who wished to acquire tickets a fair chance in getting their tickets. It is the same idea behind maintaining fair voting rights for all citizens. If we're going to compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets, then Burning Man needs to be ended.

[vargaso]

i totally i agree with you, id like to add something...the lottery could have worked with a 48 hours open window to register not 1 month. if you care to go you are online at the time of the selling start.
being able to apply for 1 month its just not right, its obvious that you have this demand after last year sell out.
really not smart.

Give me a fucking break.

The only thing a short duration registration window would have done is caught some people off guard, and if you're trying to increase your odds through such outright deceptive tactics then, quite frankly, you need to be blacklisted from the event.

The lottery was designed to allow all people who wished to acquire tickets a fair chance in getting their tickets. It is the same idea behind maintaining fair voting rights for all citizens. If we're going to compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets, then Burning Man needs to be ended.

Eh, if the poster was complaining that he'd missed the 48 hour window, you'd be admonishing him that he wasn't self-reliant enough. I agree, a shorter window is better.

[dannylauda]

i totally i agree with you, id like to add something...the lottery could have worked with a 48 hours open window to register not 1 month. if you care to go you are online at the time of the selling start.
being able to apply for 1 month its just not right, its obvious that you have this demand after last year sell out.
really not smart.

Give me a fucking break.

The only thing a short duration registration window would have done is caught some people off guard, and if you're trying to increase your odds through such outright deceptive tactics then, quite frankly, you need to be blacklisted from the event.

The lottery was designed to allow all people who wished to acquire tickets a fair chance in getting their tickets. It is the same idea behind maintaining fair voting rights for all citizens. If we're going to compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets, then Burning Man needs to be ended.

wow...dont need to heat up so much...its just a point of view...honestly if the window was shorter they could have controlled it better, reopening it if they needed to.
and they are not taking anybody off guard since they announce the sale in advance like they did in the previous years.

Buying tickets via Lottery has really struck a chord through the burner community. I know when I received the first notice of the "Lottery Ticket Distribution", it sent a chill down my spine. I thought, I may not be able to go this year!!! What if my wife wants to go? Wow, I may need to buy four tickets, just so I have a chance at one or two tickets. I thought, well if I get four, I can always sell them for double and break even on my two tickets. But, as I thought about it more, I thought I only really need one ticket now and if my wife can go, I guess the Open Sale will allow me to pick up the extra ticket I might need at a later date.

Things have really changed since then. There has been a lot of ideas and thoughts put forth here in eplaya. Please forgive me if I state the obvious, but me, a simple, married burner actually thought about buying more tickets than I really need! I thought about having several non-burner friends buy tickets for me so I would ensure I got my one or two tickets! It is not out of the question to think that others not only thought about this, but actually did it. How many newbies who received tickets are actually shill buyers, just waiting for the right time to resell their tickets for a profit?

It's economics ... Supply and Demand. But in this case, Supply has been hijacked by a Lottery Distribution System. In a perfect world the simple answer is to increase Supply to meet or exceed Demand. I do not know if that is possible, but we should all do what is necessary in order to convince the BLM to allow BM to increase its population in order to satisfy Demand.

I realize that the duty of any government agency is to say "no". But in this case with the world wide popularity of BM, the diverse attendance from U.S. citizens, and all the positive publicity and public service that comes out of BM, surly we can band together and mount a campaign to help persuade the proper Congressman to convince the BLM to allow BM to increase its population according to attendee Demand.

Another way to match Supply and Demand is to increase the price structure in order to slow or decrease Demand. This is obviously not what we want to hear. The Dutch Auction method that others have mentioned elsewhere in eplaya would potentially work with this price increase.

Another idea is to tie entry times to ticket prices. Very simply, earlier entry costs more.
Saturday entry $$$$$$. Sunday entry $$$$. Monday entry $$. Tuesday entry $.

For the record, last year I purchased two tickets in June. My wife could not make it, so I gifted my extra ticket to a couple in Nixon as I was passing through. Some new burners I camped by bought their tickets in July, the week before the sell out.

I really think the change to the Lottery Distribution System sent a much bigger scare through the BM community than was anticipated and added to the enormous growth in ticket demand this year. My opinion is that this huge ticket demand growth is a false indicator of actual potential attendance. Just my two cents on the subject...

thats what i was quoting in my first post if you read the last 2 lines you understand what i mean.
meaning that, many people that don't know if they are going, they applied anyway with the idea of reselling the ticket at a higher price (like last year) in case not going. easy.

im not hoping to have more chance to get a ticket I just think the strategy doesn't work and...it didn't.

[Eric]

It's economics ... Supply and Demand. But in this case, Supply has been hijacked by a Lottery Distribution System. In a perfect world the simple answer is to increase Supply to meet or exceed Demand. I do not know if that is possible, but we should all do what is necessary in order to convince the BLM to allow BM to increase its population in order to satisfy Demand.

It is not, and there are plenty of threads discussing the issues around increasing the population. We don't live in a perfect world, we live in reality.

The supply was not "hijacked" by the lottery, it was completely and utterly overwhelmed by the demand. Yes, some of that demand was people trying to game the system, but the simple fact is that the event has more people wanting to attend than the surrounding infrastructure will support & the BLM is willing to allow.

The information that's come out about future permitting has the Org wanting to increase the population, but even under that scenario it would only increase to 70,000 by 2016, which wouldn't even be enough for this year. The event has simply hit the tipping point in popularity & and there is no way that everyone who wants to attend will be able to attend.

As for the lottery- it was a solution to give everyone as fair a chance as possible in light of last years sell-out. The problem is people don't want "fair", they want a ticket (these are the people who's interpretation of "fair" means "I get an advantage"); no matter want system the Org uses next year or from here on out there will be complaints from the people who don't get one. All BMorg can do is try to make it fair, there's no way with the demand they can make it so everyone can attend.

[vargaso]

It's economics ... Supply and Demand. But in this case, Supply has been hijacked by a Lottery Distribution System. In a perfect world the simple answer is to increase Supply to meet or exceed Demand. I do not know if that is possible, but we should all do what is necessary in order to convince the BLM to allow BM to increase its population in order to satisfy Demand.

It is not, and there are plenty of threads discussing the issues around increasing the population. We don't live in a perfect world, we live in reality.

The supply was not "hijacked" by the lottery, it was completely and utterly overwhelmed by the demand. Yes, some of that demand was people trying to game the system, but the simple fact is that the event has more people wanting to attend than the surrounding infrastructure will support & the BLM is willing to allow.

The information that's come out about future permitting has the Org wanting to increase the population, but even under that scenario it would only increase to 70,000 by 2016, which wouldn't even be enough for this year. The event has simply hit the tipping point in popularity & and there is no way that everyone who wants to attend will be able to attend.

As for the lottery- it was a solution to give everyone as fair a chance as possible in light of last years sell-out. The problem is people don't want "fair", they want a ticket (these are the people who's interpretation of "fair" means "I get an advantage"); no matter want system the Org uses next year or from here on out there will be complaints from the people who don't get one. All BMorg can do is try to make it fair, there's no way with the demand they can make it so everyone can attend.

I think in scenarios where scarcity/shortages occur, people are most riled by systems whose outcomes appear, whether in fact or not, to be determined by conscious human interference. Something like a first-come first-served system is pure luck of the draw, and while there will be people who will be upset because they didn't get a ticket, it's hard to point a finger at the BMORG and say it's not fair, particularly if they move to an identity-based non-transferable ticket which makes it harder to scalp. This year, the combination of the lottery and the decision to cancel the March open sale and allocate those tickets to theme camps, makes it appear that the BMORG is influencing the outcome more than perhaps they actually are.

[BBadger]

(quote)

Eh, if the poster was complaining that he'd missed the 48 hour window, you'd be admonishing him that he wasn't self-reliant enough.

Eh, that is entirely unrelated to the reply at best, and possibly qualifies as an ad hominem.

[Eric]

I think in scenarios where scarcity/shortages occur, people are most riled by systems whose outcomes appear, whether in fact or not, to be determined by conscious human interference. Something like a first-come first-served system is pure luck of the draw, and while there will be people who will be upset because they didn't get a ticket, it's hard to point a finger at the BMORG and say it's not fair, particularly if they move to an identity-based non-transferable ticket which makes it harder to scalp.

FcFs is not "luck of the draw"- it depends on how good your computer is, the fact that you're able to get a day off work to sit at a computer trying to get online, how fast you can actually get online (not everyone has cable connections), if you're using multiple computers to try to gain access, that your region of the country isn't hit by a power outage or "act of god"... There are a million variables to first come-first served that can ensure people don't have an equal chance.

The other issue is that without a completely non-transferable ticket (except through something like STEP) you would still have scalpers,and FcFs gives them way more chances to get most of the tickets; once the tickets are released you'll still have counterfeiters selling to people who are desperate enough to believe they found a way in. As for the non-transferable tickets: we're already hearing from people who have friends who got STEP tickets but want to transfer them- people only like a "solution" when it doesn't affect them getting a ticket.

FcFs will also lead to a sell-out in one day, especially after this year & last year. Can you imagine the explosion of complaints then?

The lottery isn't working like they hoped, FcFs is no longer viable. I agree they'll have to come up with something better, but I honestly don't think a system that ensures a one-day sell out is it.

[dannylauda]

The supply was not "hijacked" by the lottery, it was completely and utterly overwhelmed by the demand. Yes, some of that demand was people trying to game the system, but the simple fact is that the event has more people wanting to attend than the surrounding infrastructure will support & the BLM is willing to allow.

i don't believe thats right, last year they sell out in july 50000 tickets, i believe to have read that there were about 80000 subscription for lottery...dont you think is a bit awkward??

[vargaso]

(quote)

Eh, if the poster was complaining that he'd missed the 48 hour window, you'd be admonishing him that he wasn't self-reliant enough.

Eh, that is entirely unrelated to the reply at best, and possibly qualifies as an ad hominem.

It's entirely related, in that something like a 48-hour window that was announced in advance would in no way be applying "deceptive tactics," and I'd literally be willing to bet a 1000 dollars that the regulars here would admonish any and all people who posted that they thought the window was "unfair." Also, you proclaimed that dannylauda or someone else suggesting a 48-hour window should be "blacklisted from the event." How is that not far worse than my suggestion you'd probably give some people shit?

[vargaso]

I think in scenarios where scarcity/shortages occur, people are most riled by systems whose outcomes appear, whether in fact or not, to be determined by conscious human interference. Something like a first-come first-served system is pure luck of the draw, and while there will be people who will be upset because they didn't get a ticket, it's hard to point a finger at the BMORG and say it's not fair, particularly if they move to an identity-based non-transferable ticket which makes it harder to scalp.

FcFs is not "luck of the draw"- it depends on how good your computer is, the fact that you're able to get a day off work to sit at a computer trying to get online, how fast you can actually get online (not everyone has cable connections), if you're using multiple computers to try to gain access, that your region of the country isn't hit by a power outage or "act of god"... There are a million variables to first come-first served that can ensure people don't have an equal chance.

The other issue is that without a completely non-transferable ticket (except through something like STEP) you would still have scalpers,and FcFs gives them way more chances to get most of the tickets; once the tickets are released you'll still have counterfeiters selling to people who are desperate enough to believe they found a way in. As for the non-transferable tickets: we're already hearing from people who have friends who got STEP tickets but want to transfer them- people only like a "solution" when it doesn't affect them getting a ticket.

FcFs will also lead to a sell-out in one day, especially after this year & last year. Can you imagine the explosion of complaints then?

The lottery isn't working like they hoped, FcFs is no longer viable. I agree they'll have to come up with something better, but I honestly don't think a system that ensures a one-day sell out is it.

Internet connection speed, laptop model, geographical location, those things don't matter in something like an online ticketing queue. As we've seen from the STEP registration, there is no common pattern among the people getting in early. One guy was from Australia, another did it from his phone, etc. The internet works in mysterious way. Seriously though, as long as your device is powered up and you're connected to the internet somehow, all things are equal. As for time off of work, in a FCFS (thank you for the acronym!) scenario, it'd all be over in a matter of minutes.

For these reasons, I believe an identity-based, non-transferrable ticket obtained in a FCFS queue is the best way to go. The system variables are few and known, people who did not get tickets right away could only blame luck and demand.

[BBadger]

Eh, if the poster was complaining that he'd missed the 48 hour window, you'd be admonishing him that he wasn't self-reliant enough.

Eh, that is entirely unrelated to the reply at best, and possibly qualifies as an ad hominem.

It's entirely related, in that something like a 48-hour window that was announced in advance would in no way be applying "deceptive tactics," and I'd literally be willing to bet a 1000 dollars that the regulars here would admonish any and all people who posted that they thought the window was "unfair." Also, you proclaimed that dannylauda or someone else suggesting a 48-hour window should be "blacklisted from the event." How is that not far worse than my suggestion you'd probably give some people shit?

You entirely miss the point Vargaso. WHOOOOSH. It flew completely over your head. Let me spell it out for you:

(1) Person 1 suggests some action A
(2) Person 2 suggests Person 1 has intent X because of action A
(3) Person 3 claims that Person 2 would ridicule Person 1 given action A

Tell me how is Person 3's claim is related to (2)?

The story gets better too!

(4) Person 3 uses "tu quoque" as a retort.