Questions about Dubstep

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5280MeV
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by 5280MeV » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:37 pm

junglesmacks wrote:Who says that this music can't ever be played by live instruments?
Yea you can certainly play the notes in order, and reinterpret the music with an orchestra (which is pretty cool).

More what I mean to get at is that there is not a physical instrument (loudspeaker excluded) that can produce a bassline with the approximate timber of the actual dubstep track. Or if there is I really want to hear it.

Dubstep and other EDM producers are not just laying down sequences of notes, they are designing the actual waveforms - setting up sawtooth waves, square waves, filtering, detuning, and altering the timbre in a huge variety of ways. There isn't just a keyboard that you can press keys and get the specific sound you want, although as dubstep gains popularity I imagine that there are starting to be factory presets that mimic the sound of Skrillex and others.

My point is that the general audience expects in a live performance to see the way the note was actually produced, to hear it played as it was in the studio. They think that they want the music created again right in front of them. The problem is that the music was never created like that - if you wanted a true 'live performance' I imagine that you would sit there listening to the producer adjust waveforms for three hours straight and giggle every now and then.

I think that this video shows a bit of what is going on, although it makes it look easy:

[youtube][/youtube]

I dabbled in trying to do this for a few afternoons before there were tutorials like this and got nowhere. Its complicated.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Wrath » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:46 pm

Zeke Chaparral wrote:I do know some musicians who have said that the audience reaction to their music causes them to alter what and the way they play. In this sense, players of live instruments provide an interactive experience for the audience.
Good DJs totally play the crowd.

My issue is with DJs who don't compose their own music and think they're rock stars. Personally I don't produce any of the tracks I play out, but I consider myself closer to a librarian than a rock star.

Learning to mix tracks together or work a drum machine can take weeks. Compiling a database of music, using that music to work a crowd into a frenzy, changing your mind as to which track would be better to play next, with only a minute or less to do so, with said crowd staring at you, can take years.

[youtube][/youtube]

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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:50 pm

you should see my collection of rothko's

i made them myself.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by CornMan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Man, you guys are ruining my troll with intelligent discussion. :D

I think I would take a dubstep course if they offered it as a music class at the community college. I don't aim to be a dj. I didn't aim to be a rock musician either, but I still took guitar lessons.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by 5280MeV » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:31 pm

Wrath wrote: My issue is with DJs who don't compose their own music and think they're rock stars. Personally I don't produce any of the tracks I play out, but I consider myself closer to a librarian than a rock star.
My issue is with rock stars who think that they are rock stars. The whole concept is terrible - it is bad for the artist, and bad for everyone else. The artist doesn't have to be revered as some sort of self-destructive hero.

Library science is also an art, and an important one.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:47 pm

i've moved on to Modigliani's


oh, fuck....nevermind.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:01 pm

I've always felt Schiele was a very fine artist.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Drawingablank » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:16 pm

Esher meets Dali was more my style when I did flat stuff, these days of sculpting it really has no influences.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Eric » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:58 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I've always felt Schiele was a very fine artist.
We were lucky enough to see "Van Gogh and the Expressionists" in NYC way back in 2007, and one of the joys of that show was standing 2' away from a Schiele ("The Artist’s Bedroom in Neulengbach") hanging right next to Van Gogh's "Room at Arles". Best part- no pushy crowds, no shoving, just the ability to stand in front of them for 5 or 10 minutes without bothering anyone or being bothered. Sigh.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Eric » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:46 am

5280MeV wrote:What is discussed here is computerized music - and this music in most cases was never played by a human, never will be played by a human, and in some cases may not be possible to be played by a human using any combination of known physical instruments. So when the notes come out, it simply doesn't matter if it is being played "live" in any sense - the signal sent to the speaker is identical no matter if it is being generated by the computer now, or it was recorded earlier. The computer is perfect. One can cart in all their production gear and press go, or just throw in a CD and press go. There really is no meaning to the traditional concept of a live performance.
Forgot to address this- don't confuse all "computerized music" with stuff in a dance club. One of my closest friends from years ago (who I've mostly fallen out of touch with since he moved across country- sad face) is half of Matmos, a very experimental found-noise & electronic (& live instruments and whatever else they find) that can absolutely play what they create live, and not by following some "insert noise A here" guidebook. Granted, there are definitely sounds they can't create live (like surgery on one of them), but they can take those sounds and manipulate them live in concert. Any decent artist can, and their songs can sound different live from the one on the album, and from show to show. Thinking they just "cart in their equipment and push go" is just more in the vein of "my 6 year-old can paint that".

Just because some artists lipsync in concert doesn't mean all of them do, just because some "electronic" musicians just play pre-recorded tracks doesn't mean all of them do.

Now I'm going back to listening to Tuvan throat singing

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5280MeV
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by 5280MeV » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:13 am

Matmos is fantastic, and I would love to see one of their shows. I don't fully agree that what they are doing is playing music live in the same sense that a rock band plays their music live - i.e. they essentially replicate the process of what happens in a studio take. In the rock band, they pluck strings and bang drums so that there is a physical motion associated with each note.

The sequencer really does fundamentally change the game. People are not playing individual notes, although they may be manipulating the music improvisationally in a very interesting and skilled way, there is still an element of automated playback. Some non-human device is "playing" the sequence of notes for you. If you are used to the expectations of a rock concert, then you might feel cheated.

I also don't think that you need to be able to perform live to be a great composer/producer. What Matmos has to say for their own live show is interesting:
Martin- When we first started doing this, when we first started making music, and then someone liked our songs…well if you make music in your bedroom, and you talk to someone at a bar and you say “Oh yea I make music.” Among their first questions is always going to be “Well when and where are you going to play?” Because this business of playing music live is part of making music, in people’s minds. If you’re going to sell CDs you have to play music live, or generally that’s considered a good thing to do. We were faced with the question of what would we do live, because so much of what we do is about hunching in front of a computer, and editing stuff. Or at the most exciting playing a keyboard…not the most fascinating thing to watch live.

Drew- Because we don’t really have musical chops, we don’t have performance chops in the way that real musicians do. We’re self-taught.

Martin- We can’t juggle. Watching someone play guitar really well is like watching a great trick. It’s like “Wow. That person can do all those things,” and you see it live. Neither of us are musicians at all. Fortunately we had this built in shtick of we make the music out of the objects. So, it seemed fairly obvious to us that what we should do is make the sound of the object live.

Drew- Play the processes that generated the composition. So that it is like a cooking show where you’ve got the cooked thing as a sort of structural spine to play against, but you’re also re-enacted the whole process that made the piece in the first place.

Martin- And so it becomes performance art, which is to say there is someone doing something on stage besides playing a musical instrument.
I think that this is great.

As far as just getting on stage and pressing go, further along the interview is interesting:
Martin- It’s a good shtick. It beats the fuck out of someone checking their email live, on stage. Which is what so much electronic music…I was always shocked that people actually, even some of my friends, musicians I really enjoy, actually had the fucking balls to go out there and stand on stage with a lab top and do nothing.

Drew- But some people you sense from the way they seem to be listening and changing what they’re doing, a lab top performance can be responsive live…

Martin- There’s some conceptual art right there. “I believe your doing something…”

Drew- But I’ve seen good and I’ve seen bad. I mean I’ve seen lab top shows were I was quit satisfied, and lab top shows were I was quit frustrated. It all comes down to how was the sound system, how responsive and flowing did the performance seem to be? But yea, you are taking it a little bit on faith that their process is real, and they aren’t just pressing play. With us that is less of an issue, because we are showing people gesturally what we do. But we are going to have to face it again when we start to play the all-electronic material. But for us…

Martin- It’s also why I show videos.

Drew- Yea, to shut people up.
http://auralstates.com/2008/02/matmos-i ... artin.html


I think that the real problem with Skrillex has nothing to do with his ability as a composer/producer, and arguably little to do with his ability to add improvisational elements to his work and respond to a crowd.

The real issue is one of showmanship and expectation. The nature of the music is not being communicated to the audience, and people still expect the musician to "play" instruments in terms of pressing keys or plucking strings to make each note. They need to let go of this notion as in many cases no one ever hit keys to make the notes in real time. If what is coming out of the speakers is unique, and everyone is having a good time, then is there really a problem?

At the same time, if the producer wants to advertise a "live show", then they need to be a bit careful about what exactly constitutes the show. Standing in front of a laptop is boring. If the music is very much dance music, then the need for there to be anything going on visually interesting on stage is somewhat mitigated - the people may be more interested in dancing than watching. If the people are staring at the stage, then they expect something interesting to happen on stage. If the performer stands in front of a laptop smoking a cigarette, then some people may feel cheated.
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by stinkyfoot » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:34 am

5280MeV wrote: The problem is that the music was never created like that - if you wanted a true 'live performance' I imagine that you would sit there listening to the producer adjust waveforms for three hours straight and giggle every now and then.
I dated a music theorist once.


Here's my explanation of dubstep:

Interesting sounds +
Syncopated beats @ ~140BPM=
Dubstep

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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Bounce530 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:11 pm

Remember these videos that play Dubstep on "real" instruments?

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:57 pm

Bounce530 wrote:Remember these videos that play Dubstep on "real" instruments?

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Bounce530 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:09 pm

What about creepy winking guitar guy?
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Re: Questions about Dubstep

Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:54 pm

It's only creepy if it doesn't turn you on.

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