Plug and Play Mutant Vehicle

Major Krash · Post by **Major Krash** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:07 pm

I would want a very clear understanding of what happens if one of their guests starts doing something that needs to get them thrown off...lots of potential liabilities here also (as I am sure you know, being a ten year veteran MV owner). Personally, I would not do this (even for free). I would feel horrible not picking folks up that needed a lift...YMMV

BBadger · Post by **BBadger** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:20 pm

Oh the complicated web we weave. It's like following "thou shalt not kill" and having to decide between killing a gunman before he kills other people, or staying "pure" and not being involved. Is it for the "greater good" to rent this vehicle out for a day or two, or fundamentally compromising your principles, or both?

What more, what if someone not from an PnP camp asked to rent the vehicle, with the same cost/conditions, but to transport physically disabled people? Is the decision now justified because you think you're doing it for a good cause? The vehicle is still being "rented" out in either case. Are the principles more important than pragmatic decisions?

Not for me to decide.

Moral dilemma aside, I'd be more concerned about liability. Are the operators going to be trustworthy? What if they damage your vehicle? You better get all this in writing if you decide to rent that vehicle out.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:28 pm

BBadger wrote:Oh the complicated web we weave. It's like following "thou shalt not kill" and having to decide between killing a gunman before he kills other people, or staying "pure" and not being involved. Is it for the "greater good" to rent this vehicle out for a day or two, or fundamentally compromising your principles, or both?

What more, what if someone not from an PnP camp asked to rent the vehicle, with the same cost/conditions, but to transport physically disabled people? Is the decision now justified because you think you're doing it for a good cause? The vehicle is still being "rented" out in either case. Are the principles more important than pragmatic decisions?

Not for me to decide.

Moral dilemma aside, I'd be more concerned about liability. Are the operators going to be trustworthy? What if they damage your vehicle? You better get all this in writing if you decide to rent that vehicle out.

They wouldn't need to rent an MV for disabled. DMV gives permits for disabled burners. I doubt renting a MV would be much of an issue, if the customer wasn't already making money off other burners.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:20 pm

TomServo wrote:
BBadger wrote:Oh the complicated web we weave. It's like following "thou shalt not kill" and having to decide between killing a gunman before he kills other people, or staying "pure" and not being involved. Is it for the "greater good" to rent this vehicle out for a day or two, or fundamentally compromising your principles, or both?

What more, what if someone not from an PnP camp asked to rent the vehicle, with the same cost/conditions, but to transport physically disabled people? Is the decision now justified because you think you're doing it for a good cause? The vehicle is still being "rented" out in either case. Are the principles more important than pragmatic decisions?

Not for me to decide.

Moral dilemma aside, I'd be more concerned about liability. Are the operators going to be trustworthy? What if they damage your vehicle? You better get all this in writing if you decide to rent that vehicle out.
They wouldn't need to rent an MV for disabled. DMV gives permits for disabled burners. I doubt renting a MV would be much of an issue, if the customer wasn't already making money off other burners.

I gather it's more complicated than that.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Such delicate flowers. A camp wants to patronize artists, and offered grant money, presumably negotiated off-playa. How is this so complicated, or different from what the org does?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:45 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
TomServo wrote:
BBadger wrote:Oh the complicated web we weave. It's like following "thou shalt not kill" and having to decide between killing a gunman before he kills other people, or staying "pure" and not being involved. Is it for the "greater good" to rent this vehicle out for a day or two, or fundamentally compromising your principles, or both?

What more, what if someone not from an PnP camp asked to rent the vehicle, with the same cost/conditions, but to transport physically disabled people? Is the decision now justified because you think you're doing it for a good cause? The vehicle is still being "rented" out in either case. Are the principles more important than pragmatic decisions?

Not for me to decide.

Moral dilemma aside, I'd be more concerned about liability. Are the operators going to be trustworthy? What if they damage your vehicle? You better get all this in writing if you decide to rent that vehicle out.
They wouldn't need to rent an MV for disabled. DMV gives permits for disabled burners. I doubt renting a MV would be much of an issue, if the customer wasn't already making money off other burners.
I gather it's more complicated than that.

Last I checked, all you need is a disabled placard.

ok...a little more complicated..but not really
"The criteria for licensing a Disabled Vehicle include:

Providing a city or state issued disabled placard with the accompanying identification card. The name on the card must match the applicant.
A standard of safety for your vehicle and its occupants
Physical inspection of the vehicle on the playa
Past behavior
Current behavior (violating driving rules at Burning Man is cause for revocation of your license, impound of the vehicle, and possible ejection from the event)"

lemur · Post by **lemur** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:32 am

Bob wrote:Such delicate flowers. A camp wants to patronize artists, and offered grant money, presumably negotiated off-playa. How is this so complicated, or different from what the org does?

i dont think people are discussing what the org does.

i think people are discussing what they think the community does.

lemur · Post by **lemur** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:49 am

as the community is concerned.. it appears, in a majority of cases on 'plug and play' issues, that they dont give a fuck what the LLC/borg does.

YES, WE KNOW. THE BORG DOES THIS PLUG AND PLAY SHIT ALL THE TIME.. a lot, in fact 100% of their stuff is like this

but the community isnt the borg..

and remember what your mommy said? "IF YOUR FRIENDS ALL JUMPED OFF A BRIDGE, WOULD YOU?

and i guess you could be like 'WHY SHOULD WE DO ANYTHING THEY SAY.. WHEN THEY DONT DO IT THEMSELVES?'

BUT.. it isnt so easy for many people to change their feeling on this one...because they have developed this insane aversion to taking profits or money for doing things that they largely do out of the kindness of their hearts

delicate, or not.. a lot of folks tend to enjoy this insane non-commodified world

and yes, we can call it 'FUNDRAISING' or 'GRANTS' or 'PATRONS' or 'RENTING' or 'COMMISSIONING' whatever obfuscating word we want,... we all got access to a thesaurus ... but in the end.. yep, seemingly lots of people are against this whole 'TAKING MONEY TO DO SHIT ID NORMALLY DO FOR FREE' thing.

whether its what the BORG/ORG/LLC does or not..

the community aint the ORG/BORG/LLC ...

and we can be reminded every day that the LLC itself produces a plug and play event.. and that participants taking money is no different from what they do... and that the LLC is a buncha hypocrites for saying that we shouldnt turn the event into a commodity when they are actually turning it into one... but i dont think it would change one bit how many in the community feel about this issue.

He who climbs high mountains, laughs at all tragic plays and tragic realities.

You tell me, "Life is hard to bear." But why should you have your pride in the morning and your resignation in the evening?

Life is hard to bear: but do not pretend to be so delicate! We are all of us fine sumpter asses and she-asses.

What do we have in common with the rose-bud, which trembles because a drop of dew lies on it?

It is true we love life; not because we are wont to live, but because we are wont to love.

There is always some madness in love. But there is always, also, some method in madness.

we may be delicate little flowers, ... with some insane love for an insane hypocritical belief pushed on us by a marketing division of a for profit company..

but !!! ya know.. there may be a method to that madness.

and whether the LLC does it or not.. the love many people in the community have for this insane decommodification thing remains..... its crazy.. love works that way!! ..even when you know shit is fucked,.. it remains.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:15 am

What the Org does is irrelevant to this discussion. The Org works year round, to make sure Burning Man can happen. The org on the playa is still a functioning, working entity. The Org is hardly lazy and I would NOT consider a Plug & Play...since there is a shit load of work put in by everyone within the org, before they go to sleep in their RVs.

driver8 · Post by **driver8** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:21 am

It seems BM has evolved over the last 5 years, especially - into an experience that can be packaged and sold. It has become predictable (not that that's a bad thing) and that makes it is easy to market; you pay this amount and this is what you will get in trade. That's just the way it is. If you want radical spontaneity (i suppose it still exists out there in way of accidents) - this is not the place for you. Personally, predictability doesn't repulse me. I like things that are certain and included a real possibility for surprise in way of happy accidents. So they way things have become suits me. I have no complaints.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:48 am

driver8 wrote:It seems BM has evolved over the last 5 years, especially - into an experience that can be packaged and sold. It has become predictable (not that that's a bad thing) and that makes it is easy to market; you pay this amount and this is what you will get in trade. That's just the way it is. If you want radical spontaneity (i suppose it still exists out there in way of accidents) - this is not the place for you. Personally, predictability doesn't repulse me. I like things that are certain and included a real possibility for surprise in way of happy accidents. So they way things have become suits me. I have no complaints.

Obviously you have lots of company.

Post by **trilobyte** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:08 am

Good point, Bob. If there aren't any catches (ie exclusive use or numerous private cruises), then there isn't much of a difference. Somebody (whether it's the org, a single benefactor, or a thousand contributors to a kickstarter campaign) supporting art on its own merit, because they think it's awesome and they want to see it on the playa… is a good great thing. Hell, we need more of it. But if the support is conditional and depends on the artist making the art exclusive access during any part of the event, the waters get gray and murky fast. Ultimately the decision is up to the artist & crew - the experience they want to have and the arrangement that they're comfortable with.

Post by **Savannah** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:44 am

driver8 wrote:It seems BM has evolved over the last 5 years, especially - into an experience that can be packaged and sold. It has become predictable (not that that's a bad thing) and that makes it is easy to market; you pay this amount and this is what you will get in trade. That's just the way it is. If you want radical spontaneity (i suppose it still exists out there in way of accidents) - this is not the place for you. Personally, predictability doesn't repulse me. I like things that are certain and included a real possibility for surprise in way of happy accidents. So they way things have become suits me. I have no complaints.

"This is not the place for you"--by "this", do you mean Black Rock City? Or do you mean the Plug & Play experience? Because if you meant Black Rock City, I happen to disagree. Not knowing what's going to happen to me out there on any given day is actually just about my favorite thing about the Burn. There is still that level of unpredictability for those who want it.

Now, opting for the Plug & Play experience . . . that, of course, has a greater likelihood of being structured or predictable.

It sounds like you already know what you want to do, and are seeking validation.

If it's the right thing for you, you don't really need that.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:03 am

@driver8, it sounds to me like maybe you need to leave your MV at home and actually interact with people in BRC. If you do not experience spontaneity during TTITD, I feel great sorrow for your loss.

Post by **Savannah** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:20 am

I've just noticed something interesting in the Mutant Vehicle pages:

Mutant Vehicle Criteria

In order to be eligible for a Mutant Vehicle license you must satisfy ALL of the following criteria:

There are five main points the DMV considers when reviewing your vehicle.

1. Level of Mutation
Mutate your vehicle to the point that it is not recognizable as a street vehicle. A radically mutated vehicle will not resemble or represent a car, truck, golf cart or any other readily identifiable street vehicle. Is the vehicle radically mutated or is the exterior a temporary decoration that required little or no actual mutation of the base vehicle?

2. Interactivity
Provide an interactive experience for participants of Black Rock City. Interactivity is defined as an opportunity for any BRC citizen to participate in some activity offered by your vehicle. The theme and/or size of the vehicle is what's considered here. Do you entertain a crowd? Have plenty of room for riders? Provide a service to the community via your vehicle? Include an interactive element?

3. Safety
Depending on the size and style of your vehicle, some or all of the following may apply: The vehicle must be able to maintain a steady speed of five MPH (the speed limit in Black Rock City) or less. Brakes must be in good working order. The vehicle should have sturdy side railings and stair railings. There should be no sharp or protruding objects. A fire extinguisher is highly recommended. Keeping a first aid kit on board is just plain smart. The vehicle should also have a safe access area and procedures for loading and unloading passengers.

4. Lighting
For vehicles seeking a night license, basic requirements must be met: The rear, front AND sides must be lit. All vehicle extremities must be lit. Any trailer hitch or dangerous area of the vehicle must be lit. Anywhere someone would walk, step, or climb on your vehicle should be lit, especially stairs and ladders.

5. Sound
The DMV has a new Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles. It is important that you know it. Please go here to review the policy. All vehicles driving in Black Rock City must follow the sound policy.

Whether or not one one gives rides to strangers--because weight limits and transporting friends (old or new) are are considerations, regardless of whether one is a hired vehicle--a Mutant Vehicle still needs to be Interactive. If rides are not given, other
interactivity/service/gift/performance/music/etc are supposed to be part of the voyage. I can certainly see why.

(If it's music, oh for the love of God, please let it be interesting. There's nothing worse than a Mobile Posing Unit that doesn't give rides AND has crappy music.)

Dr Helix · Post by **Dr Helix** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:46 am

I looked through all the responses and didn't see this (If I'm redundant, I apologize) so I'm saying it here. You better load up with liability insurance if you're going to take money (aka rent) for your MV. Won't matter how you structure it, if someone gets hurt they will find that out and you're the one they're coming after. Hell they've tried to sue the ones that are free. Money changes status. Good luck.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:00 pm

This just hit me...

With what COMMODITY they're BUYING from you (exclusive use of your MV) for the MONEY they'll spend, sounds like they could build their own MV. Or 2. But hey, why create, why should they worry about following the 10 principles when you can PAY YOUR HELP TO SUPPLY THEIR COMMODITIES TO GENERATE THEIR PROFIT?

Sorry for yelling... But you''re not only selling yourself out, you're telling these people "We don't care if you do no work, or bring something of value tot he playa, as long as you buy it". You're selling those who were ever told "No you cannot commodify the burn" down the river.

When I throught this thru, I almost lost my lunch. It kindasorta says EXACTLY what some of these non-burner PnP camps are about... e.g...

YOU are my SERVANTS and I shall pay YOU along with our STAFF to make OUR BUSINESS RUN. And if you say no, I'LL PAY SOMEONE ELSE. You don't want to get rich? I bet we will find someone who WILL TAKE OUR MONEY!

Make our own work, your own art, your own MV? Screw that - that's what we pay you for.

Ya know... As a business venture - I'm with Doc. I'd do one better - start my own PnP experience. If someone else can commodify the burn and get a pass, why can't I? I could build a model, get a few million in investor capital, and turn it back around in a few years... Heck yeah!

As a burning man gig - I am abhorrently disgusted. Not only allowing, but WELCOMING someone would commodify the burn itself, especially after enforcing Decommodification to we "po' foke" burners...

Ya know... I still remember the good old days when the borg would take someone to task (or court) for trying to do something like a photoshoot on playa when the burn was happening, for which they *might* make a buck or 2 post event. That USED to be the rules... from the newest burgin to the first campers, and everyone inbetween - we all followed.

lemur · Post by **lemur** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:06 pm

its tobad all the jawesome true stuff you just said BBS.. is easily brushed aside by people saying "yeah.. but the LLC does it with funded projects"

..or "they allow this now"

..

fuck yer principles!! will replace "fuck yer day" in 2012.

cuz like... the LLC approves of this now, and the LLC does it themselves, so yeah!! fuck yer principles!!!

fuck decommodification!!! the LLC does..

AMI RITE?!

(ok no not really.. i think this shit is stupid and even though it seems like the original poster is already sending off paypal/bank account numbers and drawing up a contract.. i still suggest he say "NO, FUCK OFF OFF ASSHOLES"... but yep, yer right, if they dont get him to take the money, theyll find someone else.. with 700+ mutant vehicles out there,.. it aint like theres a shortage of fuckwads who would take money to allow one of these businesses to operate and provide amenities for the clients )

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:37 pm

http://www.blackrockarts.org/grants/grant-criteria

is this what you mean?

Post by **Savannah** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:40 pm

lemur wrote:(ok no not really.. i think this shit is stupid and even though it seems like the original poster is already sending off paypal/bank account numbers and drawing up a contract.. i still suggest he say "NO, FUCK OFF OFF ASSHOLES"... but yep, yer right, if they dont get him to take the money, theyll find someone else.. with 700+ mutant vehicles out there,.. it aint like theres a shortage of fuckwads who would take money to allow one of these businesses to operate and provide amenities for the clients )

When someone says "If you don't do [iffy thing], I'll just get someone else to do it", my favorite response is, "You're right. Why are you still here?"

And why are they? Because yeah, they can find someone else . . . but they want you to make it easy. To hell with that.

It's irrelevant whether someone else will do it. That's no reason to do anything. I either 1) really want to rent my Mutant Vehicle and I should own that decision (like an adult) or 2) I don't want to, with good reason(s), and therefore really shouldn't.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:42 pm

http://www.burningman.com/installations ... lines.html

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:15 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:Perhaps my moral compass isn't pointing directly north, but I agree with your buddy in this individual case.

And I agree with the doc. Just don't tell anybody what the vehicle is.

BBadger · Post by **BBadger** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:55 pm

TomServo wrote:
BBadger wrote:What more, what if someone not from an PnP camp asked to rent the vehicle, with the same cost/conditions, but to transport physically disabled people? Is the decision now justified because you think you're doing it for a good cause? The vehicle is still being "rented" out in either case. Are the principles more important than pragmatic decisions?
They wouldn't need to rent an MV for disabled. DMV gives permits for disabled burners. I doubt renting a MV would be much of an issue, if the customer wasn't already making money off other burners.

Er, that wasn't meant to be a specific case, but more of an example. Replace "physically disabled people" with "whatever cause most people would consider good." The question posed is more to ask if renting MVs--for money or trade--is only reprehensible in the context of PnP camps, or does it also extend to any people or camps, including those whom are considered a worthy cause. Aaand the point of that question is more to point out the moral gray area these kinds of situations often reside in.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:28 am

WHAT MOTIVATES YOU TO GO TO TTITD?

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:41 am

Trishntek wrote:WHAT MOTIVATES YOU TO GO TO TTITD?

Topless 14 year olds....DUH!

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:54 am

BBadger wrote:
TomServo wrote:
BBadger wrote:What more, what if someone not from an PnP camp asked to rent the vehicle, with the same cost/conditions, but to transport physically disabled people? Is the decision now justified because you think you're doing it for a good cause? The vehicle is still being "rented" out in either case. Are the principles more important than pragmatic decisions?
They wouldn't need to rent an MV for disabled. DMV gives permits for disabled burners. I doubt renting a MV would be much of an issue, if the customer wasn't already making money off other burners.
Er, that wasn't meant to be a specific case, but more of an example. Replace "physically disabled people" with "whatever cause most people would consider good." The question posed is more to ask if renting MVs--for money or trade--is only reprehensible in the context of PnP camps, or does it also extend to any people or camps, including those whom are considered a worthy cause. Aaand the point of that question is more to point out the moral gray area these kinds of situations often reside in.

I wouldn't do it. If it's not my art, why would I show it off like it's mine? The fact that P&P camps are already involved in something pretty reprehensible, is only compounded by the act of borrowing someone else's creativity. Renting it for the greater good of the community? I doubt it.

BeachBum · Post by **BeachBum** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:52 pm

driver8,

If you do this, please be aware that the Plug/Pay & Play camp owner will be required to file a 1040 schedule C listing his payment to you, including your SSN on form 1040-MISC if the payment is over $600. If the Plug/Pay & Play camp is a 501c(3) non-profit (doubtful), they will also be filing a tax return, listing it's payment to you. Both of these filing statuses have high audit rates. You must file a 1040 schedule C accounting for this income, and pay taxes on it, including self-employment tax. You also need to obtain a Nevada DOT vehicle-for-hire license, and pay the appropriate license fees and taxes. This license, or rather, lack of a license, is what shut down the BRC-Reno airport shuttle a few years ago. As well as you must pay the BMORG 3% fee that the BLM is requiring for any "commerce" that is happening on BLM lands. Just be aware that many people are sufficiently PO'ed at the commercialization/Disneylandification of BRC via Plug/Pay & Play camps, and by the destruction of the former principles of radical self-reliance and non-commoditization, to report you to the IRS, Nevada DOT, and the BLM if you do not do so.

Best wishes.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:08 am

You're new here, aren't you. Please provide cites.

BeachBum · Post by **BeachBum** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:30 am

Cites for Bob: IRS Pub 525, IRS "Reporting Miscellaneous Income, FS-2007-26, November 2007", and the BM discussion on why the BRC-Reno airport shuttle was shut down unexpectedly a few years ago mid-event leaving many people temporarily stranded. As for the 3% BLM fee collected by the BMORG, for "commerce" on BLM lands, check out the audio for the Theme Camp Meeting last week, it was a quick mention according to a report on ePlaya. I made one typo in the post a few minutes ago, the form is a 1099-MISC, not 1040-MISC, sorry. And, just for info, I'm not new. Best wishes.

moonrise · Post by **moonrise** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:37 am

..........Pitchforks and Torches! ......Arrrrrg!....

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