Low Income Ticket Program

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by trilobyte » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:16 am

Of course, it was to be expected. It happens every year, most get blocked but some squeak through. That doesn't mean I have to like it, or the people who do it.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by junglesmacks » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:57 am

ygmir wrote:how do you afford a week at Coa*%*$ and still qualify, and get, a LI ticket?

I'm seeing more and more, folks getting them, that seem well able to "go regular"........but just don't want to.......or use it as a "back up plan".........at the expense of truly deserving.

Thank you. I mentally screamed the same thing at the monitor when I saw that. Disgusting.


For the love of dog.. abolish this joke of a program next year along with the tier system.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by BBadger » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:16 am

I can still see the purpose behind the tiers and the LIP, even if the pricing gradations don't seem that useful. The tier program makes it where you can choose the maximum price you want, at the cost of reduced probability that you'll get a ticket at all. The LIP uses income as a means to segregate out people with provably higher income, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to actual means. I don't think it's necessarily harmful to have the tiers. As for the LIP, if it is intended to be only-resort, then it needs to take place simultaneously with the lottery. It can still be gamed, but at least it won't become a second-chance type of program.

Not to get into conspiracy theories or whatnot, but perhaps the LIP was meant to be a second-chance program, with the idea that the increased price of the tiers this year would reduce demand, but become cost-prohibitive for more people who would need the LIP. It didn't work out that way of course.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:29 am

Hey Incubus, take your coachella ticket and shove it up your low income hole.


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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by junglesmacks » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:48 am

*screen wipes*

BBadger wrote:As for the LIP, if it is intended to be only-resort, then it needs to take place simultaneously with the lottery. It can still be gamed, but at least it won't become a second-chance type of program.
This is an absolutely fantastic idea. Seriously. I like this.. a lot.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by 5280MeV » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:44 am

This just underscores the fact that $400 is not a lot of money relative to a serious, major, week-long vacation for a resident of the continental US.

If you really want to jump in the lottery, all you have to do is check your mail, fill out the form for the credit card, get the number, and plug it into the lottery website. Done. Unless your credit is so horrifically shredded that you cannot even get a $500 line, in which case you have much bigger problems.

Going to burning man is a loss of about six days of work, which at 8 hours a day, federal minimum wage, minus payroll taxes, is $321.90. So you must be able to give up over $300 to go to burning man in the first place.

The difference in cost between a Tier-3 and Low Income ticket is just over 4 days work at federal minimum wage, or less in most states. All you have to do is get a night job for two weeks, mow lawns, stuff envelopes, or make a few dozen of those little clay pots with a cork stopper that say "unanswered prayers" or something else cutesy or ironic, and you will have plenty of money for a ticket.

The idea that Low Income Tickets are for people who literally cannot get a $500 prepaid VISA in their hand with two months notice is preposterous, since the ability to get such a card actually has little to do with ones annual income for the vast majority of Americans. Being poor does not preclude people from throwing away up to $500 on single purchases. If you want to become depressed, take a look at just how often economically disadvantaged people throw away this amount of money on a nearly regular basis.

If we start to scrutinize the behavior of people with low income tickets, we will quickly find that there was some way that they could have afforded a ticket. Text messaging plan? $240/year. Cable television? over $400/year. Light Smoker? over $1000/year. Going to see your friends play at a small local venue and having two beers once a month? over $250/year. Bought a Playstation3? $250. Coffee each morning before work from the local roaster? $500/year. Total cost of owning a dog? $500-1500/year (low end).

Then to complete the reductio ad absurdam - going to see music you love at Coachella - $350 / year.

So are low income ticket holders supposed to sit in a box and not have any fun? Would you be equally outraged if a LIT recipient bought a Playstation, adopted a dog from the shelter, went to see friends play on a regular basis, or smoked?

All of these activities would prove that the LIT recipient did in fact have the ability to come up with $400 for a ticket.

All of this underscores the outright silliness of this whole effort. The vast majority of poor people cannot go to burning man because they are caretakers for aging relatives, are single parents working multiple jobs, are facing medical bankruptcy and have health issues, are fighting addition or mental illness, or a vast number of other difficulties that far outweigh the problem of coming up with $500 on two months notice.

One ticket, one price.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by vargaso » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:30 am

Ha, I kind of like the Coachella low-income girl, if only for the complete naivete and sense of entitlement that she must possess in order for her to boast about her recent Coachella trip while announcing that she received a LIT. You nutty Millennials and your illegal downloading.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by lemur » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:37 am

until this years sell out the lowincome/scholarship programs certainly filled a different space in the ticketing of burning man.... slightly true for last year as well, with people wanting to get lower priced tiers that sold out very quickly..

when you could buy tickets right up until the burn, or at the gate.. you didnt need to game the low income/scholarship system to even /make it/.. if you could afford a higher priced ticket, youd just buy one..

this year for some people with means to buy another ticket one wasnt available to buy... and some of those people certainly gamed the system they likely wouldnt even have applied for if a sellout didnt happen.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by knowmad » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:05 am

incubus_pantomime wrote:I haven't had a chance to write on here because I've been off at Coachella weekend 1 in Indio, CA, but...

I got my low income ticket!!!

Be prepared to many hugs, volunteer effort, playa de-MOOPing, and love coming from me! Now to wait and see if my brother got one. We're going to cross our fingers and know that what will be, will be. :D

GOOD LUCK, FELLOW LIT APPLICANTS! I HOPE EVERYONE GETS THEIR GOLDEN TICKET TO THE PLAYA!
Fuck OFF!
5280MeV wrote:...

All of this underscores the outright silliness of this whole effort. The vast majority of poor people cannot go to burning man because they are caretakers for aging relatives, are single parents working multiple jobs, are facing medical bankruptcy and have health issues, are fighting addition or mental illness, or a vast number of other difficulties that far outweigh the problem of coming up with $500 on two months notice.

One ticket, one price.

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Mv You decribed me to a t.
I didn't even have my shit together enough to aply for a LIT. and it made me ask myself Am I able to Do TTITD?
I know I will be ready come august but will I find the Ticket? will my mental health be helped (as it was in 2009) or injured by attending.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by snardy » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:22 pm

I'm not sure why everyone is shitting on Incubus_whatever for going to Coachella. She could have possibly received a ticket as a gift from friends or relatives. Or perhaps a friend bailed at the last minute. On top of that, it's not hard to minimize expenses at Coachella - camp out in the lot, bring in your own meals, etc. It can be done cheaply, especially if you receive a free ticket.

Would people still be shitting on her if her friend gifted her a $320 ticket to BM this year? I doubt it. Stop being so high & mighty.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by snardy » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:27 pm

PS.com - B_Badger and 5280MeV have the right ideas. The LIT is pretty much a joke. I'm a grad student with minimal income, as I outlined in another post on here. But BM's definition of "poor" is ridiculous. I'd wager that MANY who get an LIT could afford a $240 or a $320 ticket, given a few months to scrape by and plan properly. $390 or $420 is most likely out of reach once you factor in travel & food expenses for someone applying for LIT.

The truly poor are never be able to get to BM because they have neither the TIME nor the MEANS to travel so far into the middle of nowhere for a 7 day vacation. They are single parents working multiple jobs, have serious health issues, caring for sick relatives, or illegal immigrants being worked to the bone for less than minimum wage.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by MyPlayaUserName » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:35 pm

I admit I had the same initial reaction of "you went to Coachella, AND needed a low income ticket", the fact is, it's not my place to count other people's money. For all we know, this girl got in free. Back when I lived in California, I went to Coachella twice and didn't pay either time. There are all kinds of wrist bands and things you can score from nice people in the know (or in my case, a dude who wanted to bang my friend).

Anywyay, still no word on my low income application. I am going mad!!! Does anyone know if they are slowly trickiling in (the responses, that is), or if they have all been issued? Seeing someone on the previous page mention not getting a response, writing in, and getting one, obviously tempts me to attempt to contact someone, but I don't want to be pushy. I just am checking my email a thousand times a day, and every time there;s nothing in it, I feel so deflated!

edit: Trilobyte answered my question in another thread, now I know that NO, all notifications have not been sent out

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by inthecolumbiagorge » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:53 pm

One of our friends would never have applied for a LIT ordinarily, even though he actually does qualify and has a very a low income, (not because he does not work, but because most of the work he does is unpaid but very important) and in fact this is the first year he has applied and he has attended 5 burns so far with his income just about the same over the years. His girlfriend did the application during the lottery for them but they were not lucky. Now they are not together so even if she gets them in step he will not get one and since the BMORG's decision to choose who gets the final 10,000 tickets,he felt the best option he had was to apply for the low income ticket which again he was eligible for. He was lucky and was awarded one and will be participating in his 6th burn thanks to the LIT program. After considering this it seems that people who would normally not try to get a ticket through LIT have little other choice if they still want to go. Just an observation.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by BBadger » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:06 pm

inthecolumbiagorge wrote: After considering this it seems that people who would normally not try to get a ticket through LIT have little other choice if they still want to go. Just an observation.
Yup, which is exactly why the program needs to be fixed to remove that "little other choice" option if people "still want to go."
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by inthecolumbiagorge » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:10 pm

By the way for all the haters that think you cannot go to Coachella if you are low income; They have a payment plan, 10 payments over 10 months that are easy to make even if you are low income, working at Arby's or Burger King, especially if you already live in southern California and the travel costs are not prohibitive. It is not inconceivable that someone who makes very little money can still manage to go to Coachella and possibly Burning Man if awarded a low income ticket or lower tier ticket. For someone with minimal income trying to come up with $390 or $420 all at once could be majorly difficult regardless of how much they want to go or how well they plan. A flat tire when you cannot afford one can be a crisis of major proportion if you need to drive any distance to work, or an uninsured illness, or any unplanned expense really. You all do not know everyone's circumstances but really are quick to judge with tidbits of information that may well not show the whole picture. I personally think one price for a ticket is perhaps more "fair" for the majority but I can understand the LIT program and I personally don't begrudge anyone that got them especially with the ticketing situation this year. Lucky for them!

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by Stephendragonfly » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:16 pm

@MPUN,
Has it been the full and requisite forty two days since you first applied for the low income ticket (LIT)? If so, email them. Unless I am mistaken they are pretty busy in the LIT crypt, reading, analyzing, arguing, laughing, and accepting or rejecting applications. In my case, I waited a couple of extra days before emailing them and then quickly received a response.
Best of Luck to U.

IncubusCoachellaWench struck a nerve in me as well. But then I thought.... Hmm could have been a gift, or she may have been working in a taco tent for zilcho wages, or maybe she volunteered in the medical tent... I don't know how she got in or covered the expense of travelling there from Texas. That said, it was pretty annoying of her to post it here, especially after all the bitterness about the whole ticketing snafu this year. Just inviting snark. Vargaso had it right about the sense of entitlement. Perhaps she has been infected by the holographic TuPac. I wonder if she's going to Lightning in a Bottle and Symbiosis as well....

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by MyPlayaUserName » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:34 pm

It has been 46 days. I might give it a shot tomorrow. I've been told by a moderator they are still notifying folks so I don't see TOO much need to get pushy.

I'd have a more LAX attitude about it all, being that this is Burning Man, but the fact is, we still had to meet our deadlines in getting applications in, and it would be nice if the bureaucracy returned the favor.

In my gut, I am terrified I did not provide enough proof of my low income status. I've never been good at filling out paperwork.

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by gyre » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:47 pm

You guys have really missed the joke!


You can't seriously believe anyone that likes coachella would even want to go to burning man, can you?

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by inthecolumbiagorge » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:11 pm

Oh my...I think you didn't get the joke. EVERYONE wants to go to Burning Man:-)

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by junglesmacks » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:36 pm

Shut up, hippie.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by incubus_pantomime » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:07 pm

Wow, really? Really? And here I thought that Burning Man was about acceptance, particularly of those who want to contribute to the experience and not just sparkle pony their way through the week as a mooch and spectator, which is what I plan to do. Instead of getting really, really pissed off (which is taking quite a bit of control after being called "IncubusCoachellaWench" and being told to "fuck off"), I'm going to apologize and move on.

I meant no ill will, snark or loftiness when I spoke about going to Coachella. I was just excited because I just got back from the festival a couple days ago, and I just typed without thinking. I'm sorry if I made anyone upset, or if I made it seem like I'm not deserving of a low income ticket. I think that inthecolumbiagorge stated it more effectively than I can:
inthecolumbiagorge wrote:By the way for all the haters that think you cannot go to Coachella if you are low income; They have a payment plan, 10 payments over 10 months that are easy to make even if you are low income, working at Arby's or Burger King, especially if you already live in southern California and the travel costs are not prohibitive. It is not inconceivable that someone who makes very little money can still manage to go to Coachella and possibly Burning Man if awarded a low income ticket or lower tier ticket. For someone with minimal income trying to come up with $390 or $420 all at once could be majorly difficult regardless of how much they want to go or how well they plan. A flat tire when you cannot afford one can be a crisis of major proportion if you need to drive any distance to work, or an uninsured illness, or any unplanned expense really. You all do not know everyone's circumstances but really are quick to judge with tidbits of information that may well not show the whole picture. I personally think one price for a ticket is perhaps more "fair" for the majority but I can understand the LIT program and I personally don't begrudge anyone that got them especially with the ticketing situation this year. Lucky for them!
If this is just internet snark and not part of the actual Burning Man experience, then I would still caution that it's not appropriate. I still wish everyone the best of luck, and I hope we can all cry it out collectively on the playa. :D
gyre wrote:You guys have really missed the joke!


You can't seriously believe anyone that likes coachella would even want to go to burning man, can you?
Why yes, I do like some of the aspects of the Coachella quite a bit, and I am even more excited about Burning Man. I met quite a few Burners at Coachella, actually, and they gave me some amazing Burgin tips (mainly at Makeover Mechanix in the campgrounds).
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by lucky420 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:42 am

meh...eplaya is nothing like la playa. This years ticket fiasco has hurt alot of people and some just vent more loudly than others.

Relax and take it with a grain of salt. Don't get your panties bunched up.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by 5280MeV » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:43 am

incubus_pantomime wrote:Wow, really? Really? And here I thought that Burning Man was about acceptance
Technically yes, although the rules of human psychology apply here as anywhere else. If you lie, cheat and steal (which is the accusation) from a group of people they tend to get upset. Personally, I don't really care in this case, as I think that the stated qualifications for a low income ticket are silly, but it is pretty obvious why people are upset.
incubus_pantomime wrote:I meant no ill will, snark or loftiness when I spoke about going to Coachella. I was just excited because I just got back from the festival a couple days ago, and I just typed without thinking. I'm sorry if I made anyone upset, or if I made it seem like I'm not deserving of a low income ticket.
I don't know if you actually owe anyone an apology. If someone had bought you a plane ticket and Coachella ticket, then everyone else owes you a pretty big apology.

In any case, this is the wrong apology. It is like when the state apologizes for the release of some photos showing government agents behaving illegally, rather than apologizing for the illegal actions themselves.
incubus_pantomime wrote:If this is just internet snark and not part of the actual Burning Man experience, then I would still caution that it's not appropriate.
No, this is not snark. Those people are actually pissed off.

The low income ticket page says that "These tickets are reserved for participants on a limited income who cannot otherwise afford our regular lowest priced ticket. Please only apply for a Low Income Ticket if you truly need one."

In case it is not already obvious, the mob has assumed that you purchased a Coachella ticket for at least $285 dollars, meaning that you clearly had the ability to purchase a regular price ticket to burning man, and therefore scammed the community and took advantage of its goodwill.

Technically, one could argue that they could not afford a Burning Man ticket because they had just bought a Coachella ticket - which is so against the spirit of the thing that it is funny.

Really, I wish that they would just revisit this definition of low income and replace it with something sensible, like 1.33x the federal poverty guidelines, and probably exclude traditional full time students whose annual income has nothing to do with their socioeconomic status or purchasing power, and then everyone would not be compelled to judge the financial decisions and vacations taken by low income ticket holders.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by BBadger » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:29 am

5280MeV wrote:Really, I wish that they would just revisit this definition of low income and replace it with something sensible, like 1.33x the federal poverty guidelines, and probably exclude traditional full time students whose annual income has nothing to do with their socioeconomic status or purchasing power, and then everyone would not be compelled to judge the financial decisions and vacations taken by low income ticket holders.
And then we'd have the people that hide their money in other accounts, who take WIC baby formula and sell it at Chinese markets (yes, if you see that out-of-place product there it is often for that reason), people of the richest generation who have already accumulated their wealth but don't have job-incomes anymore. Gaming these systems is easy.

Then on the other hand are the people for whom high "absolute" income (such as 1.33x the poverty level) does not reflect actual relative living expenses. Take for example the increased salary budget for BMOrg's staff. From $3 Million to $7 million in one year. Part of that is supposed to have to do with the cost of living in certain areas, such as San Francisco. It costs much more to live there than, say, Reno. Some people can even earn more than their previous jobs, but because they lose some government benefits they stand to lose more than they earn in income.

In the end, I find the LIT ineffectual and relatively pointless, and have I've already gone on long rants about it. Even without abuses, and with perfect means testing, I don't even think the pricing gradations are even wide enough that it's worth all the effort in trying to plow through all the means testing. It's $230 between LIT and the highest regular price tier (or $260 to the presale price); that's not a huge amount on what constitutes a luxury vacation even for "low income" earning people.

I'm starting to get on board with the idea that tiers are basically useless, even the LIT which is a "tier", and we ought to have just one single pricing tier if we're not going to allow people to try and get in line early to get cheaper tickets.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by incubus_pantomime » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:28 am

5280MeV wrote: I don't know if you actually owe anyone an apology. If someone had bought you a plane ticket and Coachella ticket, then everyone else owes you a pretty big apology.

In any case, this is the wrong apology. It is like when the state apologizes for the release of some photos showing government agents behaving illegally, rather than apologizing for the illegal actions themselves.
You know, you're right. Coachella is something I attend every year with my father, and he pays for a majority of the event. He paid for the remaining balance of my plane ticket, and I pay him for my ticket in installments, which I usually finish paying for months prior to the event. What I'm saying is, money for Coachella was handed out long before Burning Man, and I'm only able to attend the event because I'm lucky enough to have this bonding experience with my father. I shouldn't have apologized because there is nothing to apologize for. Coachella is essentially gifted to me, and I appreciate it more than I can say. Take your animosity and please direct it somewhere else, because I don't deserve it.

Burning Man is something I'm attending of my own volition, and thus my own finances, which are very, very limited. I considered the cost of my ticket along with the cost of everything else (food, water, plane ticket, rental car/rideshare money, supplies, etc), and the prices in the lottery were not something I was able to financially accommodate, and thus I waited for the low income program. I'm not going to explain it further, I did not cheat the system, and it is not nice to use me as your punching bag when you know nothing about my finances or any aspect of my personal life. I want to remain positive, and I do wish that everyone could get a ticket and attend the event, regardless of income. I hope that I'm able to meet all of you on the playa so that I can prove every last one of your wrong; I'd like to show you all how much Burning Man means to me, and how much I'm willing to truly integrate myself into this experience and share the love I feel.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:35 am

it aint about you....it's about coachella....


that is all.
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by inthecolumbiagorge » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:48 am

Unfortunately you will still find haters here Incubus. Just realize you cannot please all the people all the time and here virtually on eplaya I think the odds are worse than in our physical world which sort of sucks but it is what it is. As on every message board too many people feel it is appropriate to be hateful and anything to do with ticketing here this year seems to get to peoples bad side right from the get go. The LIT program was created for a reason and obviously the people in charge of it thought you were a reasonable candidate for the low income ticket you got so if anyone is displeased with you getting a ticket their anger should be directed at the BMORG, not the people that were awarded tickets, but since bitching seems to be normal here I am sure this will get some grumbling too. I personally think for ticketing to be fair tickets should all be the same price and maybe use the layaway option like Coachella that actually gives folks with less income a possibility to purchase one, but that is just my opinion and obviously I do not have a voice with BMORG. Enjoy the fact that you were lucky enough to get a ticket and have a blast on the playa this year! You have no reason to feel bad and really these people have no reason to try to make you feel bad, but some of them still will and I doubt there are any words to change that:-/

On another note....We will be doing makeovers with the same mindset and principles inspired by Makeover Mechanix in our theme camp and I think Burning Man is the perfect place for it:-)

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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by KrisMuffin » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:55 am

inthecolumbiagorge wrote:Unfortunately you will still find haters here Incubus. Just realize you cannot please all the people all the time and here virtually on eplaya I think the odds are worse than in our physical world which sort of sucks but it is what it is. As on every message board too many people feel it is appropriate to be hateful and anything to do with ticketing here this year seems to get to peoples bad side right from the get go. The LIT program was created for a reason and obviously the people in charge of it thought you were a reasonable candidate for the low income ticket you got so if anyone is displeased with you getting a ticket their anger should be directed at the BMORG, not the people that were awarded tickets, but since bitching seems to be normal here I am sure this will get some grumbling too. I personally think for ticketing to be fair tickets should all be the same price and maybe use the layaway option like Coachella that actually gives folks with less income a possibility to purchase one, but that is just my opinion and obviously I do not have a voice with BMORG. Enjoy the fact that you were lucky enough to get a ticket and have a blast on the playa this year! You have no reason to feel bad and really these people have no reason to try to make you feel bad, but some of them still will and I doubt there are any words to change that:-/

On another note....We will be doing makeovers with the same mindset and principles inspired by Makeover Mechanix in our theme camp and I think Burning Man is the perfect place for it:-)
Thank you for this. These boards are mostly filled with written words and there's so much more to communication than that. So much is lost in translation, and people can get really nasty really fast. I'd don't know if there's a "suggestion box" but a payment system is great idea.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - W. Wonka

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:04 am

ready, one more time...

it aint about her, it's about Coachella.

and it's not about Jealousy, it's about Honesty...perhaps daddy could have also helped her out to Burning Man, No?

this is rather silly, and i'm sorry incubus if you cant take the snark in the kitchen here, but by announcing your good fortune you have brought this upon yourself...there is a more than just a touch of hypocrisy in the whole situation, perhaps we do not know all the details, as that would mean we are omniscient, and on wed-friday, we tend not to be.

however, i also think that the amount of money spent on your coachella visit kinda sticks in the craw of those who do not have that option, and are actually scraping to get by, dont get to go on vacations, and for them Burning Man is almost a pilgrimage that they work and scrimp for all year in order to go.

to cry poverty while sipping champagne is at the very least, in bad form..
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ygmir
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Re: Low Income Ticket Program

Post by ygmir » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:06 am

sure a payment system.......no, how about being radically self reliant, and saving your money, yourself?
knowing, you want to go, and knowing about how much it'll cost.

this is not about hand holding.
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