Black rocks: What does it take to drill these damn things?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:42 pm

There are a few cheap drill press out there Bi Mart, Harbor frite. You woul need one that has a stack of pullys on the drive and arbor. That is how change the speeds. Some times you will have to buy another pully

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:52 am

unjonharley wrote:There are a few cheap drill press out there Bi Mart, Harbor frite. You woul need one that has a stack of pullys on the drive and arbor. That is how change the speeds. Some times you will have to buy another pully

Yeah, we have one like that at work but it goes down to only ~650 RPM. I guess I'll just have to go look at them. Thanks!

symbolsimon · Post by **symbolsimon** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:23 am

Howdy,
Wet drilling with diamond bits in your Dremel is the way to go. Most of the time Harbor Freight is the place to get them pretty cheaply. Also at gem and mineral shows in the area that lapidary supplies are being sold.
Be sure to plug into a socket with a ground fault indicator (GFI) to minimize the chance of getting a shock while wet-drilling. When I drill stones for pendants, I mark where I want the holes with a felt pen, and then use a bit with a ball-shaped head on it to grind a little dimple as a starter place so when I begin the drilling, the bit doesn't skid all over the place, usually coming to rest somewhere whithin my thumb or forefinger.
The bits to use for the initial hole should be flat on the end, not pointed, because what you're doing is pushing a small hole through the stone. Actually, about 3/4 of the way thru, then go to the other side and drill in to make the holes meet. Once you're thru, you can use a bit with a larger diameter, or a cone shape, to ream the hole out to fit the size cord you use.
Feel free to get back to me with any questions that may come up. I sand blast artwork from ancient cultures into stone and make a lot of pendants.
Peace,
Jimbo

------------------------------------------------------------

" I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."
Yogi(smarter than the average) Berra

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:07 pm

geekster wrote:...BRC is not built in exactly the same spot every year (or at least that is my understanding)...

Speaking strictly, the BRC center and perimeter (ie points defining the pentagon) per the BLM permit docs has not changed since 2000 --

http://www.nv.blm.gov/winnemucca/recrea ... t_2000.pdf

The as-built accuracy might vary a bit here and there, and from year to year -- no more than about 50-odd feet I'd estimate, depending on typical geodetic and GPS user issues, and what you might call the Paisano Factor. Once the major points are staked, the street grid is surveyed in using an antique railroad transit, rangefinders, chains, fiberglass tapes, line-of-sight and suchlike. It's not like we're dealing in swamp land in Florida or mining claims on Sedna.

Sorry we left all that ejecta on the playa. Don't have any idea who told Jim Mason that DPW would pick up his after his Nebulous Caldera art project, but burning through a few dozen pairs of cheap gloves you might say we all threw up our hands.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm

symbolsimon wrote:Howdy,
Wet drilling with diamond bits in your Dremel is the way to go.

Thanks! I have an update. I got some tungsten carbide drill bits online and tried them and they work great (after trying regular steel bits I was surprised). They're really brittle and break easily if you put too much pressure on them but at 5,000 RPM + water, they work great. The cool thing about that is that I can bring the dremel out in 2005 and make necklaces on the spot.

I do have a question though: what's a better coolant/lubricant than water?

Also, if I'm drilling holes in order to attach a screw eye, what's a good cement to use? I tried some E6000 but the attachment is somewhat pliable (it appears that the epoxy didn't cure as hard as I thought it would).

Thanks!

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:53 pm

Oh yeah, and, what's a good type of vise to use to hold the rocks while drilling? The drill press vise I got is too big.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:09 pm

DallasPlaya wrote: Also, if I'm drilling holes in order to attach a screw eye, what's a good cement to use? I tried some E6000 but the attachment is somewhat pliable (it appears that the epoxy didn't cure as hard as I thought it would).

This is one of those places where it's best not to reinvent the wheel. I checked out a few jewelry supply places on line

a bead store

my usual bead store

a fairly well know supplier

or you could go directly for industrial adhesives

A serious shop for more than mere hobbiests.
Notice that they have phone numbers. Call and ask.

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:28 pm

Oil is best for drilling steel, it's probably the same for rocks.

Would a soldering vise be strong enough to resist the drill pressure?

Try this adhesive site.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:48 pm

Hey, DallasPlaya ... you sent me some stones from the playa and I am ready to tumble them, I just wanted you to know that one of them is not a piece of volcanic andesite, it is a meteorite. I will keep that one separate from the others and not run it through the process.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:34 am

I just wanted you to know that one of them is not a piece of volcanic andesite, it is a meteorite.

Iron or chondrite? I'm guessing the latter.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:50 am

It is very weakly attracted by a magnet. It has a fusion crust that was broken in one place. There are some ablative pits on the surface. There appear to be a few tiny flecks of something shiny where the crust is broken. The compsition where the crust is broken appears almost like a sintered mass. It is almost as if individual grains can be seen but I need to look at under some magnification. The entire thing is small, less than 1 inch around.

Probably an L Chondrite.

calsur · Post by **calsur** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:13 am

Here is my 2 cents on this issue. And I have never tried to drill there rocks.

Vice: Get one with the gripping surfaces that are removable. You can then replace the metal surface with a more pliable substance like red silicon or Teflon sheet stock cut to fit. Or use wood blocks to grip the rock. I do not know how much pressure the rock can take so use your own judgment.

Drill bits: Titanium Nitride bits. Try these as they are what I had to use on Inconel and Stellite, some really hard stuff. You will need to go to a industrial tool supplier to get the good ones and when you ask about pricing ask for “jobbers packs”. The jobbers packs are normally 6 to a pack in the small size (under ¼”) and way cheaper than trying to buy one at a time.

Coolant: This actually does 2 things. It cools the tool and work and transports chips away from the work. I use to use a animal fat based coolant available at the afore mentioned industrial tool supplier and it had the advantage of being disposable down the drain in the shop as there where no hydrocarbons in it and it was water based. The disadvantage was it was only available in 1 gallon jugs in a concentrated form and was a bit pricy, about 30 bucks a gallon. If I remember right one jug made 500 gallons of coolant.

Coolant 2: It is really easy to make an automatic gravity feed coolant feeder. All you need is a used 1 gallon milk carton (plastic), a ¼” barb fitting, 2 feet of ¼” tube and a ¼” valve. All the fittings except the milk carton are available at your local pet store with the aquarium supplies.

Here is what you do. Make a wood frame to support the milk carton above your work area. Punch a hole for the barb fitting and seal with silicone caulk. Add the tubing with the barb at one end and the valve at the other. Add a piece of tubing to the output end of the valve and you have a cheap cooling system, normally under 10 bucks. My other trick is to use a disposable foil turkey roasting to collect the drippings and strain the coolant through cheese cloth to remove chips before reusing it. Hint: Store the roasting pan someplace where it will not be use to roast a turkey.

Drill Presses: I use to have a drill press that you would put your hand drill into. I have no idea if these are still made or if they would help.

Enjoy!

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:07 am

geekster wrote:Hey, DallasPlaya ... you sent me some stones from the playa and I am ready to tumble them, I just wanted you to know that one of them is not a piece of volcanic andesite, it is a meteorite. I will keep that one separate from the others and not run it through the process.

Whoah. How do you know?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:17 am

calsur wrote:Here is my 2 cents on this issue. And I have never tried to drill there rocks.

Thanks! But I think I finally got the process down.

What I do now is use tungsten carbide bits (between 1.5 and 3mm, purchased off the internet) and the drill press at 650 RPM (the lowest I can get it to go). What will also work, I've found, is a regular speed-adjustable drill at a slow speed. This is actually working better than the diamond drill bits (as the diamond coating tends to peel off easily).

I tried a dremel with water cooling but it was just spinning way too fast (the additional speed wasn't helping) and getting way too hot (and I don't like that you can't easily turn a dremel on and off like you can a drill press or hand drill).

I'll start giving away the necklaces I've already made here on eplaya next week. Anyone can PM me if you're interested in getting one and I'll tell you where you can see the pictures from which to choose one.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:14 am

DallasPlaya wrote:
geekster wrote:Hey, DallasPlaya ... you sent me some stones from the playa and I am ready to tumble them, I just wanted you to know that one of them is not a piece of volcanic andesite, it is a meteorite. I will keep that one separate from the others and not run it through the process.
Whoah. How do you know?

I think that post about attraction to magnet and the "ablative pits" is the clue. He obviously knows something more than I do.

symbolsimon · Post by **symbolsimon** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:26 pm

DallasPlaya wrote:
symbolsimon wrote:Howdy,
Wet drilling with diamond bits in your Dremel is the way to go.

quote]
I do have a question though: what's a better coolant/lubricant than water?[

There's something called Bit Life for diamond bits. Rio Grande is a jewelry and lapidary supply outfit, and they provide pretty extensive catalogs for free. check it out.
I do all my drilling hand-held and us a small sliding-bar clamp with thick leather glued to the jaws. I have a few pieces of drip irrigation tubing and valves connected to the garden hose with a quick-disconnect. A redwood 2x6 spans my deep sink(a 50 gal. poly barrel and a sump pump) and acts as a rest for both arms as I drill with water dripping on the piece.
The diamond peeling off the bit is a sign of too much pressure and/or heat, usually the result of wanting to make a hole faster than the bit wants to. I no longer have that problem though, because I have become one with the Stone People and now move at the rate of erosion.
I will try the carbide bits. I can see how they might be more efficient on softer stones, but on the hard ones...I'm surprised.
I just thought of a huge resource for you. Join your local gem and mineral club. Besides the wealth of info and experience, most clubs have a shop you can use.
Would you send me a scrap piece of the material that's giving you all these growth opportunities? I wanna play too.
In sTone
PO Box 594
Kenwood, CA 95452
Thanks,
Peace,
Vote,
Jim Strand

"elixir because he likes her."

symbolsimon · Post by **symbolsimon** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:31 pm

one more thing...
Rio Grande also has jeweler's glue.

" I feel more like I do now, than I did when I came in."

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:35 pm

symbolsimon wrote:one more thing...
Rio Grande also has jeweler's glue.

I provided the link under "a well know (sic) supplier" in a post on the lprevious page.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:19 pm

Sure wish you could provide a JPEg.

I'm also thinking a precipitate although I definitely defer to your evaluation.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:11 pm

I will post a pic later. It is at school right now taking pictures of a halloween parade.

It is not as dense as the other stones he provided and looks completely different. It is very very black. Doesn't look like any slag or clinker I have ever seen. It does appear to have the typical fusion crust of a meteorite. I will take some pics tonite and post em.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:48 pm

It is not as dense as the other stones he provided and looks completely different.

The mystery continues. I'd imagine if it were a chondrite that it'd actually be the heaviest of the bunch.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:52 am

Sorry I didn't get the pics taken but the keeper of the camera went to bed early tonite. The density thing is rather subjective since it is also the smallest piece. I guess I could do a specific gravity test but I lack an accurate scale.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:56 am

geekster wrote: I guess I could do a specific gravity test but I lack an accurate scale.

/\
Ask the local drug lab on your block.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:01 pm

Ask the local drug lab on your block.

Aw, they get funny about that sort of thing. I couldn't even get a local drug dealer to give my car a jump start a few years back....

Brian

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:57 pm

Didn't know there were evaporites in meteorites...

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aj ... +evaporite

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:03 pm

Main page cited above:

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/antmet.htm

One sample description from http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/AMN/ ... petdes.htm:

Sample No.: MAC 02701
Location: MacAlpine Hills
Field No.: 14115
Dimensions (cm): 3.0x2.0x2.0
Weight (g): 10.112
Meteorite Type: CM2 Chondrite
MAC02701

Macroscopic Description: Kathleen McBride
75% of the exterior is covered with black fusion crust with polygonal fractures. The interior is a powdery black matrix with evaporites. Some sub mm light colored chondrules are visible.

Thin Section (,2) Description: Tim McCoy, Linda Welzenbach
MAC 02701 - Cross-Polarized Light MAC 02701 - Plane-Polarized Light
Cross-Polarized Light Plane-Polarized Light
The section consists of a few small chondrules (up to 1 mm), mineral grains and CAIs set in a black matrix; sulfide and carbonate grains are present. Olivine compositions are Fa0-41, with a peak at Fa0-1, and orthopyroxene is Fs1-3. The matrix consists dominantly of an Fe-rich serpentine; chondrules are relatively unaltered. The meteorite is a CM2 chondrite.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:30 am

ONe more resource for working with rocks that I forgot. This magazine may or may not be the industry standard, but it's old and respected. It also has a regular question and answer column and a yearly "product guide" issue.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:38 am

Attended a "WasteWise" event yesterday designed to encourage people to think up creative re-uses and keep things out of land fills and someone had some lovely tumbled glass and ceramics.
So, about tumblers. How long does it take to polish something? Would glass and ceramic--softer than most rocks--take less time? Especially as I'm more interested in a matte finish than a shiney gemstone? Is the grit expensive, or can I get away with contruction sand? My sence is that this (a tumbler) is an item often bought and less often used. Does this mean that getting a used one in operable condition by freecycling is good or am I just inventing comforting stories?
Any input appreciated.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:52 pm

Harbor Frite has tumblers for under $20.

Post by **AntiM** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:51 am

I do know it takes all day to tumble things and hard stones with very shiny finishes are a major bitch. Days even for those. This is mostly ancient recollections from working for my brother and a jeweler in the 70s. I do have one of the cheapies from HF sitting in my workroom awaiting some semblence of wellness from me to go to town on it. The grit they sell goes for about $10 a box, but I have no clue what quantities will be required for different materials.

I bet glass will tumble quite nicely. I have a box o' rocks waiting for a trial run.

As I remember, even quality tumblers are noisy and vibrate madly. This is a basement project for me. Right next to the bread mixer.

Black rocks: What does it take to drill these damn things?

hole installation in black rocks

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